If the War stopped in 1940

Originally posted by Ushgarak
(to Bardock)

First of all, yes, it was a tactical error to switch to strategic bombing, but what does that have to do with what we were talking about? You were talking about the fleet- it was out of range of the German bombers.

If the pre-requisite for attack of the UK was air superiority over the British coastline, the Germans HAD it for more than long enough. At one point nearly all the south coast airbases were out of action. They had whatever opportunity that might have afforded. They didn't do it. Why not? They couldn't. Adolf Galland himself describes in detail how there was never going to be any invasion, that it was a total joke and Hitler told him personally that it was basically to scare the English and kill time before moving against Russia.

Meanwhile, Germany still WOULD have been at war against Russia, and their naval production could not match that of the UK at the best of times.

Well I was under the impression it was the Fleet that was bombed, I might have mixed that up though.

The thing is I totally agree that it was impossible at that time, but if there wouldn't have been a war with Russia (which was Hitlers intention), a peace with England might have resulted in Germany building Ships to invade England, I don't think it would have been that way, but it is a possibility. Nazis are megalomaniacs afterall.

Are you sure about that? I think pre WWI Germany was able to keep up and even surpass Britains naval production, I hgave no statistics for WWII so I am not sure about it.

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Oh, no I don't think we would have entered the war if not for Pearl Harbour. Roosevelt allowed Pearl Harbour to occur because he knew that a huge majority of Americans were still feeling the effects of WWI, and had since that time become rabid isolationists. It's one of the reasons that Wilsons attempts to get the US to join the League of Nations were so unsuccessful. Even all those years later, few Americans could see the benefits of our participation in WWI.

We WOULD have entered regardless, ese. Yes, FDR allowed Pearl Harbor to occur for undeniable entrance, and the blame fell heavily on Admiral Kimmel, who was incharge of the Hawaii sector.

If PH, had not happened, FDR's boys likely would have orchestrated something else.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I think pre WWI Germany was able to keep up and even surpass Britains naval production,

❌ Her naval ruled empire ruled, homes. Your unrestricted submarine warfare was an answer to that.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Well I was under the impression it was the Fleet that was bombed, I might have mixed that up though.

The thing is I totally agree that it was impossible at that time, but if there wouldn't have been a war with Russia (which was Hitlers intention), a peace with England might have resulted in Germany building Ships to invade England, I don't think it would have been that way, but it is a possibility. Nazis are megalomaniacs afterall.

Are you sure about that? I think pre WWI Germany was able to keep up and even surpass Britains naval production, I hgave no statistics for WWII so I am not sure about it.

Indeed not, it was the air bases being bombed.

And I do not think we are discussing any scenario here where Germany did not invade Russia, having esbtalished that this was an essential and integral part of any 'Germany at war' scenario.

But even so... no, I am afraid not; the UK fleet was always going to be superior to the German. 20 years of Versailles and available coal and oil apacity made it so.

Of course, oil was the second big reason for Germany to go for Russia.

Meanwhile, in WWI, the Germans had ONE fleet, which barely left its moorings. The UK had to maintain several fleets over the whole world, it was a different story. The Germans were trying to match the UK home fleet only.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
??!

The Germans had been fighting in air wars since the Spanish Civil War. Their training programme was better, they were more experienced and they were fresh from victory, whereas the RAF was fresh from total defeat.

Whoerver told you that fact got it totally wrong. The German pilots were VERY good indeed.

The RAF won because:

1. They started to learn quickly

2. Their organisaion system was better for national defence, whereas the German one was designed for army support

3. We had home ground.

The planes on each side were more or less equal. Spitfires vs. 109s has to be the most even contest in history.

I'm not saying the Luftwaffe wasn't some of the best in the world. But, as the war went on, the RAF were kicking ass. And the Germans had excellent planes, for the time. And, again, if Germany hadn't gotten into a two front war, then the planes would have gotten better and better. And, eventually, the Briish fighting the Germans on their own would have fallen if they continued to refuse peace.

I thought one of the reasons the US entered the war was because one of our Ocean Liners was hit. Full of tourists going to Europe.....Maybe I'm wrong..

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
We WOULD have entered regardless, ese. Yes, FDR allowed Pearl Harbor to occur for undeniable entrance, and the blame fell heavily on Admiral Kimmel, who was incharge of the Hawaii sector.

If PH, had not happened, FDR's boys likely would have orchestrated something else.

Do not call me ese again please.

And this is symantics. But, if not for some massive, Sept. 11th type event that was allowed to take place by the administration, the US would not have entered the war.

Originally posted by debbiejo
I thought one of the reasons the US entered the war was because one of our Ocean Liners was hit. Full of tourists going to Europe.....Maybe I'm wrong..

that was WW1

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Indeed not, it was the air bases being bombed.

And I do not think we are discussing any scenario here where Germany did not invade Russia, having esbtalished that this was an essential and integral part of any 'Germany at war' scenario.

But even so... no, I am afraid not; the UK fleet was always going to be superior to the German. 20 years of Versailles and available coal and oil apacity made it so.

Of course, oil was the second big reason for Germany to go for Russia.

Meanwhile, in WWI, the Germans had ONE fleet, which barely left its moorings. The UK had to maintain several fleets over the whole world, it was a different story. The Germans were trying to match the UK home fleet only.

Ok, I am a layman in that subject so I can't really argue about it.

Originally posted by debbiejo
I thought one of the reasons the US entered the war was because one of our Ocean Liners was hit. Full of tourists going to Europe.....Maybe I'm wrong..

That was the First World War, esa.

As ever with Germany, they had superb designs but no practicality. Their advanced tanks were the best in the world, but they couldn't make them. The same for their planes, jet power and everything- they were just toally impractical without the resources they needed. No, the Germans would never have won that way.

The only other possible argument you could make is that Germany gets the bomb. But I think we are straying too far out the scenario here.

Let's face it, this would have happened- Germany and Russia would have fought each other into the stone age.

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
that was WW1

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Let's face it, this would have happened- Germany and Russia would have fought each other into the stone age.

How would you think that would have occured?

Originally posted by Bardock42
How would you think that would have occured?

Desperation and hatred. Just like when the Red Army invaded Berlin in April 1945, most of the German defenders were either teenaged or elderly.

Because we all know that the HUGE proportion of the fghting in WWII was between Germany and Russia. Take the UK out of the equation and the difference on the East is not that big. Ok, so you have problems with Russian supply, and Germany not needing to fight in Africa and and defend its cities from air attack, and much later in the war, no second front.

But these are peripheral issues. It seems very likely indeed that the final result would have been more or lress the same, but would have taken longer.

Germany had exhausted all its manpower by the end of the war. Russia, despite the staggering casulities, could have actually afforded to lose the same amount of people again. It defies belief but it is so.

So the only possible difference is that instead of a crushing defeat of Germany, we get along, protracted, horiffic war of years and years and years where both sides totally devastate the other beyond use.

Originally posted by Ushgarak

Let's face it, this would have happened- Germany and Russia would have fought each other into the stone age.

No argument here.

Anybody got another, SINGLE, "what if..." question? This thread has gone from what if to who knows more about history. And that might have come from too many possible scenarios being mentioned in the opening post.

Yeah...It was just a simple "What If"........... 😂

Originally posted by Ushgarak
As ever with Germany, they had superb designs but no practicality. Their advanced tanks were the best in the world, but they couldn't make them. The same for their planes, jet power and everything- they were just toally impractical without the resources they needed. No, the Germans would never have won that way.

The only other possible argument you could make is that Germany gets the bomb. But I think we are straying too far out the scenario here.

Let's face it, this would have happened- Germany and Russia would have fought each other into the stone age.

I agree for the most part. However, as you say, it was a matter of investable time and resources. As a solution to the problem of making these designs come to fruition, the US and Britain simply brought these scientista and engineers to their countries and established government agencies like NASA and the CIA.

Hitler was stupid. Had he listened to his generals the outcome of the war, whether it ended in 1940 or not, would have been very different. Before the blitz of London in 1940 German air raids were concentrating on British air bases. Because a few British bombs fell on Berlin Hitler ordered bombing to be concentrated on London giving British air power valuable reprieve. Had he not done this Germany likely would have decimated what was left of the RAF forcing Britain to sue for peace. During the invasion of Russia the top commanders of the Wehrmacht wanted a single, massive drive on Moscow. Hitler instead ordered the military split into three army groups leaving the Russians to concentrate greater forces around Moscow keeping their command structure intact. The fact that the invasion was started three weeks late was also a major factor when winter set in. The final nail in Germany's coffin was when it declared war on The United States. Had Hitler not done this it may have been very difficult to get congress to declare war on Germany despite pearl harbor.

All speculation I know but most military historians agree.

We can be very thankful Hitler was a military idiot. One can just imagine what would have happened had Germany won the war. The Final Solution would likely have been carried out in it's entirety. A fascist Nazi Europe would likely be the dominant world power. One can only speculate at the horrible ramifications of that.

Unless I missed it, seems a small, minor detail ought to be mentioned, something that would've had Hitler frothing at the mouth with visions of world conquest dancing in his head...

Hitler + Atomic Bomb = ?