i didnt use the term better. i just said i'd take bird over malone. karl malone choked too often in the final minutes... bird was known for being a decent clutch player and someone who even tho he talked trash... he could do it on the floor too. he won some of those things too... wat they called... championships?
Malone > Bird
Bird had 2 other HoFers on his team (both of which are regarded as top 10 in their respective position) and had the advantage of playing at the same time as a YOUNG Jordan (one of the most underestimated thing about stars of the 90's is how much playing against a guy who only didn't win when he retired kills your ring chances) not to mention his teamed would still be stacked if you took Bird off the team. Malone had Stockton and roleplayers (take the time and realise that GREG OSTERTAG was the starting Center of this team G-R-E-G O-S-T-E-R-T-A-G). Malone could put up numbers and PLAY DEFENSE (to quote a wise man
"As long as Larry Bird was playing in the same league as me I NEVER had to worry about being the worse defensive player" - Barkley).
For what it's worth Bird would be around 11-15 on my list.
And when has Malone choked in the final minutes? You mean the times where he DOMINATED arguably the greatest 4 defender of all time (Rodman) like it was nothing (check the location I can remember the Utah/Chicago finals better then the time I had busted my first nut)?
On to Bill and Wilt. Let me state that Bill Russell was 6'8 (and not even a legit 6'8 more or less a Carmello Anthony 6'8) and weighed 210 lbs. Think about that for a second. He was 6'8 210 lbs and is considered the greatest defending CENTER of his time period (to put it in perspective Ray Allen is 6'5 and 205 lbs and Carmello Anthony is 6'8 230 lbs). That alone makes me question the credibility of the Big Men (including Wilt who was said to have a hard time against him) of that era. If this was a list based on greatness he'd be top 5 that's unarguable, but that's a list of players who I'd want on my team based on skill. Based on skill, I don't think Bill Russell is even top 75.
Oh and to the guy saying Bird over Wilkins, have you ever seen Wilkins play? When he got his jump shot going his stroke was as good as ANYBODY's (able to match Bird bucket for bucket in the legendary Hawks/Celtics series). His clutch factor (though not on the upper upper etchelon like Bird and Reggie) was top notch his defense was while not great was BETTER THEN BIRDS (I don't know HOW he EVER got second team defense I don't want to say the r-word but..........) his scoring ability blew Bird's out the water (thanks to his athletic ability) and he carried a mediocre Hawks team to consistent Championship contender status (as opposed to Bird who had 2 other HoFers no dis but that just shows what kind of player Nique and what kind of player Bird was).
Isaiah and Wilkins are equal in my eyes. I just like Wilkins and Kobe more then I do Zeke the Franchise slayer.
Btw not to be an ******* but..........
Reggie over 'Nique? 🤣
reggie miller is the all time #1 in 3 pointers made and he is the greatest clutch player in history, hands down, im not gonna argue with you about that. yes ive seen wilkins play, and hes a great player. but i just dont see him in the top 10 of all time, because he didnt make a mark in the NBA. he was very athletic and he made some very special dunks and won a dunk competition, but that was basically it. he didnt make his team go deep into the playoffs. he was a very skilled player, but not a dominant force or symbol of greatness. thats why jordan is so popular and is defeinately on everybody's top 10 list. because he made such a huge mark on the NBA, and he was the symbol, everybody looked up to him, and knew his name.
Originally posted by B dot Rob
And when has Malone choked in the final minutes?
Game 1 of the 97 finals, two missed free throws that could have won the game. I would guess that was what Royke was talking about, Malones "clutchness" was always doubted after that.
I would put Bird over Nique, even though you do make a compelling argument. Bird did have a great team but there is no denying the incredible skills he possessed. He was a better shooter, passer, rebounder and ball handler than Nique plus Nique was streaky as hell with his jumper whereas Bird very rarely had an off night in his prime. Defense definitely goes to Wilkins but he was not a great defender, Bird was just a poor man to man defender (while being an above average team defender because he was so smart). I loved watching Wilkins play and i still think he got robbed in the 88 dunk contest vs MJ, but i think Bird is a better player.
Originally posted by B dot Rob
🤨And being the unarguably greatest scoring 3 of all time isn't making a mark on the NBA?
Oh and Reggie more clutch then Jordan?
thats my point, reggie made a mark in the NBA by being the unarguably greatest 3 point scorer.
i take that back, jordan was a little more clutch, but reggie was a close 2nd.
Originally posted by B dot RobOn to Bill and Wilt. Let me state that Bill Russell was 6'8 (and not even a legit 6'8 more or less a Carmello Anthony 6'8) and weighed 210 lbs. Think about that for a second. He was 6'8 210 lbs and is considered the greatest defending CENTER of his time period (to put it in perspective Ray Allen is 6'5 and 205 lbs and Carmello Anthony is 6'8 230 lbs). That alone makes me question the credibility of the Big Men (including Wilt who was said to have a hard time against him) of that era. If this was a list based on greatness he'd be top 5 that's unarguable, but that's a list of players who I'd want on my team based on skill. Based on skill, I don't think Bill Russell is even top 75.
IIRC, Bill Russell is 6'9", 220lbs.
The only reason Russell was a lightweight on his playing career was because he threw up his lunch in almost every game, PSYCHING himself for the game. You could say he is sacrificing his weight for mental readiness.
If he was playing in the 90's, management would have sent him to a psychologist; combined with modern training facilities and training techniques, he would have gained more weight.
In contrast, if Shaquille was playing in the 60's without MODERN diet and training regiment and the management with little money to spare on their player's welfare, he would be too fat and his b-ball skills would be too raw to play basketball.
In addition, Ben Wallace is also 6'9" like Russell. They both dominate their opponents regardless of their small height.
Russell's scoring takes a backseat since he's the team rebounder and the Celtics main MO during the 60's is the fast break. Being the rebounder, he is always the one nearest the opposing teams basket ; in other words, he's the one often left behind during a fast break play. He is more often than not the last scoring option for the Celtics (well except in put backs).
Originally posted by RecSpecs110
reggie miller is the all time #1 in 3 pointers made and he is the greatest clutch player in history, hands down, im not gonna argue with you about that. yes ive seen wilkins play, and hes a great player. but i just dont see him in the top 10 of all time, because he didnt make a mark in the NBA. he was very athletic and he made some very special dunks and won a dunk competition, but that was basically it. he didnt make his team go deep into the playoffs. he was a very skilled player, but not a dominant force or symbol of greatness. thats why jordan is so popular and is defeinately on everybody's top 10 list. because he made such a huge mark on the NBA, and he was the symbol, everybody looked up to him, and knew his name.
Wow, replace Wilkin's name with Vince Carters. Seems very similar: "he was very athletic and he made some very special dunks and won a dunk competition, but that was basically it. he didnt make his team go deep into the playoffs. he was a very skilled player, but not a dominant force or symbol of greatness."
Just something I thought was worth noting.
B dot: "Based on skill, I don't think Bill Russell is even top 75"
Thats only if you classify "skill" as "offensive".
[QUOTE=7321439]Originally posted by Myth
[B]Wow, replace Wilkin's name with Vince Carters. Seems very similar: "he was very athletic and he made some very special dunks and won a dunk competition, but that was basically it. he didnt make his team go deep into the playoffs. he was a very skilled player, but not a dominant force or symbol of greatness."
im not saying that wilkins was the vince carter of back then. im just saying that miller made a greater mark on the NBA then wilkins. you can disagree, but thats just my opinion. i dont think wilkins fits in the top 10 of all time.
Originally posted by koolruningz
Game 1 of the 97 finals, two missed free throws that could have won the game. I would guess that was what Royke was talking about, Malones "clutchness" was always doubted after that.I would put Bird over Nique, even though you do make a compelling argument. Bird did have a great team but there is no denying the incredible skills he possessed. He was a better shooter, passer, rebounder and ball handler than Nique plus Nique was streaky as hell with his jumper whereas Bird very rarely had an off night in his prime. Defense definitely goes to Wilkins but he was not a great defender, Bird was just a poor man to man defender (while being an above average team defender because he was so smart). I loved watching Wilkins play and i still think he got robbed in the 88 dunk contest vs MJ, but i think Bird is a better player.
See I can respect that (as it actually makes points though I'd argue that 'Nique was the better ball handler) and it's mostly bias that makes me put 'Nique over Bird (the other part was him making a mediocre Hawks team into a contender whereas Bird's teams were just out of this world) but when you have dudes saying Reggie > 'Nique (not knocking Reggie but he was barely top 5 @ his position when he was playing whereas the only people that I'd put in the same league as Nique in his position are Bird, Scottie and 5 maybe even 2 years from now LeBron) and Vince Carter = 'Nique it makes you think (though 01 Carter was a absolute MONSTER and definately pretty close to Nique I'd say a MUCH better comparison would be LeBron).
IIRC, Bill Russell is 6'9", 220lbs.The only reason Russell was a lightweight on his playing career was because he threw up his lunch in almost every game, PSYCHING himself for the game. You could say he is sacrificing his weight for mental readiness.
If he was playing in the 90's, management would have sent him to a psychologist; combined with modern training facilities and training techniques, he would have gained more weight.
In contrast, if Shaquille was playing in the 60's without MODERN diet and training regiment and the management with little money to spare on their player's welfare, he would be too fat and his b-ball skills would be too raw to play basketball.
In addition, Ben Wallace is also 6'9" like Russell. They both dominate their opponents regardless of their small height.
Russell's scoring takes a backseat since he's the team rebounder and the Celtics main MO during the 60's is the fast break. Being the rebounder, he is always the one nearest the opposing teams basket ; in other words, he's the one often left behind during a fast break play. He is more often than not the last scoring option for the Celtics (well except in put backs).
You make a good argument though it's nothing my pops (who argues old school RELIGOUSLY and is the closest thing to a stat machine that I've ever seen) and I haven't been through x1000000's. If Shaq was playing in the 60's he'd probably not be on the list either (unless he was the same 380 lb machine he is today). I'm not going to let time and diet determine who the better player is. If you want to argue greatness, then yeah the only person you can say with a serious look on your face as greater is Jordan but if you seriously were asked to start a team and given a time machine and were allowed to pick one player who wasn't Jordan and you'd pick Bill, I'd seriously have to test you for drugs. Hell if I gave you a choice between Bill Russell and Shawn Marion and you took Bill I'd probably still test you for drugs.
And if you put Ben Wallace next to Russell there is no comparison the guy is pretty much raw muscle able to curl my freaking body weight (140 lbs) whereas Russell still weighs less then Marion and was a dominant CENTER.
Oh and by scoring three I meant Small Forward :/
ok, i got carried away with reggie, but what about david robinson or patrick ewing or even someone like jerry west? as i can see you put KG. KG? i mean hes awesome, but there are many you can put before him. so before you call me a "dude who puts reggie>'Nique," why dont you look at what you put yourself? and i would pick bird over 'Nique and Malone. You seem to think that i dont believe 'Nique was a great player. thats not true, all im saying is that i dont think he belongs in the top 10 in history.
oh, and i never said that vince carter='Nique. I already mentioned that i never meant vince='Nique if you'd read my posts. Myth brought up that the two were similiar in their style. but of course 'Nique was a much greater player. lebron is too young to be compared to the all time greats, but let me just say that in a a few years, lebron>'Nique in a landslide.
Originally posted by B dot Rob
You make a good argument though it's nothing my pops (who argues old school RELIGOUSLY and is the closest thing to a stat machine that I've ever seen) and I haven't been through x1000000's. If Shaq was playing in the 60's he'd probably not be on the list either (unless he was the same 380 lb machine he is today). I'm not going to let time and diet determine who the better player is. If you want to argue greatness, then yeah the only person you can say with a serious look on your face as greater is Jordan but if you seriously were asked to start a team and given a time machine and were allowed to pick one player who wasn't Jordan and you'd pick Bill, I'd seriously have to test you for drugs. Hell if I gave you a choice between Bill Russell and Shawn Marion and you took Bill I'd probably still test you for drugs.And if you put Ben Wallace next to Russell there is no comparison the guy is pretty much raw muscle able to curl my freaking body weight (140 lbs) whereas Russell still weighs less then Marion and was a dominant CENTER.
Oh and by scoring three I meant Small Forward :/
If im just a casual NBA fan looking for basketball thrills armed with a time machine then yes i would pass on Bill Russell and pick someone more exciting like Kobe.
But if i was a coach entrusted to form a championship caliber team armed with a time machine, then i would certainly pick an intelligent, team-oriented, self-motivated, highly competitive, and with no superstar ego, player with excellent leadership qualities and knows how to effectively blend his skills with the team. A player like Bill Russell. The fact that he has 11 NBA rings and he's college team was virtually undefeated in the NCAA only seals the deal. Drug influence not included.
And like i said earlier if Russell was playing today, the team management would have sent him to a psychiatrist to curb his anorexic-like tendency of throwing up before almost every game. This would have allowed him to bulk up and gain weight, so really the comparison to Ben Wallace isnt exactly far off.
ok, i got carried away with reggie, but what about david robinson or patrick ewing or even someone like jerry west? as i can see you put KG. KG? i mean hes awesome, but there are many you can put before him. so before you call me a "dude who puts reggie>'Nique," why dont you look at what you put yourself? and i would pick bird over 'Nique and Malone. You seem to think that i dont believe 'Nique was a great player. thats not true, all im saying is that i dont think he belongs in the top 10 in history.
I wouldn't take Dave or Patrick over 'Nique. Well maybe Dave but def not Patrick.
And KG is probably the best PF ever (I only put Malone over him because of how he used to wreck my Bulls). Name one PF in the history of the NBA with his skillset (the closeset person I can think of is McHale) and you get a cookie.
oh, and i never said that vince carter='Nique. I already mentioned that i never meant vince='Nique if you'd read my posts. Myth brought up that the two were similiar in their style. but of course 'Nique was a much greater player. lebron is too young to be compared to the all time greats, but let me just say that in a a few years, lebron>'Nique in a landslide.
If you bothered to read my post I pretty much said dudes/guys (that's plural) meaning you weren't being singled out and that I already pretty much acknowledged that Bron will likely bump 'Nique off the list in a few years.
If we're talking about great SF's in NBA history i'd have to mention Elgin Baylor, the guy averaged 27pts and nearly 14 boards at 6'5.
And I'd have to mention that is due to the era he played in more then anything (and didn't he play the 2).
If im just a casual NBA fan looking for basketball thrills armed with a time machine then yes i would pass on Bill Russell and pick someone more exciting like Kobe.
Actually it's more like if you are just a casual with no idea on how basketball mechanics work then you'd pick Bill over Kobe because of the rings.
But......
Explain to me how an 6'9 220 lb CENTER who's signature was grabbing rebounds and blocking shots in an era where goal tending was a legal move because it was thought to be impossible to be able to reach that high up would be able to do anything in a league that has < 5'9 players winning the DUNK CONTEST and an era where (not to sound like a chauvanist but) WOMEN are dunking the ball more or less be better then the best player in the L? Stop the lies you're either a Kobe hater or not very informed.
Hell even I can grab the rim. Get that Bill Russell garbage outta here.
The fact that he has 11 NBA rings and he's college team was virtually undefeated in the NCAA only seals the deal. Drug influence not included.
Do I have to bring up the fact that half of the teams Bill beat in the 'Ship were barely .500 teams (often times not even .500) and that the NCAA teams of his era would be hard pressed to beat the best High School teams of this era? Or do you at least know that bit of info?
And like i said earlier if Russell was playing today, the team management would have sent him to a psychiatrist to curb his anorexic-like tendency of throwing up before almost every game. This would have allowed him to bulk up and gain weight, so really the comparison to Ben Wallace isnt exactly far off.
Just like how IF I was born with Kobe's talent I wouldn't have struggled to make the B-Team in HS or IF Bill Russell was 6'2 he'd suck. Don't bring that if garbage in this argument over best players ever. The players of the 50's and 60's are pretty much chumps compared to the 80's, 90's, and current players.
Originally posted by B dot Rob
And KG is probably the best PF ever (I only put Malone over him because of how he used to wreck my Bulls). Name one PF in the history of the NBA with his skillset (the closeset person I can think of is McHale) and you get a cookie.
I'd take Tim Duncan over ALL of them.
Do I get a cookie? Huh? Huh? Do I? Do I? 😄
Originally posted by B dot Rob
I wouldn't take Dave or Patrick over 'Nique. Well maybe Dave but def not Patrick.And KG is probably the best PF ever (I only put Malone over him because of how he used to wreck my Bulls). Name one PF in the history of the NBA with his skillset (the closeset person I can think of is McHale) and you get a cookie.
If you bothered to read my post I pretty much said dudes/guys (that's plural) meaning you weren't being singled out and that I already pretty much acknowledged that Bron will likely bump 'Nique off the list in a few years.
you obviously are REALLY biased towards 'Nique, as you seem to deny so many great players that i just mentioned in order to keep him up there. david robinson should definately be before him, and even ewing who was a very honored and versatile big man. but thats ok, because as i said, its about the opinion. Somebody else mentioned him, but Tim Duncan, you forgot about him. i dont want the cookie though. 😉 KG isnt the best PF ever. If you said that in public, you'd be a laughing stock. As i said, KG is an outstanding player, but we're talking about top 10 in HISTORY.
And Yes, I do read your posts, I dont give a damn if you singled me out or not. You still accused me of saying vince='Nique, when actually that would be the last thing i would say, right after i CLEARLY mentioned i did not mean that. btw, i was the only one who said reggie>'Nique, so obviously you singled me out on that one. Second, you never said that in a few years Bron would knock 'Nique out. You said that Bron would be a better comparison to him than Vince and that he and 'Nique would be in the same league in a few years. I never saw you write, "Bron would knock off 'Nique in a few years." So yes, I do read your posts.