Strange through his training can tap into ambient mystical forces, invoke mystical entities and draw on his own psychic resources. Through training Strange has given himself access to great power. While genetically human its no different to a character like Binary and a variety of energy wielders who dont generate their own energies internally but taps into an outside source. (Binary for example taps into a white hole.) The only difference is Strange got to that point through mystical training. Strange employing artifacts and tomes is something completely different. If they employed cosmic tapping artifacts would the feats achieved with them be considered their own? By your logic Thanos' (who employs the use of technology all the time) feats with the IG can be considered his own because he uses external aids all the time.
Strange's astral form once inhabited Morgana Blessing during a fight, and he wasn't able to use the Eye in her body because she was too impure. How many times have people stumbled across artifacts and have been killed, enslaved, rendered totally useless, etc. Sure, magical artifacts possess immense power, but it means nothing in the hands of someone who doesn't know what to do with it. Compare Thanos tech in his hands to his tech in the hands of a five year old, or even a 500 year old. Yes, it's powerful in its own right, but that means little to one who cannot comprehend or use it.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
He presented a hierarchy of the top beings in Marvel and he intentionally left out Phoenix, a character who is very much related to the topic of marvels cosmology. The topic he and I admittedly went on a tangent on, but our business nonetheless. I commented on this and you butted in and and chose to ignore the fact that Leon referred to a number of characters unrelated to the topic and singled out my reference of Phoenix for your own reasons. 🙄If you were being both neutral and objective you wouldve mentioned said characters in addition to Phoenix, whilst saying none of them have anything to do with the thread. ❌
With that aside im glad you can see past Leons ramblings. 🙂
Im not biased towards Phoenix, I would put the entity near the top of the hierarchy, just not where you think it is. And yes Phoenix >Galactus, Celestials and Strange.
Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
Magical training is very thorough. The allegation that artifacts are simply vessels for power requiring little knowledge or experience on the part of the user is preposterous. You're assuming that the artifacts themselves require nothing more than desire to use. It's not that simple. Magic and artifacts can not function, or even be deadly, to someone not adept in the magical arts.Strange's astral form once inhabited Morgana Blessing during a fight, and he wasn't able to use the Eye in her body because she was too impure. How many times have people stumbled across artifacts and have been killed, enslaved, rendered totally useless, etc. Sure, magical artifacts possess immense power, but it means nothing in the hands of someone who doesn't know what to do with it. Compare Thanos tech in his hands to his tech in the hands of a five year old, or even a 500 year old. Yes, it's powerful in its own right, but that means little to one who cannot comprehend or use it.
What does this have to do anything? 😕
I made no allegations thats your interpratation of what ive said. Thats also your problem.
Strange has personal resources he can draw upon and he can tap into outside sources of power be it ambient energy or through invoking entities. In a similar way to some beings being able to generate their own energies whilst also tapping into outside sources. (Silver Surfer for example). Strange using artifacts (other than those he has as part of his standard equipment) and then performing a feat means said feats should not be used as a measure for Stranges power as it isnt the norm for the character. Its like Iron man with the KingThorBuster upgrades or Thanos with the IG. Should the feats performed with said aids be counted as inherent to the character and therefore counted as a feat they can perform as standard? ❌
Originally posted by Maestro
Im not biased towards Phoenix, I would put the entity near the top of the hierarchy, just not where you think it is. And yes Phoenix >Galactus, Celestials and Strange.
Thats not the point of my previous post. I was highlighting how you called me out for something (which just happened to be Phoenix related 😉 ) whilst ignoring Leon doing the same thing. If youre going to try and play the adjudicator then a little neutrality would help 🙂
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Thats not the point of my previous post. I was highlighting how you called me out for something (which just happened to be Phoenix related 😉 ) whilst ignoring Leon doing the same thing. If youre going to try and play the adjudicator then a little neutrality would help 🙂
Its a matter of opinion if leon excluded phoenix out his hierarchy or not, its not my decision or yours to decide if he should include the entity or not, which obviously your not happy with hence your debate with him about the hierarchy. It was your decision to came to the thread to argue the case for phoenix not being there,even though leon wasn't even trying to refer to phoenix in one way or another, just giving levels of the marvel hierarchy. Hence, I said Quite odd, I didn't see the mention of Phoenix anywhere in this thread? because phoenix wasn't even relevant to the thread. On top of that your accusing me of being biased.
Lol
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
What does this have to do anything? 😕I made no allegations thats your interpratation of what ive said. Thats also your problem.
Strange has personal resources he can draw upon and he can tap into outside sources of power be it ambient energy or through invoking entities. In a similar way to some beings being able to generate their own energies whilst also tapping into outside sources. (Silver Surfer for example). Strange using artifacts (other than those he has as part of his standard equipment) and then performing a feat means said feats should not be used as a measure for Stranges power as it isnt the norm for the character. Its like Iron man with the KingThorBuster upgrades or Thanos with the IG. Should the feats performed with said aids be counted as inherent to the character and therefore counted as a feat they can perform as standard? ❌
You have made allegations, or do you not understand that statements are allegations? What does this have to do with anything? Good question, considering you were the person to bring up the artifacts in the first place. I'd stated earlier that the only artifacts that factor into non-prep fights with Strange are his Eye and Cloak, which are always in his possession. You mentioned many of Strange's greatest feats are due to various artifacts. First of all, it's not true. Strange has bested the majority of his opponents (including the Beyonder and Dormammu on multiple occasions) with nothing more than his standard cadre of artifacts, because that's all he has on them. Second of all, this fight isn't about what's just standard. That's listed in the primary post of this thread:
Bloodlust on. Discuss.
And I can't believe you of all people would argue on the basis of feats, considering the lack of them to generally support your ideas. Apply some of your criticisms of others arguments in this thread to your own and see how well they hold up.
Originally posted by Maestro
Its a matter of opinion if leon excluded phoenix out his hierarchy or not, its not my decision or yours to decide if he should include the entity or not, which obviously your not happy with hence your debate with him about the hierarchy. It was your decision to came to the thread to argue the case for phoenix not being there,even though leon wasn't even trying to refer to phoenix in one way or another, just giving levels of the marvel hierarchy. Hence, I said Quite odd, I didn't see the mention of Phoenix anywhere in this thread? because phoenix wasn't even relevant to the thread. On top of that your accusing me of being biased.Lol
Yes but i was debating with Leon about his hierarchy a hierarchy which featured characters which had nothing to do with the thread yet you chose not to mention that but instead singled out my reference to Phoenix. Want it odd that there was no reference by anyone els eprior to Leons post of Franklin Richards, or Scarlet Witch? 😕 Thats the crux of the matter. 😉
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Yes but i was debating with Leon about his hierarchy a hierarchy which featured characters which had nothing to do with the thread yet you chose not to mention that but instead singled out my reference to Phoenix. Want it odd that there was no reference by anyone els eprior to Leons post of Franklin Richards, or Scarlet Witch? 😕 Thats the crux of the matter. 😉
You do know Leon was referring to Franklin and Scarlett in the context of power levels in accordance to comparisents, which was relevant to how powerful strange was with his artifacts, which didn't include phoenix, because for some reason or another it was a character that he didn't include. You want me to emphasise anymore that im not being biased, i'll be happy to run around with a banner for you.
dots
Originally posted by Acrosurge
This battle seems pretty clear cut to me:Thor wins a strong majority in a no-prep situation.
Strange wins the majority in a prep situation.
false! Strange's powers is always flowing. He always has protection up. There is no way for Thor to hurt Strange offguard. Strange can instantly kill Thor by infinite ways. Such as turn him to stone, shrink him, control Thor's time and space. This thread is a no brainer for those who know what Strange can do. Heck, he even beat King Thor before!
Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
You have made allegations, or do you not understand that statements are allegations? What does this have to do with anything? Good question, considering you were the person to bring up the artifacts in the first place. I'd stated earlier that the only artifacts that factor into non-prep fights with Strange are his Eye and Cloak, which are always in his possession. You mentioned many of Strange's greatest feats are due to various artifacts. First of all, it's not true. Strange has bested the majority of his opponents (including the Beyonder and Dormammu on multiple occasions) with nothing more than his standard cadre of artifacts, because that's all he has on them. Second of all, this fight isn't about what's just standard. That's listed in the primary post of this thread:
Stranges greatest feat imo is resisting the power of the IG. Take another read of my posts, while admittedly i was wrong to make such a broad statement, anyone with common sense should be able to see it was that event i was focusing on hence its prevalence in my previous posts.
My post was a reply to Leon and my question directed at you was regarding Leons hierarchy and his positioning of Strange within it. A position he was supporting via the IG and LT incidents. This fight might not just be about whats standard but when looking at the hierarchy Strange as standard is what counts. The discussion of the hierarchy was a tangent we went on and as such my comments regarding it should not be looked at in terms of the topic for this thread.
Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
Since "standard" Thor and Strange aren't bloodlusted, "standard" feats go out the window. And it doesn't really matter whether feats are standard or not because they happened. No holds barred. And if Strange decides to summon forth the Purple Gem or the Darkhold while in the heat of battle, so what? He's Sorceror Supreme: that's his prerogative. Does that make it less of a feat than if he did it with no artifacts? Not really, since artifacts are just vessels or conduits for magical energy. Maybe Agamotto placed restricitions on how his magic can be used: certain effects can be accomplished through spells, some through the Eye. It doesn't really matter, because it accomplishes what it needed to, plain and simple.
There you go again waffling about Thor and Strange as per this thread. My first call in this thread was to deal with Leons positioning of Strange in the hierarchy and the reasons behind it, before explaining my take on the battle at hand. Youre applying the rules of this thread to the tangent we went on which cannot be done. ❌
With that in mind alot of your post is irrelevant to my contribution to this thread which itself is not directly on topic.
In terms of this thread alot of what youre saying is correct, in terms of Stranges positioning on the hierarchy that should be measured by the character as standard. Feats achieved with Strange employing artifacts beyond his standard equipment do not factor in when weighing up his position on the hierarchy. Stands to reason mate. ✅
Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
And I can't believe you of all people would argue on the basis of feats, considering the lack of them to generally support your ideas. Apply some of your criticisms of others arguments in this thread to your own and see how well they hold up.
Try me CF. 🙂
My current stance on all things Marvel are well supported both on panel and via bios. Any criticisms i direct at others are over issues i make sure i abide by with my own arguments If you beg to differ then youre more than welcome to take me to task. I await your attempt with baited breath. 😄
Originally posted by h1a8
false! Strange's powers is always flowing. He always has protection up. There is no way for Thor to hurt Strange offguard. Strange can instantly kill Thor by infinite ways. Such as turn him to stone, shrink him, control Thor's time and space. This thread is a no brainer for those who know what Strange can do. Heck, he even beat King Thor before!
Originally posted by Maestro
You do know Leon was referring to Franklin and Scarlett in the context of power levels in accordance to comparisents, which was relevant to how powerful strange was with his artifacts, which didn't include phoenix, because for some reason or another it was a character that he didn't include. You want me to emphasise anymore that im not being biased, i'll be happy to run around with a banner for you.dots
You are speaking on matters which you are not clued up on. Leons post is in line with his previous hierarchies where he does the same thing intentionally out of spite.
Leons statement was """wielding multiversal power, he is probably second only to wanda with the chaos wave, THOTU and pre retconned beyonder. """
Forget the criteria for this thread, it was a non thread specific statement that i took issue with because it is ill supported on panel and i therefore responded in kind.
Originally posted by h1a8
false! Strange's powers is always flowing. He always has protection up. There is no way for Thor to hurt Strange offguard. Strange can instantly kill Thor by infinite ways. Such as turn him to stone, shrink him, control Thor's time and space. This thread is a no brainer for those who know what Strange can do. Heck, he even beat King Thor before!
speak in context. that required prep, AND he didn't really 'beat' him. people who know thor know strange doesn't say 'thor loses' and that's what happens . . . 🙄