Mace vs. Grievous vs. Yoda vs. RTJ Luke.

Mace is not a better Duelist. Its pretty common knowledge that Yoda is the best at swordplay and Force abilities.

Vaapad is an extremely aggressive saber style. Have any of you read Shatterpoint? I'd assume you have, and if you have you'd realise how aggressive Mace gets. Hell, in Shatterpoint Mace himself says Depa once displayed Vaapad/ sword ability beyond even his own. And Depa PLUS 3 other Jedi couldn't even touch an unarmed Yoda. Its also no secret that Yoda is far superior on Force power then Mace is (as shown in his Duel with Palpatine).

Yoda wins this no problem. Luke as of ROTJ isn't even an issue and either Mace or Yoda would kill Grievous pretty quickly. It would come down to Yoda vs. Mace and if Yoda decided to go all out, Mace doesn't stand a chance. The only way Mace could win is if GG, Luke, and Mace stormed Yoda all at the same time and killed him, otherwise its Yoda hands down.

Erm... I HAVE read Shatterpoint, and I still think that Yoda doesn't definately "have" this. Mace was able to contend with and beat Sidious. Yoda was unable to adequately disable Sidious at all, let alone in the same timeframe. Therefore, why should I believe that Yoda will just trounce Mace with no problem at all?

See... I can apply that kind of logic too. The problem is that Depa and others couldn't hit Yoda because he was being fully defensive. But Ataru IS an offensive style. He won't have the same kind of defense in a saber battle because his form isn't made for that. His defensive will still be considerable, but nowhere near as good as that. Also, keep in mind that having other jedi nearby and trying to strike an agile three foot jedi master is a lot harder than duelling one on one with another jedi or a like mind and style. Imagine having those deadly glowsticks and trying to strike someone while trying not to strike two or three others. It's a messy situation where the jedi don't mesh well.

Secondly, Mace Windu is capable of both aggression and methodical fighting. Infact, I'd argue that Vaapad in essence is controlled aggression. Stover points this out many times during the novel. Mace has to walk a fine line with the darkness inside of him while resisting the darkness outside. The idea of him challenging Yoda, a sentient he knows and respects, and just hammering away at him recklessly is a bit foolish to me. Dooku was fully able to contend with Yoda -very- well for some time, as was Sidious, and the latter in particular isn't a saber heavy in combat.

As for the match? I could care less to venture a guess. I just wanted to get the point out there that Yoda, while good, isn't a sabergod.

Erm... I HAVE read Shatterpoint, and I still think that Yoda doesn't definately "have" this. Mace was able to contend with and beat Sidious. Yoda was unable to adequately disable Sidious at all, let alone in the same timeframe. Therefore, why should I believe that Yoda will just trounce Mace with no problem at all?

The Yoda/ Sidious fight was an "all out" fight between the two of them. Lucas himself has said (in the DVD commentary) that Palpatine was faking the force part of the battle. He could have toppled Mace with the force had he wanted too. However, in the Yoda fight, Palpatine DOES go all out with the force and Yoda is at least equal to Palpatine (possibly better). We have to remember, this isnt a "sabers only fight" and in a force battle, Mace gets owned. As well, Saber styles are very important in a fight, Vaapad could just have been the 'better form' to fight Sidious, where as Ataru was less effective. (OR Palps wasn't trying his best in the Mace duel but I wont get into that)

See... I can apply that kind of logic too. The problem is that Depa and others couldn't hit Yoda because he was being fully defensive. But Ataru IS an offensive style. He won't have the same kind of defense in a saber battle because his form isn't made for that. His defensive will still be considerable, but nowhere near as good as that. Also, keep in mind that having other jedi nearby and trying to strike an agile three foot jedi master is a lot harder than duelling one on one with another jedi or a like mind and style. Imagine having those deadly glowsticks and trying to strike someone while trying not to strike two or three others. It's a messy situation where the jedi don't mesh well

Perhaps, but if it ends up one on one then Yoda could just turn off his saber (or keep it on but not use it offensively) and jump around and let Mace try and hit him for a while tiring him out. Again this isnt a straight up "lightsaber duel", its just "Yoda vs. Windu" (not including GG and Luke who would die and are not important anyways). Yoda could just go into full defense mode and simply have his saber on, and use it to parry a stray attack now and then, but otherwise just jump around Mace and let him tire. Which, if Mace goes fully into "Vaapad mode" will happen after a while, seeing as it makes the person want to fight and be aggressive.

Secondly, Mace Windu is capable of both aggression and methodical fighting. Infact, I'd argue that Vaapad in essence is controlled aggression. Stover points this out many times during the novel. Mace has to walk a fine line with the darkness inside of him while resisting the darkness outside. The idea of him challenging Yoda, a sentient he knows and respects, and just hammering away at him recklessly is a bit foolish to me. Dooku was fully able to contend with Yoda -very- well for some time, as was Sidious, and the latter in particular isn't a saber heavy in combat.

Agreed, but "Controlled aggression" is still aggression none the less. If we are taking into account character sympathies like "The idea of him challenging Yoda, a sentient he knows and respects, and just hammering away at him recklessly is a bit foolish to me" then we might as well just not even be talking about this, seeing as if we take the character traits into account then all 3 (Luke, Mace, and Yoda) would just kill GG and leave. But thats not really the purpose. To make this even worth talking about we have to assume that the combatants are going all out, with no character sympathy. And if we do then Mace would go into a "Vaapad fury" and Yoda would just bounce around and let him tire. Then when he does, use the offensive nature of Ataru to unleash onslaught of saber attacks that Mace could not defend against for very long.

And again, if Mace did start to tire and brought this to a force battle (which he wouldn't cause even he would know he'd get owned) then Yoda also wins. After all, he said himself that Kar Vastor was beyond him, on a level of power near or equal to Yoda and 'Young Anakin Skywalker'. So Mace himself admits that he is not in Yoda league in terms of force ability. And although he would do very well in a saber duel (Mace is a badass saberist to say the least) Yoda could just not fully engage Mace until he knew he would win. Either way, Yoda wins.

No where did I presume that Yoda was a "saber god" but he is the best in the PT era.

I have to agree with that. Yoda will more likely win then lose from Mace.

Mace vs. Yoda=Yoda
GG vs. Luke=Luke
Yoda vs. Luke=Which Yoda?

GG vs Luke is Luke?

The same GG who pwned Jedi Masters with years of training... Against Luke who could barely deal with one lightsaber? Luke is dead as hell... Very dead... Yoda would destroy GG with a single force push, just like he would take out Luke...

Yeeaaa...ROTJ Luke would get WTFpwned by GG.

Luke isn't even really worth even being included in this fight. Really GG isn't either, but at least he has saber skill...

But this might as well be a "Yoda vs. Mace" thread because it will boil down to them anyways.

And Yoda will win.

So this should really just be a "Yoda wins thread" lol

Luke doesn't suck. Luke would beat Grievous.

he was able to take out vader. but vader was old and mostly machine so...

Luke defeat Grievous? wow....

Vader was kickass. He wasn't horrible as the people here make him out to be. Vader tooled a Jedi Master in like 7 seconds right after he got the suit.

Originally posted by mace=badass
Vader was kickass. He wasn't horrible as the people here make him out to be. Vader tooled a Jedi Master in like 7 seconds right after he got the suit.

ROTS Luke vs. Grievous? Luke beat Vader, who has increased greatly in power since his close encounter with Jedi Master Bol Chatak so I'd say Luke stands a fair chance, although I'm not certain he could defeat the General due to his four arms.

Vader could have and should have WTFpwned Luke in ROTJ. He was not giving it his all because there was conflict in him, he didn't want to kill his son is all.

Luke in ROTJ was prolly as strong as a 13 year old padawan in the PT time, and prolly less skilled then that with a saber. He had basically no training at all. All Luke had going for him was raw force power that he didn't really know how to use. I mean the extent of Luke's force skill was doing a back flip onto a walkway while fighting Vader and force choking 2 giant pig men...lol

Other then that he sucked....until the NJO years...lol

Vader could have and should have WTFpwned Luke in ROTJ. He was not giving it his all because there was conflict in him, he didn't want to kill his son is all.

Luke in ROTJ was prolly as strong as a 13 year old padawan in the PT time

and prolly less skilled then that with a saber.

He had basically no training at all.

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
Vader could have and should have WTFpwned Luke in ROTJ. He was not giving it his all because there was conflict in him, he didn't want to kill his son is all.

I hate to be the one to point this out here, but you were a huge supporter of Anakin beating Dooku fair and square because GL said so right? Well, I'm pretty sure GL also said that Luke beat Vader fair and square in the ROTJ commentary (something I never quite believed), so what do you think?

Originally posted by darthsith19
I completely agree with that. Vader just let his son chopped off his arm. 🙄

Have you seen ESB? Vader and Luke fight equally then Luke hits Vader, two seconds later his hand is off. Was there any real improvement in his skills between then and ROTJ? He sure as hell didn't train under Yoda or Obi Wan during that time, as he only returned to Yoda after having saved Han.

Vader was holding back in ESB and he was holding back in ROTJ, we never once in ROTJ see him do what he does in ESB. Instead we see a man physically strong enough to pick up an adult male and choke him being hit down by the constant attacks from Luke his weightless lightsaber which just swings from left to right.

This is the same guy that managed to duel with Obi Wan for god knows how long and managed to outmaneuver Dooku, okay Dooku wasn't trying but he still didn't expect that to happen. So do you honestly believe that Vader could not have just put his Sabre forward waiting for Luke to walk in? And do you honestly believe that Luke had the physical power to knock Vader down?

Also Vader stayed down until Luke threw away his lightsaber he stood up right after that.. Doesn't the fight between Vader and Luke resemble the fight between Dooku and Anakin? Both weren't trying their best to convert the younger Sith to the Dark Side.

Yeah, cause a 13-year-old Padawan could beat Boba fett whiule fighting off Jabba's thugs. Could infiltrate Xixor's palace (which Luke did between ESB and ROTJ), defeat Guri and destroy the whole building. Like a 13-year old Jedi could even stand a chance against Jabba's guards. Yeah right.

A young ling from the Jedi temple managed to ambush and kill a bunch of clone troopers with relative ease until he got shot from a lot of sides like many adult Jedi in that time. Those clone troopers are heavily superior to stormtroopers, even the two stormtroopers Luke refused to take out on Endor. When he let Han and Chewie go. He obviously felt he wasn't the right guy for the job so he let two others go...

Would any self respecting Jedi have done the same? No they would have jumped down lightsaber activated cut down both troopers and would have moved on. Luke also didn't manage to deflect the attacks of a few troops on Jabba's sailboat thingie, and got shot in his hand. The little kid however managed to deflect blaster bolts when a lot more people were shooting at him and the people had superior training and weapons.

So he held the blade funny. So what? he still beat the crap out of alot of dudes.

He used his lightsaber like it was a baseball bat, he would get creamed by anybody that would know how to move the thing, one quick slash and Luke would be dead.

So what? He's the strongest Jedi ever. That's why he got so strong with only 4 yrs. of training.

Fanboy BS.

Originally posted by Fishy
Have you seen ESB? Vader and Luke fight equally then Luke hits Vader, two seconds later his hand is off. Was there any real improvement in his skills between then and ROTJ? He sure as hell didn't train under Yoda or Obi Wan during that time, as he only returned to Yoda after having saved Han.

Vader was holding back in ESB and he was holding back in ROTJ, we never once in ROTJ see him do what he does in ESB. Instead we see a man physically strong enough to pick up an adult male and choke him being hit down by the constant attacks from Luke his weightless lightsaber which just swings from left to right.

This is the same guy that managed to duel with Obi Wan for god knows how long and managed to outmaneuver Dooku, okay Dooku wasn't trying but he still didn't expect that to happen. So do you honestly believe that Vader could not have just put his Sabre forward waiting for Luke to walk in? And do you honestly believe that Luke had the physical power to knock Vader down?

Also Vader stayed down until Luke threw away his lightsaber he stood up right after that.. Doesn't the fight between Vader and Luke resemble the fight between Dooku and Anakin? Both weren't trying their best to convert the younger Sith to the Dark Side.

A young ling from the Jedi temple managed to ambush and kill a bunch of clone troopers with relative ease until he got shot from a lot of sides like many adult Jedi in that time. Those clone troopers are heavily superior to stormtroopers, even the two stormtroopers Luke refused to take out on Endor. When he let Han and Chewie go. He obviously felt he wasn't the right guy for the job so he let two others go...

Would any self respecting Jedi have done the same? No they would have jumped down lightsaber activated cut down both troopers and would have moved on. Luke also didn't manage to deflect the attacks of a few troops on Jabba's sailboat thingie, and got shot in his hand. The little kid however managed to deflect blaster bolts when a lot more people were shooting at him and the people had superior training and weapons.

He used his lightsaber like it was a baseball bat, he would get creamed by anybody that would know how to move the thing, one quick slash and Luke would be dead.

Fanboy BS.

Of course there was an improvement. You can't not know the way of the Jedi and not train. Luke is not an idiot.

Did it not occur that Luke was holding back too? He didn't want to kill Vader, he wanted to confront him.

If you take a full kick to the chest down a flight of stairs, of course you'll fall over.

If you are saying Vader wasn't giving it his all because there was conflict in him, why are you saying he was trying to convert Luke to the Darkside.

You CANNOT compare a padawan vs. a few clones and a jedi vs. so many more of Jabba's thugs.

Yeah, but Zett died and Luke didn't so, it is not the same thing.

So what if he holds his lightsaber differently, Mace is wierd to then because Dooku holds his to his side while Mace puts his over his head. Not every Jedi holds their lightsabers the same.

Originally posted by mace=badass
Of course there was an improvement. You can't not know the way of the Jedi and not train. Luke is not an idiot.

Did it not occur that Luke was holding back too? He didn't want to kill Vader, he wanted to confront him.

If you take a full kick to the chest down a flight of stairs, of course you'll fall over.

If you are saying Vader wasn't giving it his all because there was conflict in him, why are you saying he was trying to convert Luke to the Darkside.

You [B]CANNOT compare a padawan vs. a few clones and a jedi vs. so many more of Jabba's thugs.

Yeah, but Zett died and Luke didn't so, it is not the same thing.

So what if he holds his lightsaber differently, Mace is wierd to then because Dooku holds his to his side while Mace puts his over his head. Not every Jedi holds their lightsabers the same. [/B]

Yes I agree, there was an improvment, but was it such a big improvment? I would say it was big for the little time he practised, but it barley makes any skills comparable to a "real" jedi. Even if Luke practised often he could not have gained more experience and traning in the force and in lightsaber as a normal jedi did. They trained every day, Luke spended much of his time flying his X-Wing and other stuff. It actually says in the novels that he practised 8 months.
Vader is better than AOTC Anakin, this is certain. Anakin practised almost every day in 10 years plus he had a higher midichlorian count than Luke. (So his power would most likley grow faster than Luke's). So how would Luke in 8 months surpass even AOTC Anakin who had practised 10 years when he actually had less time and no living teacher to be taught by.

Luke fought Vader, then kicked him down the stairs. The Emperor talks to him and Luke realises that Vader is his father and he won't fight him. Here is where he says he won't fight him. Just recently he had let his emotions control him.
Then he hides, Vader reads his mind and talks about Leia. Luke goes berserk and attacks Vader with no intentions to spare his life. Vader was not aiming to kill Luke though, for several reasons.

The Emperor wanted Luke as an apprentice, Vader had orders that he had to obey.

Vader had feelings for Luke.

He needed help to overthrow the Emperor.

When Vader finally had gotten Luke to use his hate and anger and gotten him to slip a little to the dark side, why kill him.

There is also a big difference between Jabbas guards and clone troopers. Clone troopers have dangerous weapons and are trained for combat against almost any foe. They are expert marksmen, the best soldiers in the galaxy.
Jabbas guards mostly had melee weapons. Seriousley, anyone with a lightsaber could kill a guy with a bat. There where almost no one with a blaster on that place, and when one came Luke got shot on the hand. If he didn't have a mechanical hand it would be "game over" Luke.

It's not that Luke held his lightsaber differently, it's how he used it. He swung it like a bat, back and forth all the time. He was trying more to knock Vaders guard away with raw power then actually overcome his defence in technique (which kinda proves he hasen't been taught any special saber combat).

Originally posted by kamikz
Yes I agree, there was an improvment, but was it such a big improvment? I would say it was big for the little time he practised, but it barley makes any skills comparable to a "real" jedi. Even if Luke practised often he could not have gained more experience and traning in the force and in lightsaber as a normal jedi did. They trained every day, Luke spended much of his time flying his X-Wing and other stuff. It actually says in the novels that he practised 8 months. Vader is better than AOTC Anakin, this is certain. Anakin practised almost every day in 10 years plus he had a higher midichlorian count than Luke. (So his power would most likley grow faster than Luke's). So how would Luke in 8 months surpass even AOTC Anakin who had practised 10 years when he actually had less time and no living teacher to be taught by.

Luke fought Vader, then kicked him down the stairs. The Emperor talks to him and Luke realises that Vader is his father and he won't fight him. Here is where he says he won't fight him. Just recently he had let his emotions control him.
Then he hides, Vader reads his mind and talks about Leia. Luke goes berserk and attacks Vader with no intentions to spare his life. Vader was not aiming to kill Luke though, for several reasons.

The Emperor wanted Luke as an apprentice, Vader had orders that he had to obey.

Vader had feelings for Luke.

He needed help to overthrow the Emperor.

When Vader finally had gotten Luke to use his hate and anger and gotten him to slip a little to the dark side, why kill him.

There is also a big difference between Jabbas guards and clone troopers. Clone troopers have dangerous weapons and are trained for combat against almost any foe. They are expert marksmen, the best soldiers in the galaxy.
Jabbas guards mostly had melee weapons. Seriousley, anyone with a lightsaber could kill a guy with a bat. There where almost no one with a blaster on that place, and when one came Luke got shot on the hand. If he didn't have a mechanical hand it would be "game over" Luke.

It's not that Luke held his lightsaber differently, it's how he used it. He swung it like a bat, back and forth all the time. He was trying more to knock Vaders guard away with raw power then actually overcome his defence in technique (which kinda proves he hasen't been taught any special saber combat).

Well, according to people here "Anakin lost midichlorian count which made him less powerful." (I disagree that he got less powerful, I'm just using that logic.)

Luke knew before that that Vader was his father.

He had to obey, yes..

Luke had feelings for Vader.

Luke or Vader?

Because he couldn't.

10-15 clones or a Palace worth of guards? Everyone you see has a blaster besides the Weequay that pushes Luke. Luke did have a mechanical hand, so what does that have to do with anything?

Well "holding it like a bat" certainly worked out for him.

Well, according to people here "Anakin lost midichlorian count which made him less powerful." (I disagree that he got less powerful, I'm just using that logic.)

Actually he lost potential and his ability to move, for a large part. He did not necessarily become weaker, and definitly not weaker then AOTC Anakin... Which is the name named in the post.

Luke knew before that that Vader was his father.

Thats not the point Kamikz is making what he's saying is that Luke didn't want to kill Vader before, but when he heard Vader his threats about Leia he lost all those feelings and just attacked like a mindless moron.

He had to obey, yes..

Nice that you agree..

Luke had feelings for Vader.

Yes he did, but unlike Vader who loved Luke the entire fight, Luke suddenly lost all love and hope for Vader when he heard about Leia... Which is just seconds before he hits Vader down. Until right after he cuts of Vader his hand.

Luke or Vader?

Vader, he says it in ESB he wants Luke to join him. Together they will be unstoppable or so he says. He just needed somebody else to kill Palps or help him kill Palps.

Because he couldn't.

He had Luke where he wanted him, killing him would be stupid... It was exactly what he was hoping for. Vader could have sliced him down, have you seen him fight at the end of ESB, when he cut of Luke his hand, his lightsaber moves quite fast. He could have easily stopped Luke, just watch the scene he had the time and the oppertunity yet he never took it.

10-15 clones or a Palace worth of guards? Everyone you see has a blaster besides the Weequay that pushes Luke. Luke did have a mechanical hand, so what does that have to do with anything?

Then why didn't they just all fire at him, he reflects a few blaster shots at most and cuts down a few people with axes then when his hand is in the air he gets shot in the hand. His hand was above his head, that shows how stupid he was. That shows far less skill then a little kid killing half a dozen clone troopers who are heavily armed and all aiming at him. Unlike a few guards who also had half a dozen targets. Also Leia managed to kill their boss then run to the top of the boat shoot with the biggest gun and jump away with Luke... Shows the skill of those guards....

Well "holding it like a bat" certainly worked out for him.

Yes, but from watching ESB we know Vader had the speed and the skill to take him out...

Well "holding it like a bat" certainly worked out for him.