Mace vs. Grievous vs. Yoda vs. RTJ Luke.

Originally posted by Fishy
Actually he lost potential and his ability to move, for a large part. He did not necessarily become weaker, and definitly not weaker then AOTC Anakin... Which is the name named in the post.

Thats not the point Kamikz is making what he's saying is that Luke didn't want to kill Vader before, but when he heard Vader his threats about Leia he lost all those feelings and just attacked like a mindless moron.

Nice that you agree..

Yes he did, but unlike Vader who loved Luke the entire fight, Luke suddenly lost all love and hope for Vader when he heard about Leia... Which is just seconds before he hits Vader down. Until right after he cuts of Vader his hand.

Vader, he says it in ESB he wants Luke to join him. Together they will be unstoppable or so he says. He just needed somebody else to kill Palps or help him kill Palps.

He had Luke where he wanted him, killing him would be stupid... It was exactly what he was hoping for. Vader could have sliced him down, have you seen him fight at the end of ESB, when he cut of Luke his hand, his lightsaber moves quite fast. He could have easily stopped Luke, just watch the scene he had the time and the oppertunity yet he never took it.

Then why didn't they just all fire at him, he reflects a few blaster shots at most and cuts down a few people with axes then when his hand is in the air he gets shot in the hand. His hand was above his head, that shows how stupid he was. That shows far less skill then a little kid killing half a dozen clone troopers who are heavily armed and all aiming at him. Unlike a few guards who also had half a dozen targets. Also Leia managed to kill their boss then run to the top of the boat shoot with the biggest gun and jump away with Luke... Shows the skill of those guards....

Yes, but from watching ESB we know Vader had the speed and the skill to take him out...

Well "holding it like a bat" certainly worked out for him.

Why are we even talking about AotC Anakin?

Well he had been taken over by the Darkside, that's what happens when you get taken over by it.

Yup..........

Luke loved Vader for all but 10 seconds.

If he was obeying the Emperor as Kamikz said, why would he try to overthrow him? Especially if he knew the Empire would crumble under his rule.

There are only two Sith, with Vader down and Luke consumed by the Darkside, the Emperor would tell Luke to kill Vader. Do you really think Vader would put himself in a position like that? Especially after seeing what happened to Dooku.

Yeah Luke is so stupid........ being able to rescue Han and sabotage the palace cruiser(whatever the hell it was).

According to everyone here Vader is slow to deflect or dodge anything(which I disagree with).

That's what I said.

Why are we even talking about AotC Anakin?

AOTC Anakin doesn't even matter read the rest of the point made two posts or so ago, it deals with the matter perfectly.

Well he had been taken over by the Darkside, that's what happens when you get taken over by it.

Exactly so your argument Luke was holding back at that time is moot. Thanks for admitting to that.

Luke loved Vader for all but 10 seconds.

Change love to had feelings for, cared about.. And Luke isn't important here, Vader is... Who cared about Luke the entire time. Ergo our reasoning that he wasn't trying his very best.

Luke on the other hand like you yourself said had no such restrictions.

If he was obeying the Emperor as Kamikz said, why would he try to overthrow him? Especially if he knew the Empire would crumble under his rule.

He's a Sith, Sith try to take over from their master, its their goal... Its what they want to do. Also how would the Empire crumble under Vader his rule, as Emperor he would still be unchallanged he would still have the loyalty of the troops and no commander would move against him, so I fail to see the problem.

There are only two Sith, with Vader down and Luke consumed by the Darkside, the Emperor would tell Luke to kill Vader. Do you really think Vader would put himself in a position like that? Especially after seeing what happened to Dooku.

There could be a lot of reasons three most likely reasons.

1.) He believed that Luke would join him if he became Dark and help him against Palpatine so that they could rule together like he propossed in ESB.

2.) He believed Palpatine was willing to break the rule of two, afterall the rule was established to make sure the Sith could rule,the Sith were rulling why stick to it?

3.) He was an idiot.

You pick 1 and 2 are most likely, and very likely true.

Yeah Luke is so stupid........ being able to rescue Han and sabotage the palace cruiser(whatever the hell it was).

He had his hand up in the air and got shot in the hand, why would anybody shoot in the air unless his hand was there? Meaning he moved his hand in the air some guard with a gun (of which there were few) saw it and shot and Luke got hit, doesn't speak to well for him.

Also to quote myself.

That shows far less skill then a little kid killing half a dozen clone troopers who are heavily armed and all aiming at him. Unlike a few guards who also had half a dozen targets. Also Leia managed to kill their boss then run to the top of the boat shoot with the biggest gun and jump away with Luke... Shows the skill of those guards....

Adress the rest of the pots please.

According to everyone here Vader is slow to deflect or dodge anything(which I disagree with).

Show me one place where that is said, and its contradicted by the movie which shows Vader being able to move faster then Luke so it doesn't matter.

That's what I said.

Oops, for some reason it didn't post a part of my post... Well what I was trying to say in ESB we see that Vader has the speed with a lightsaber to move it between these huge ass strikes of Luke, he could have taken Luke out. The evidence is right there just watch ESB, he didn't want to kill Luke. He more then had the speed the power and the oppertunity to do so, something was holding him back.

Originally posted by Fishy
AOTC Anakin doesn't even matter read the rest of the point made two posts or so ago, it deals with the matter perfectly.

Exactly so your argument Luke was holding back at that time is moot. Thanks for admitting to that.

Change love to had feelings for, cared about.. And Luke isn't important here, Vader is... Who cared about Luke the entire time. Ergo our reasoning that he wasn't trying his very best.

Luke on the other hand like you yourself said had no such restrictions.

He's a Sith, Sith try to take over from their master, its their goal... Its what they want to do. Also how would the Empire crumble under Vader his rule, as Emperor he would still be unchallanged he would still have the loyalty of the troops and no commander would move against him, so I fail to see the problem.

There could be a lot of reasons three most likely reasons.

1.) He believed that Luke would join him if he became Dark and help him against Palpatine so that they could rule together like he propossed in ESB.

2.) He believed Palpatine was willing to break the rule of two, afterall the rule was established to make sure the Sith could rule,the Sith were rulling why stick to it?

3.) He was an idiot.

You pick 1 and 2 are most likely, and very likely true.

He had his hand up in the air and got shot in the hand, why would anybody shoot in the air unless his hand was there? Meaning he moved his hand in the air some guard with a gun (of which there were few) saw it and shot and Luke got hit, doesn't speak to well for him.

Also to quote myself.

Adress the rest of the pots please.

Show me one place where that is said, and its contradicted by the movie which shows Vader being able to move faster then Luke so it doesn't matter.

Oops, for some reason it didn't post a part of my post... Well what I was trying to say in ESB we see that Vader has the speed with a lightsaber to move it between these huge ass strikes of Luke, he could have taken Luke out. The evidence is right there just watch ESB, he didn't want to kill Luke. He more then had the speed the power and the oppertunity to do so, something was holding him back.

Okay....

I said Luke wasn't holding back when he was using the darkside. If he wasn't holding back when he kicked Vader down he would have jumped down and stabbed him as easily as you say Vader could stab Luke as he is getting viciously attacked.

Of course Luke is important, he wasn't giving it his best, using his full potential.

He was restricted to killing him for all but 10 seconds.

Vader isn't as politically informed as the Emperor is.

Luke was fighting against the Darkside, why would he join?

Why would Palpatine be willing to break that rule? He killed Dooku for Vader, I doubt he would break the rule. It was Dooku who wanted to break the rule.

Vader was not stupid.

Unless someone completely wiffed his hand......... that was stupid....... but everyone makes mistakes.

I don't feel like searching, but I have seen it many times before, ask some people and they will tell you.

So..... what's your point we are talking about RotJ...

Edit: could you please start using quotes, for each of the point Like I am... Makes things a lot easier to read.

I said Luke wasn't holding back when he was using the darkside. If he wasn't holding back when he kicked Vader down he would have jumped down and stabbed him as easily as you say Vader could stab Luke as he is getting viciously attacked.

So do you wish to say that Vader would been dead if Luke had been trying his hardest already then? Possible that Luke was holding back at that time, but again so was Vader so the kick wasn't really all that impressive.. Nice but nothing to show him as more powerful.

Of course Luke is important, he wasn't giving it his best, using his full potential.

Luke his feelings aren't important in a fight when we argue about Vader holding back, and you just agreed that Luke was trying his best at one point in the fight the point when he beat Vader who wasn't trying his best, so you kinda agreed with me in an earlier statement. But it doesn't really matter.

He was restricted to killing him for all but 10 seconds.

Ten seconds in which he went mad and knocked down the physically far more powerful Vader with a weightless weapon. Explain how he could have done that if Vader was trying his best. Vader tripped or something, he just kinda sat down in ROTJ. Luke his skill did not defeat Vader.

Vader isn't as politically informed as the Emperor is.

So what? Are you now claiming that Vader did not want to overthrow Palps like he claimed in ESB. Are you saying that Vader would not want to destroy his Sith Master, even though thats the entire point of the Sith ideal. Vader had no greater motive then taking out Palpatine and becoming the Dark Lord.

Luke was fighting against the Darkside, why would he join?

You just said yourself Vader was trying to lure him to the Dark Side and Luke gave in to his anger and hatred and then attacked Vader and knocked him back. Vader had him exactly where he wanted him too. Why would he have killed Luke then?

Why would Palpatine be willing to break that rule? He killed Dooku for Vader, I doubt he would break the rule. It was Dooku who wanted to break the rule.

Its something that Anakin could have believed, and why? I already explained that in the speculation post itself. Because the goal of the rule of two was accomplished maybe Vader thought that it was time to build a strong Sith Empire with a lot of Sith again... Or at least believed that Palps believed that.

Vader was not stupid.

Like I said it was most likely the first or the second reason.

Unless someone completely wiffed his hand......... that was stupid....... but everyone makes mistakes.

It remains stupid, and you still haven't addressed the rest of the point like I asked you. You ignored it twice, are you just unable to debate it and ignoring it on purpose or do you just keep on missing it?

I don't feel like searching, but I have seen it many times before, ask some people and they will tell you.

Even if you are right, which I don't believe because I have never seen a statement like that, then it still wouldn't matter because the movies contradict it.

So..... what's your point we are talking about RotJ...

The point in the last point of that post, which really is the only that matters is that Vader as seen in ESB has the power and the speed to move his lightsaber around fast enough to cut between Luke his attacks. He would have could have and should have cut Luke down, if he wanted to fight. In ESB we see he is clearly able to do so. So why wouldn't he do so in ROTJ? Unless of course he didn't want to kill his son.

Originally posted by mace=badass
\

Okay....

I said Luke wasn't holding back when he was using the darkside. If he wasn't holding back when he kicked Vader down he would have jumped down and stabbed him as easily as you say Vader could stab Luke as he is getting viciously attacked.

Of course Luke is important, he wasn't giving it his best, using his full potential.

He was restricted to killing him for all but 10 seconds.

Vader isn't as politically informed as the Emperor is.

Luke was fighting against the Darkside, why would he join?

Why would Palpatine be willing to break that rule? He killed Dooku for Vader, I doubt he would break the rule. It was Dooku who wanted to break the rule.

Vader was not stupid.

Unless someone completely wiffed his hand......... that was stupid....... but everyone makes mistakes.

I don't feel like searching, but I have seen it many times before, ask some people and they will tell you.

So..... what's your point we are talking about RotJ...

Apparently Luke was the one attacking, Vader was the one defending. Luke had just recently made the decition to strike at Palpatine, thus giving in to his hate. Then Vader parrys the strike, Luke fights him and kicks him down the stairs. Not much holding back here. And Vader's style is an agressive style, still he is only defending in this fight.

Yes he was, Vader wasen't though.

^

Anakin was also fighting against the dark side, so was every jedi in Star Wars, but they still fall when they can't control their emotions.

Because when Dooku and Sidious were Sith they didn't rule the Galaxy. As Fishy said, they were ment to be 2 when they were not controlling the Galaxy, but at this time Sidious did.

Ok so it must be one of the other two then.

Not such a dumb mistake. An experienced warrior or a good jedi would not do that in a battle.

And to your earlier post, quote:
Why are we even talking about AotC Anakin?

I brought him up to show that it is completly illogical that ROTJ Luke could defeat Vader. Here.

Darth Vader was better than AOTC Anakin. He had much, much more experience, were calmer, more force techniques, had grown in potential, had mastered his swordstyle.

AOTC Anakin had been a jedi for 10 years. In those 10 years he studied each and every day, getting experience from missions with Obi-Wan and professional sword and force traning. Anakin also had a higher midichlorian count than Luke (thus he would grow more powerful than Luke, and his power would grow faster too).

And now we have ROTJ Luke. He has practised as a jedi for 8 months. He has no teachers, no sparring partners, a much worse traning time so to say. Now how can Luke, with worse traning, less traning, and being weaker in the force than his father, surpass AOTC Anakin who had trained for about 9 years more, gotten better traning, grown in the force faster and acctually used his lightsaber and force during missions.
Makes no sense at all, and to say that Luke would WTFPWN someone who would Pwn AOTC Anakin makes even less.

Originally posted by Fishy
Edit: could you please start using quotes, for each of the point Like I am... Makes things a lot easier to read.

So do you wish to say that Vader would been dead if Luke had been trying his hardest already then? Possible that Luke was holding back at that time, but again so was Vader so the kick wasn't really all that impressive.. Nice but nothing to show him as more powerful.

Luke his feelings aren't important in a fight when we argue about Vader holding back, and you just agreed that Luke was trying his best at one point in the fight the point when he beat Vader who wasn't trying his best, so you kinda agreed with me in an earlier statement. But it doesn't really matter.

Ten seconds in which he went mad and knocked down the physically far more powerful Vader with a weightless weapon. Explain how he could have done that if Vader was trying his best. Vader tripped or something, he just kinda sat down in ROTJ. Luke his skill did not defeat Vader.

So what? Are you now claiming that Vader did not want to overthrow Palps like he claimed in ESB. Are you saying that Vader would not want to destroy his Sith Master, even though thats the entire point of the Sith ideal. Vader had no greater motive then taking out Palpatine and becoming the Dark Lord.

You just said yourself Vader was trying to lure him to the Dark Side and Luke gave in to his anger and hatred and then attacked Vader and knocked him back. Vader had him exactly where he wanted him too. Why would he have killed Luke then?

Its something that Anakin could have believed, and why? I already explained that in the speculation post itself. Because the goal of the rule of two was accomplished maybe Vader thought that it was time to build a strong Sith Empire with a lot of Sith again... Or at least believed that Palps believed that.

Like I said it was most likely the first or the second reason.

It remains stupid, and you still haven't addressed the rest of the point like I asked you. You ignored it twice, are you just unable to debate it and ignoring it on purpose or do you just keep on missing it?

Even if you are right, which I don't believe because I have never seen a statement like that, then it still wouldn't matter because the movies contradict it.

The point in the last point of that post, which really is the only that matters is that Vader as seen in ESB has the power and the speed to move his lightsaber around fast enough to cut between Luke his attacks. He would have could have and should have cut Luke down, if he wanted to fight. In ESB we see he is clearly able to do so. So why wouldn't he do so in ROTJ? Unless of course he didn't want to kill his son.

Okay, they weren't trying their best. Vader had conflict in him. But Luke did not want to destroy him.

Originally posted by Fishy
Edit: could you please start using quotes, for each of the point Like I am... Makes things a lot easier to read.

So do you wish to say that Vader would been dead if Luke had been trying his hardest already then? Possible that Luke was holding back at that time, but again so was Vader so the kick wasn't really all that impressive.. Nice but nothing to show him as more powerful.

Luke his feelings aren't important in a fight when we argue about Vader holding back, and you just agreed that Luke was trying his best at one point in the fight the point when he beat Vader who wasn't trying his best, so you kinda agreed with me in an earlier statement. But it doesn't really matter.

Ten seconds in which he went mad and knocked down the physically far more powerful Vader with a weightless weapon. Explain how he could have done that if Vader was trying his best. Vader tripped or something, he just kinda sat down in ROTJ. Luke his skill did not defeat Vader.

So what? Are you now claiming that Vader did not want to overthrow Palps like he claimed in ESB. Are you saying that Vader would not want to destroy his Sith Master, even though thats the entire point of the Sith ideal. Vader had no greater motive then taking out Palpatine and becoming the Dark Lord.

You just said yourself Vader was trying to lure him to the Dark Side and Luke gave in to his anger and hatred and then attacked Vader and knocked him back. Vader had him exactly where he wanted him too. Why would he have killed Luke then?

Its something that Anakin could have believed, and why? I already explained that in the speculation post itself. Because the goal of the rule of two was accomplished maybe Vader thought that it was time to build a strong Sith Empire with a lot of Sith again... Or at least believed that Palps believed that.

Like I said it was most likely the first or the second reason.

It remains stupid, and you still haven't addressed the rest of the point like I asked you. You ignored it twice, are you just unable to debate it and ignoring it on purpose or do you just keep on missing it?

Even if you are right, which I don't believe because I have never seen a statement like that, then it still wouldn't matter because the movies contradict it.

The point in the last point of that post, which really is the only that matters is that Vader as seen in ESB has the power and the speed to move his lightsaber around fast enough to cut between Luke his attacks. He would have could have and should have cut Luke down, if he wanted to fight. In ESB we see he is clearly able to do so. So why wouldn't he do so in ROTJ? Unless of course he didn't want to kill his son.

Without Luke's feelings about Vader, Vader would have never gotten his feelings about Luke. If Luke never believed he could bring him back, Vader wouldn't want to be redeemed. So Luke's feelings are important.

Originally posted by Fishy
Edit: could you please start using quotes, for each of the point Like I am... Makes things a lot easier to read.

So do you wish to say that Vader would been dead if Luke had been trying his hardest already then? Possible that Luke was holding back at that time, but again so was Vader so the kick wasn't really all that impressive.. Nice but nothing to show him as more powerful.

Luke his feelings aren't important in a fight when we argue about Vader holding back, and you just agreed that Luke was trying his best at one point in the fight the point when he beat Vader who wasn't trying his best, so you kinda agreed with me in an earlier statement. But it doesn't really matter.

Ten seconds in which he went mad and knocked down the physically far more powerful Vader with a weightless weapon. Explain how he could have done that if Vader was trying his best. Vader tripped or something, he just kinda sat down in ROTJ. Luke his skill did not defeat Vader.

So what? Are you now claiming that Vader did not want to overthrow Palps like he claimed in ESB. Are you saying that Vader would not want to destroy his Sith Master, even though thats the entire point of the Sith ideal. Vader had no greater motive then taking out Palpatine and becoming the Dark Lord.

You just said yourself Vader was trying to lure him to the Dark Side and Luke gave in to his anger and hatred and then attacked Vader and knocked him back. Vader had him exactly where he wanted him too. Why would he have killed Luke then?

Its something that Anakin could have believed, and why? I already explained that in the speculation post itself. Because the goal of the rule of two was accomplished maybe Vader thought that it was time to build a strong Sith Empire with a lot of Sith again... Or at least believed that Palps believed that.

Like I said it was most likely the first or the second reason.

It remains stupid, and you still haven't addressed the rest of the point like I asked you. You ignored it twice, are you just unable to debate it and ignoring it on purpose or do you just keep on missing it?

Even if you are right, which I don't believe because I have never seen a statement like that, then it still wouldn't matter because the movies contradict it.

The point in the last point of that post, which really is the only that matters is that Vader as seen in ESB has the power and the speed to move his lightsaber around fast enough to cut between Luke his attacks. He would have could have and should have cut Luke down, if he wanted to fight. In ESB we see he is clearly able to do so. So why wouldn't he do so in ROTJ? Unless of course he didn't want to kill his son.

I never said Vader was trying his best. But Luke was trying his best for that brief amount of time. The 10 seconds at the end. But no the rest of the battle. Luke could have killed Vader at the end but realized what he was doing and stopped.

Originally posted by Fishy
Edit: could you please start using quotes, for each of the point Like I am... Makes things a lot easier to read.

So do you wish to say that Vader would been dead if Luke had been trying his hardest already then? Possible that Luke was holding back at that time, but again so was Vader so the kick wasn't really all that impressive.. Nice but nothing to show him as more powerful.

Luke his feelings aren't important in a fight when we argue about Vader holding back, and you just agreed that Luke was trying his best at one point in the fight the point when he beat Vader who wasn't trying his best, so you kinda agreed with me in an earlier statement. But it doesn't really matter.

Ten seconds in which he went mad and knocked down the physically far more powerful Vader with a weightless weapon. Explain how he could have done that if Vader was trying his best. Vader tripped or something, he just kinda sat down in ROTJ. Luke his skill did not defeat Vader.

So what? Are you now claiming that Vader did not want to overthrow Palps like he claimed in ESB. Are you saying that Vader would not want to destroy his Sith Master, even though thats the entire point of the Sith ideal. Vader had no greater motive then taking out Palpatine and becoming the Dark Lord.

You just said yourself Vader was trying to lure him to the Dark Side and Luke gave in to his anger and hatred and then attacked Vader and knocked him back. Vader had him exactly where he wanted him too. Why would he have killed Luke then?

Its something that Anakin could have believed, and why? I already explained that in the speculation post itself. Because the goal of the rule of two was accomplished maybe Vader thought that it was time to build a strong Sith Empire with a lot of Sith again... Or at least believed that Palps believed that.

Like I said it was most likely the first or the second reason.

It remains stupid, and you still haven't addressed the rest of the point like I asked you. You ignored it twice, are you just unable to debate it and ignoring it on purpose or do you just keep on missing it?

Even if you are right, which I don't believe because I have never seen a statement like that, then it still wouldn't matter because the movies contradict it.

The point in the last point of that post, which really is the only that matters is that Vader as seen in ESB has the power and the speed to move his lightsaber around fast enough to cut between Luke his attacks. He would have could have and should have cut Luke down, if he wanted to fight. In ESB we see he is clearly able to do so. So why wouldn't he do so in ROTJ? Unless of course he didn't want to kill his son.

I'm sure Vader wanted to overthrow Palpatine in ESB but not in RotJ. We aren't discussing ESB we are discussing RotJ, so that does not matter.

Originally posted by Fishy
Edit: could you please start using quotes, for each of the point Like I am... Makes things a lot easier to read.

So do you wish to say that Vader would been dead if Luke had been trying his hardest already then? Possible that Luke was holding back at that time, but again so was Vader so the kick wasn't really all that impressive.. Nice but nothing to show him as more powerful.

Luke his feelings aren't important in a fight when we argue about Vader holding back, and you just agreed that Luke was trying his best at one point in the fight the point when he beat Vader who wasn't trying his best, so you kinda agreed with me in an earlier statement. But it doesn't really matter.

Ten seconds in which he went mad and knocked down the physically far more powerful Vader with a weightless weapon. Explain how he could have done that if Vader was trying his best. Vader tripped or something, he just kinda sat down in ROTJ. Luke his skill did not defeat Vader.

So what? Are you now claiming that Vader did not want to overthrow Palps like he claimed in ESB. Are you saying that Vader would not want to destroy his Sith Master, even though thats the entire point of the Sith ideal. Vader had no greater motive then taking out Palpatine and becoming the Dark Lord.

You just said yourself Vader was trying to lure him to the Dark Side and Luke gave in to his anger and hatred and then attacked Vader and knocked him back. Vader had him exactly where he wanted him too. Why would he have killed Luke then?

Its something that Anakin could have believed, and why? I already explained that in the speculation post itself. Because the goal of the rule of two was accomplished maybe Vader thought that it was time to build a strong Sith Empire with a lot of Sith again... Or at least believed that Palps believed that.

Like I said it was most likely the first or the second reason.

It remains stupid, and you still haven't addressed the rest of the point like I asked you. You ignored it twice, are you just unable to debate it and ignoring it on purpose or do you just keep on missing it?

Even if you are right, which I don't believe because I have never seen a statement like that, then it still wouldn't matter because the movies contradict it.

The point in the last point of that post, which really is the only that matters is that Vader as seen in ESB has the power and the speed to move his lightsaber around fast enough to cut between Luke his attacks. He would have could have and should have cut Luke down, if he wanted to fight. In ESB we see he is clearly able to do so. So why wouldn't he do so in ROTJ? Unless of course he didn't want to kill his son.

When did I say that? Yeah, Vader wanted to be on the ground with Luke pointing a lightsaber at his face. But you just said there was conflict in him... so why would he want Luke to turn to the Darkside?

Originally posted by Fishy
Edit: could you please start using quotes, for each of the point Like I am... Makes things a lot easier to read.

So do you wish to say that Vader would been dead if Luke had been trying his hardest already then? Possible that Luke was holding back at that time, but again so was Vader so the kick wasn't really all that impressive.. Nice but nothing to show him as more powerful.

Luke his feelings aren't important in a fight when we argue about Vader holding back, and you just agreed that Luke was trying his best at one point in the fight the point when he beat Vader who wasn't trying his best, so you kinda agreed with me in an earlier statement. But it doesn't really matter.

Ten seconds in which he went mad and knocked down the physically far more powerful Vader with a weightless weapon. Explain how he could have done that if Vader was trying his best. Vader tripped or something, he just kinda sat down in ROTJ. Luke his skill did not defeat Vader.

So what? Are you now claiming that Vader did not want to overthrow Palps like he claimed in ESB. Are you saying that Vader would not want to destroy his Sith Master, even though thats the entire point of the Sith ideal. Vader had no greater motive then taking out Palpatine and becoming the Dark Lord.

You just said yourself Vader was trying to lure him to the Dark Side and Luke gave in to his anger and hatred and then attacked Vader and knocked him back. Vader had him exactly where he wanted him too. Why would he have killed Luke then?

Its something that Anakin could have believed, and why? I already explained that in the speculation post itself. Because the goal of the rule of two was accomplished maybe Vader thought that it was time to build a strong Sith Empire with a lot of Sith again... Or at least believed that Palps believed that.

Like I said it was most likely the first or the second reason.

It remains stupid, and you still haven't addressed the rest of the point like I asked you. You ignored it twice, are you just unable to debate it and ignoring it on purpose or do you just keep on missing it?

Even if you are right, which I don't believe because I have never seen a statement like that, then it still wouldn't matter because the movies contradict it.

The point in the last point of that post, which really is the only that matters is that Vader as seen in ESB has the power and the speed to move his lightsaber around fast enough to cut between Luke his attacks. He would have could have and should have cut Luke down, if he wanted to fight. In ESB we see he is clearly able to do so. So why wouldn't he do so in ROTJ? Unless of course he didn't want to kill his son.

If that is what he thought Palpatine wanted wouldn't Palpatine have saved Dooku and started a Sith Empire there?

Originally posted by Fishy
Edit: could you please start using quotes, for each of the point Like I am... Makes things a lot easier to read.

So do you wish to say that Vader would been dead if Luke had been trying his hardest already then? Possible that Luke was holding back at that time, but again so was Vader so the kick wasn't really all that impressive.. Nice but nothing to show him as more powerful.

Luke his feelings aren't important in a fight when we argue about Vader holding back, and you just agreed that Luke was trying his best at one point in the fight the point when he beat Vader who wasn't trying his best, so you kinda agreed with me in an earlier statement. But it doesn't really matter.

Ten seconds in which he went mad and knocked down the physically far more powerful Vader with a weightless weapon. Explain how he could have done that if Vader was trying his best. Vader tripped or something, he just kinda sat down in ROTJ. Luke his skill did not defeat Vader.

So what? Are you now claiming that Vader did not want to overthrow Palps like he claimed in ESB. Are you saying that Vader would not want to destroy his Sith Master, even though thats the entire point of the Sith ideal. Vader had no greater motive then taking out Palpatine and becoming the Dark Lord.

You just said yourself Vader was trying to lure him to the Dark Side and Luke gave in to his anger and hatred and then attacked Vader and knocked him back. Vader had him exactly where he wanted him too. Why would he have killed Luke then?

Its something that Anakin could have believed, and why? I already explained that in the speculation post itself. Because the goal of the rule of two was accomplished maybe Vader thought that it was time to build a strong Sith Empire with a lot of Sith again... Or at least believed that Palps believed that.

Like I said it was most likely the first or the second reason.

It remains stupid, and you still haven't addressed the rest of the point like I asked you. You ignored it twice, are you just unable to debate it and ignoring it on purpose or do you just keep on missing it?

Even if you are right, which I don't believe because I have never seen a statement like that, then it still wouldn't matter because the movies contradict it.

The point in the last point of that post, which really is the only that matters is that Vader as seen in ESB has the power and the speed to move his lightsaber around fast enough to cut between Luke his attacks. He would have could have and should have cut Luke down, if he wanted to fight. In ESB we see he is clearly able to do so. So why wouldn't he do so in ROTJ? Unless of course he didn't want to kill his son.

I doubt any of those reasons because of what I have stated before, like there being conflict in him, and stuff.

Originally posted by Fishy
Edit: could you please start using quotes, for each of the point Like I am... Makes things a lot easier to read.

So do you wish to say that Vader would been dead if Luke had been trying his hardest already then? Possible that Luke was holding back at that time, but again so was Vader so the kick wasn't really all that impressive.. Nice but nothing to show him as more powerful.

Luke his feelings aren't important in a fight when we argue about Vader holding back, and you just agreed that Luke was trying his best at one point in the fight the point when he beat Vader who wasn't trying his best, so you kinda agreed with me in an earlier statement. But it doesn't really matter.

Ten seconds in which he went mad and knocked down the physically far more powerful Vader with a weightless weapon. Explain how he could have done that if Vader was trying his best. Vader tripped or something, he just kinda sat down in ROTJ. Luke his skill did not defeat Vader.

So what? Are you now claiming that Vader did not want to overthrow Palps like he claimed in ESB. Are you saying that Vader would not want to destroy his Sith Master, even though thats the entire point of the Sith ideal. Vader had no greater motive then taking out Palpatine and becoming the Dark Lord.

You just said yourself Vader was trying to lure him to the Dark Side and Luke gave in to his anger and hatred and then attacked Vader and knocked him back. Vader had him exactly where he wanted him too. Why would he have killed Luke then?

Its something that Anakin could have believed, and why? I already explained that in the speculation post itself. Because the goal of the rule of two was accomplished maybe Vader thought that it was time to build a strong Sith Empire with a lot of Sith again... Or at least believed that Palps believed that.

Like I said it was most likely the first or the second reason.

It remains stupid, and you still haven't addressed the rest of the point like I asked you. You ignored it twice, are you just unable to debate it and ignoring it on purpose or do you just keep on missing it?

Even if you are right, which I don't believe because I have never seen a statement like that, then it still wouldn't matter because the movies contradict it.

The point in the last point of that post, which really is the only that matters is that Vader as seen in ESB has the power and the speed to move his lightsaber around fast enough to cut between Luke his attacks. He would have could have and should have cut Luke down, if he wanted to fight. In ESB we see he is clearly able to do so. So why wouldn't he do so in ROTJ? Unless of course he didn't want to kill his son.

What did you ask me to reply to, I must've not seen that... I do agree that move was stupid though. But like I said before, people make mistakes, like Dooku believing Palpatine about the three of them ruling, and Anakin turning to the darkside.

Originally posted by Fishy
Edit: could you please start using quotes, for each of the point Like I am... Makes things a lot easier to read.

So do you wish to say that Vader would been dead if Luke had been trying his hardest already then? Possible that Luke was holding back at that time, but again so was Vader so the kick wasn't really all that impressive.. Nice but nothing to show him as more powerful.

Luke his feelings aren't important in a fight when we argue about Vader holding back, and you just agreed that Luke was trying his best at one point in the fight the point when he beat Vader who wasn't trying his best, so you kinda agreed with me in an earlier statement. But it doesn't really matter.

Ten seconds in which he went mad and knocked down the physically far more powerful Vader with a weightless weapon. Explain how he could have done that if Vader was trying his best. Vader tripped or something, he just kinda sat down in ROTJ. Luke his skill did not defeat Vader.

So what? Are you now claiming that Vader did not want to overthrow Palps like he claimed in ESB. Are you saying that Vader would not want to destroy his Sith Master, even though thats the entire point of the Sith ideal. Vader had no greater motive then taking out Palpatine and becoming the Dark Lord.

You just said yourself Vader was trying to lure him to the Dark Side and Luke gave in to his anger and hatred and then attacked Vader and knocked him back. Vader had him exactly where he wanted him too. Why would he have killed Luke then?

Its something that Anakin could have believed, and why? I already explained that in the speculation post itself. Because the goal of the rule of two was accomplished maybe Vader thought that it was time to build a strong Sith Empire with a lot of Sith again... Or at least believed that Palps believed that.

Like I said it was most likely the first or the second reason.

It remains stupid, and you still haven't addressed the rest of the point like I asked you. You ignored it twice, are you just unable to debate it and ignoring it on purpose or do you just keep on missing it?

Even if you are right, which I don't believe because I have never seen a statement like that, then it still wouldn't matter because the movies contradict it.

The point in the last point of that post, which really is the only that matters is that Vader as seen in ESB has the power and the speed to move his lightsaber around fast enough to cut between Luke his attacks. He would have could have and should have cut Luke down, if he wanted to fight. In ESB we see he is clearly able to do so. So why wouldn't he do so in ROTJ? Unless of course he didn't want to kill his son.

I do not think Vader is slow, I was just using the logic of some other people on this site.

Originally posted by Fishy
Edit: could you please start using quotes, for each of the point Like I am... Makes things a lot easier to read.

So do you wish to say that Vader would been dead if Luke had been trying his hardest already then? Possible that Luke was holding back at that time, but again so was Vader so the kick wasn't really all that impressive.. Nice but nothing to show him as more powerful.

Luke his feelings aren't important in a fight when we argue about Vader holding back, and you just agreed that Luke was trying his best at one point in the fight the point when he beat Vader who wasn't trying his best, so you kinda agreed with me in an earlier statement. But it doesn't really matter.

Ten seconds in which he went mad and knocked down the physically far more powerful Vader with a weightless weapon. Explain how he could have done that if Vader was trying his best. Vader tripped or something, he just kinda sat down in ROTJ. Luke his skill did not defeat Vader.

So what? Are you now claiming that Vader did not want to overthrow Palps like he claimed in ESB. Are you saying that Vader would not want to destroy his Sith Master, even though thats the entire point of the Sith ideal. Vader had no greater motive then taking out Palpatine and becoming the Dark Lord.

You just said yourself Vader was trying to lure him to the Dark Side and Luke gave in to his anger and hatred and then attacked Vader and knocked him back. Vader had him exactly where he wanted him too. Why would he have killed Luke then?

Its something that Anakin could have believed, and why? I already explained that in the speculation post itself. Because the goal of the rule of two was accomplished maybe Vader thought that it was time to build a strong Sith Empire with a lot of Sith again... Or at least believed that Palps believed that.

Like I said it was most likely the first or the second reason.

It remains stupid, and you still haven't addressed the rest of the point like I asked you. You ignored it twice, are you just unable to debate it and ignoring it on purpose or do you just keep on missing it?

Even if you are right, which I don't believe because I have never seen a statement like that, then it still wouldn't matter because the movies contradict it.

The point in the last point of that post, which really is the only that matters is that Vader as seen in ESB has the power and the speed to move his lightsaber around fast enough to cut between Luke his attacks. He would have could have and should have cut Luke down, if he wanted to fight. In ESB we see he is clearly able to do so. So why wouldn't he do so in ROTJ? Unless of course he didn't want to kill his son.

He didn't want to kill his son in ESB because he wanted to rule with him then but not in RotJ because there was conflict in him and he did not wan t to continue with his ways.

Lol... You didn't really understand how it worked did you? Well i'll come back to this later, kinda tired quickly gonna read the other threads and then i'm going to sleep... Don't feel like writing a huge ass reply right now.

Originally posted by kamikz
Makes no sense at all, and to say that Luke would WTFPWN someone who would Pwn AOTC Anakin makes even less.

It also makes no sense that Dooku beat Obi-Wan, Anakin beat Dooku, and Obi-Wan beat Anakin.

So you can't judge like that.

I have to go now though.

I hate to be the one to point this out here, but you were a huge supporter of Anakin beating Dooku fair and square because GL said so right? Well, I'm pretty sure GL also said that Luke beat Vader fair and square in the ROTJ commentary (something I never quite believed), so what do you think?

Was there any real improvement in his skills between then and ROTJ?

He sure as hell didn't train under Yoda or Obi Wan during that time, as he only returned to Yoda after having saved Han.

A young ling from the Jedi temple managed to ambush and kill a bunch of clone troopers with relative ease until he got shot from a lot of sides like many adult Jedi in that time.

even the two stormtroopers Luke refused to take out on Endor.

Luke also didn't manage to deflect the attacks of a few troops on Jabba's sailboat thingie, and got shot in his hand.

He used his lightsaber like it was a baseball bat, he would get creamed by anybody that would know how to move the thing, one quick slash and Luke would be dead.

Fanboy BS.

Then why didn't they just all fire at him, he reflects a few blaster shots at most and cuts down a few people with axes then when his hand is in the air he gets shot in the hand.

His hand was above his head, that shows how stupid he was.

All I know is the novel states that, during their duel, Vader beings to fear that Luke might actually now be stronger than him.

I see, but my questions was did GL confirm that Luke beat Vader fair and square in the ROTJ DVD commentary, because that was what I heard from rumours.

Duh.

But enough to do something like that? And the more important question would actually be, has Vader weakened since ESB?

Guess what? After ROTJ he didn't train under anybody and became the strongest Jedi ever.

Guess what he had holocrons and time... He also had other people there, he may have been the most powerful Jedi but that doesn't mean he was the most powerful in ROTJ. Anakin who has more potential then that guy didn't manage to grow as powerful as you claim Luke is in such a short time. It took him years to become even close to as powerful as he was when he turned into Lord Vader. Years, Luke with less potential could not achieve that in months, when he also had a lot of other none Jedi things to do.

That was no normal Padawan but Zett Jukessa. Anomaly said the avg. Padawan.

Even if he was better then the average Padawn of which you have no prove then it still wouldn't matter becuase Luke would have been surpassed by a Padawan... Well not even a Padawan the guy was still in the first stages of his training, he would have been WTFPwned by any Jedi and Sith and definitly by Vader unless you wish to argue that Vader was so weak that he couldn't even beat Zett.

So the point still stands, Luke was inferior to a Padawan.

What Stormtroopers? The ones by the Speeder bikes? He didn't want them to call in for back-up.

So he let Han and Chewie go in... Does that sound like something a Jedi with skill would have done? Hell no they would have jumped in the middle of those two troopers and cut them down with one or two stirkes, the troopers wouldn't have had a chance, like Zett did in ROTS... But obviously Luke wasn't skilled enough to do that...

He did block some right before Han "killed" Boba. And some more on the sail barge. He got hit in the hand because he was distracted by Leia.

Obi Wan managed to take out a lot of droids when gassed up by deflecting their blaster bolts. Anakin had a million emotions running through his mind and still managed to effectively fight Obi Wan. Obi Wan was fighting the hardest fight in his life and he still won. Luke getting distracted just shows he's not skilled enough.

Well, obviously the baseball stance was an efficient stance and one that Luke used to beat someone that knew how to move the thing cause if it was a bad one why would he have been taught it and Vader beat him.

It takes years to master a lightsaber style, years. Obi Wan had been using Soresu for 13 years and hadn't mastered it until ROTS. Anakin the same and it can be said he didn't master his style yet since it changed a lot. Thats 13 years of constant lightsaber training and 3 years of a war.. And these were Jedi their entire live, they did nothing else but use their lightsabers. Luke trained for a few months, he could not have mastered a lightsaber style no way in hell.

What is?

Your statement.

So what, he beat them all and pwnd Boba. Wpuld you be hapier if we said Zett's better at deflecting?

Last time I checked Boba was knocked out by Han not by Luke... Luke didn't pwn anybody. And his skill at deflecting blaster shots means something about how well he can handle his lightsaber. How fast and efficient. It just shows that a Padawan could move his lightsaber faster and better then Luke.

So were Anakin's in AOTC right before the Clones arrived.

Did Anakin got shot in the hand? No, Point moot.

I agree with everything Fishy is saying, except the Dooku not trying part when he was fighting Anakin.

From Lucas on the DVD commentary of ROTS

“...In this particular case the idea is that Palpatine is testing Anakin to see if he’s strong enough to become his apprentice and he doesn’t tell Dooku what he’s up to. Dooku thinks he's just going to fight him, but the whole thing is setup by the emperor to test Anakin’s strength and when Anakin is strong enough, which he proves to be by killing Dooku, then the emperor is ready to convert him over to the darkside to become his new apprentice.”

Lucas has said so himself. 1) It was the test to see if Anakin was the better choice for his apprentice. 2) Dooku DOES NOT know what Palpatine is up to, which is - Trying to convert Anakin to the darkside. 3) Anakin proves he is worthy of being Palpatine's new apprentice because he ends up being stronger then Dooku and killing him.

And unfortunately anything that was ever said in a EU book etc. about Dooku not trying/ knowing what Palpatine is up to is nullified by Lucas.

Actually in LOE Palps tells Dooku not to kill Anakin, okay that was a fight in LOE but the fight never happened, instead Dooku ran towards Coruscant and the fight happened there. Its possible that Palps gave Dooku other instructions but unlikely.

In the original script Dooku says to Palps "You promised me amnesty' or something like that, indicating that Dooku was told to lose. Anakin was also the better choice for the apprentice because he was willing to join the Dark Side, had far more potential and was younger and likely weaker. So Palpatine could form him more.

2. This could very well refer to Palpatine wanting Dooku to die, of course Dooku didn't know that otherwise he would have started fighting Palpatine.

3. Anakin proves that he is able to become Palpatine his apprentice by accepting the Dark Side and killing an unarmed opponent even if it was for the so called greater good.

Originally posted by mace=badass
It also makes no sense that Dooku beat Obi-Wan, Anakin beat Dooku, and Obi-Wan beat Anakin.

So you can't judge like that.

I have to go now though.

Have you ever thought about that Dooku faked to Anakin, he was told to loose. And has it ever struck you that when they were 2 on 1, Obi-Wan had to go on the offensive to work efficently with Anakin since they attacked. Obi-Wan is trained for defence, he uses a defencive style. Going on the offensive should not be his stronger side. But anyway, Dooku did not aim to kill Anakin.

He should have though.(I think it was a fair duel and he wasn't losing on purpose.) Otherwise Dooku is and idiot. With the rule of two Sith and all.

Originally posted by mace=badass
He should have though.(I think it was a fair duel and he wasn't losing on purpose.) Otherwise Dooku is and idiot. With the rule of two Sith and all.

Dooku could have been told a million things, perhaps just to turn Anakin to the Dark Side but not that Anakin would become a Sith, there were other Dark Jedi around. Perhaps Dooku believed that the time for the rule of two was over seeing as they were in a war against Jedi..

But we know for sure that Dooku didn't try his hardest, he talked to Anakin he didn't use his superior force powers like he did against Obi Wan, he didn't strike when he had the chance and he easily stopped both Anakin and Obi Wan, and then lost from only one of them? Dooku underestimated Anakin and died because of that, he wasn't surpassed by Anakin however.

The Sith and Jedi are always at war... If Dooku thought that was time he was stupid, because if they were going to break the rule of two, they would have done it before, like perhaps the start of the Clone Wars.

Originally posted by mace=badass
The Sith and Jedi are always at war... If Dooku thought that was time he was stupid, because if they were going to break the rule of two, they would have done it before, like perhaps the start of the Clone Wars.

The Sith and the Jedi had been at peace for a thousand years.

At the start of the clone wars there weren't a lot of Jedi ready and willing to convert, and there were Dark Jedi around in those same times that followed Dooku, Anakin could have been one of them. Or perhaps Dooku just believed that he would survive and that he could draw time until he could kill or get Anakin killed at a later time, or perhaps he hoped to kill Palps and become the Sith Lord ruling over Anakin after the clone wars ended.

Whatever the case there could be a million explanations for him not trying to really destroy Anakin.

Right before he was killed, he could have force-pushed Anakin with his little nublet hands.

Thats just unspeculated bs.