Waverider Vs Silver Surfer

Saw all the scans. Is there a scan of Waverider actually fighting and beating someone? From what I've seen of your scans, the only "feat" that was actually done in a fight was his BFR of DD.

It also looked like he got dispersed by Doomsday, tho. Got scans of that? 🙂

Also, why is he considered "mid-herald" in the tier list if he is as "powerful" as you say. Again, his powers are quite cheesy, I see the "time stop" to be his most effective method. But just wanna see if it was actually used to beat someone in a fight.

How come Waverider looks like the lead singer of Twisted Sister, Im just saying

Originally posted by the Darkone
How come Waverider looks like the lead singer of Twisted Sister, Im just saying

Because he's bad ass! 😛. J/K.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Saw all the scans. Is there a scan of Waverider actually fighting and beating someone? From what I've seen of your scans, the only "feat" that was actually done in a fight was his BFR of DD.

It also looked like he got dispersed by Doomsday, tho. Got scans of that? 🙂

Also, why is he considered "mid-herald" in the tier list if he is as "powerful" as you say. Again, his powers are quite cheesy, I see the "time stop" to be his most effective method. But just wanna see if it was actually used to beat someone in a fight.

H/P DD 'beat' WR by canceling out his energies. Don't see how that's pertinent here either? H/P DD was a solid trans-tier+ character of whom pummeled Darkseid as though he were a weak feeb.

Lmao. I've done far more that just "talk" about how powerful WR is-- I've provided scans to back up my 'claims'. So technically, WR is as powerful as DC says. As for the tiers thread: who cares? 🙂

Originally posted by Galan007
Waverider is one of the Linear Men. He doesn't involve himself in many 'brawls'-- that'd defeat his purpose. He safeguards the timestream w/o directly interfering in it(most of the time, of course.) Aside from that, I posed several scans of what he can(and has) done against elite heralds like Superman, Captain Atom, Shazam and Lobo, so what's the issue here?

The only thing I'm seeing in the scans, so far (when he got pitted against other characters), is him basically "time freezing" Lobo, dodging Captain Marvel (via teleportation or something) and "phasing" thru attacks and freezing time around Superman as well as being unaffected by heat vision and eye blasts. Impressive, no doubt. But I seem to be missing the context on why the scans provided would mean an auto-win.

Of course, the time freeze will be an awesome ability to use against the Surfer. And based on this ability, alone, would be arguably something that can make this fight one sided. I was actually curious if he's used it to beat someone in the past in a fight (KO'd someone, not just rendering them unable to fight him). Also, hasn't Surfer fought unhindered in a black hole before? Isn't time kinda wonky inside one of those?

Originally posted by Galan007
H/P DD 'beat' WR by canceling out his energies. Don't see how that's pertinent here either? H/P DD was a solid trans-tier+ character of whom pummeled Darkseid as though he were a weak feeb.

Was just wondering how it happened as the guy seemed to be able to just freeze time. How the heck was HP DD even able to touch him? If it's possible to cancel out his energies, wouldn't it be possible for the Surfer to do the same? Scans would be nice to establish context as I don't really know much about WR.

Originally posted by Galan007
Lmao. I've done far more that just "talk" about how powerful WR is-- I've provided scans to back up my 'claims'. So technically, WR is as powerful as DC says. As for the tiers thread: who cares? 🙂

No one's accusing you of just "talking", dude. I'm genuinely curious about the character. No need to get defensive.

I know you provided scans, it's just that, as a casual reader, all I saw were abilities used outside of combat. And isn't "arguing powerset" kinda the wrong way to go around these forums? From what I've seen, we need to establish how a character uses his abilities in a fight and use that to determine how he'd do against a specific opponent.

It is my understanding that the tiers were "established" via forum consensus garnered from a long period of featuring the character or at least debating about them. Just wondering why he wasn't placed higher.

Also, I'm not decided on who wins/loses here. That is why I need more information on the character.

Originally posted by Galan007
...And I don't see how Surfer is winning... With a board-strike.

Dude, don't bother. Quan already proved it, you're just wasting your metaphorical breath.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
The only thing I'm seeing in the scans, so far (when he got pitted against other characters), is him basically "time freezing" Lobo, dodging Captain Marvel (via teleportation or something) and "phasing" thru attacks and freezing time around Superman as well as being unaffected by heat vision and eye blasts. Impressive, no doubt. But I seem to be missing the context on why the scans provided would mean an auto-win.

Of course, the time freeze will be an awesome ability to use against the Surfer. And based on this ability, alone, would be arguably something that can make this fight one sided. I was actually curious if he's used it to beat someone in the past in a fight (KO'd someone, not just rendering them unable to fight him). Also, hasn't Surfer fought unhindered in a black hole before? Isn't time kinda wonky inside one of those?

Time-stop=incapacitated Surfer=WR wins. It can literally be that simple if it needs to be.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Was just wondering how it happened as the guy seemed to be able to just freeze time. How the heck was HP DD even able to touch him? If it's possible to cancel out his energies, wouldn't it be possible for the Surfer to do the same? Scans would be nice to establish context as I don't really know much about WR.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
No one's accusing you of just "talking", dude. I'm genuinely curious about the character. No need to get defensive.

I know you provided scans, it's just that, as a casual reader, all I saw were abilities used outside of combat. And isn't "arguing powerset" kinda the wrong way to go around these forums? From what I've seen, we need to establish how a character uses his abilities in a fight and use that to determine how he'd do against a specific opponent.

It is my understanding that the tiers were "established" via forum consensus garnered from a long period of featuring the character or at least debating about them. Just wondering why he wasn't placed higher.

Originally posted by Galan007
I feel like you're arguing just to argue. I posted several scans that showcase what WR can(and has) done. If you don't want to accept them as viable in a vs. battle for whatever reason, that's on you. I'm not going to involve myself in that side of things.

This is a debating forum (or at least I thought it was), isn't arguing supposed to be what we do here?

I just see a lot of ppl requiring evidence within a combat scenario before certain "feats" would be acceptable as a means for winning. I don't understand why WR would be suddenly exempt from this rule.

The scans you posted were impressive and all, but they were mostly defensive abilities. Time Stop, phasing, etc., those can prevent you from losing a fight. But they won't let you win one. What does WR have in offensive abilities that he's used successfully within his Time Stop?

Originally posted by Galan007
Time-stop=incapacitated Surfer=WR wins. It can literally be that simple if it needs to be.

"Incapacitating" Surfer via time stop would be a stalemate wouldn't it? Surfer's not hurting him, he's not hurting Surfer. WR has to show the offensive ability to KO Surfer while he has him in this state, and it has to be that he WOULD do this in-character.

And it is arguable that Surfer would be eternally time stopped (has WR even eternally time stopped someone before or has it always had some sort of duration?) and is it even within the character for WR to eternally time stop someone?

Originally posted by Galan007
I'm not going to theorize whether or not Surfer is capable of mimicking DD's haxxed adapt-on-the-fly ability. Surfer is not HP DD.

"Feat-to-feat" versatility-wise, I'd bet on Surfer more than I'd bet on HP DD. HP is much more physically powerful, true. But I wouldn't put it past Surfer to find a means to counter a time stop or find a means to disrupt WR's body.

I mean, if "time stop" was such a go-to ability for WR in a fight, why didn't he outright used it on DD for the easy win (or did he? like I said, I'd love the scans of the whole thing as I have limited info on WR).

Originally posted by Galan007
I'm not getting defensive. It just seems as though you're going to argue regardless of what I post, and I don't really see the need to get involved in that circle.

I don't do circular debates, man. I approach things as logically as I can. It's just that, while you have posted scans, the scans themselves do not really prove conclusively that WR would win this IMO.

For a character to win, he has to:

1) have a method to beat said character.

2) prove that this "method" is in-character for him to do. I mean you have ppl arguing that Surfer would never sharpen his board and decapitate ppl, it's obviously within his "powerset" to do, he just doesn't do it due to his character. WR has to be able to prove the same thing.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
I don't do circular debates, man.

Anyway, WR has preformed time-stops. He has shown immunity to physical AND energy-based attacks. He has operated on a nanosecond-by-nanosecond basis. He has manipulated an array of energies. Etc.

In short: WR has demonstrated the ability to incapacitate Surfer, at the very least(freezing him in time constitutes a forum win, btw.) Arguing for "KO feats" as if none of the aforementioned matters borders on ridiculous. So again: not going to indulge you there. 👆

Originally posted by Galan007
Quite Ironic, given that you're trying to preform circular argumentation in this very post(whether you realize it or not.)

Only because I feel like my points really weren't addressed. Up to you what you wanna do, tho. Just wanted to let you know that I feel like your logic has quite a few holes IMO. But if you don't wanna waste your time arguing it, then I'll prolly just go look for some other thread (I'm sick of Superman/Thor threads, tbh).

Originally posted by Galan007
Anyway, WR has preformed time-stops. He has shown immunity to physical AND energy-based attacks. He has operated on a nanosecond-by-nanosecond basis. He has manipulated an array of energies. Etc.

Time stop is a good strategy, like I said, but has a few holes in it. Surfer would be able to bypass his immunity if DD was ble to, IMO. Surfer has also operated within nanoseconds and prolly has better/wider energy manipulation "feats" (I don't even think it's that close based on the scans I've seen tbh but this could just be due to my limited knowledge or WR). Also, many of these weren't really done in a fight scenario...

Originally posted by Galan007
In short: WR has demonstrated the ability to incapacitate Surfer, at the very least(freezing him in time constitutes a forum win, btw.) Arguing for "KO feats" as if none of the aforementioned matters borders on ridiculous. So again: not going to indulge you there. 👆

"Incapacitated" relative to WR. I mean, if a character (like Flash) could perceive things far faster than his opponent (and would literally spend years within his relative percieved time before a second even passes in his opponent's time) would it mean he auto wins (even before he touches his opponent) vs 8th Day Juggernaut (or whatever that uber version of his was, don't remember too well) just because, to him, Jugs is "frozen in time"?

Also, it can be argued that Surfer would be able to eventually break out of it or at least do something about it.

How is asking "how exactly does WR win?" ridiculous? You provided scans and powersets, should I just take it at that and consider all my questions answered "just because"?

Originally posted by Nibedicus
"Incapacitated" relative to WR. I mean, if a character (like Flash) could perceive things far faster than his opponent (and would literally spend years within his relative percieved time before a second even passes in his opponent's time) would it mean he auto wins (even before he touches his opponent) vs 8th Day Juggernaut just because, to him, Jugs is frozen in time?

If time were stopped around Surfer, he would effectively be incapacitated. Thus, WR wins.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
But if you don't wanna waste your time arguing it, then I'll prolly just go look for some other thread (I'm sick of Superman/Thor threads, tbh).

Originally posted by Galan007
Bad analogy. WR stops time completely around him. There's no time dilation going on secondary to moving super-duper fast(ala your Flash analogy.) Time is literally (not figuratively or relatively) stopped/halted/not moving.

If time were stopped around Surfer, he would effectively be incapacitated. Thus, WR wins.

What's the difference, tho? Whether it be relatively or literally, what you're suggesting is that as soon as the time stop happens, it's an auto-win even before WR touches Surfer. What difference does this have with my Flash analogy? Time is stopped. Relative to WR's perception, Surfer isn't moving. Relative to Flash's perception, Juggernaut is not moving. Neither is incapable of fighting/helpless, just prevented from attacking during the duration. WR needs to prove that he can hurt the Surfer during this window.

Also, like I said, has WR done this to incapacitate an opponent indefinitely? If this was such a go-to ability, why didn't he use it on HP DD?

Also, it's not as if Surfer hasn't sensed thru time before or time traveled or warped time/space or functioned within an area where time is wonky (a black hole).

I don't recall Surfer being attacked via a time stop as the only persons I know who did that in Marvel when fighting has been Odin and the Keeper (a future Quantum bands wearing version of the Surfer) so it's hard to come up with evidences to prove otherwise as I don't recall Surfer ever being attacked by a time stop (I'll ask the Surfer experts if he did). But there is evidence that he CAN manipulate/affect chronal energies so it is plausible.

Originally posted by Galan007
Sounds good to me.

Edit. Didn't see this. Fine, will pursue other threads then. No hard feelings.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
What's the difference, tho? Whether it be relatively or literally, what you're suggesting is that as soon as the time stop happens, it's an auto-win even before WR touches Surfer. What difference does this have with my Flash analogy? Time is stopped. Relative to WR's perception, Surfer isn't moving. Relative to Flash's perception, Juggernaut is not moving. Neither is incapable of fighting/helpless, just prevented from attacking during the duration. WR needs to prove that he can hurt the Surfer during this window.

Also, like I said, has WR done this to incapacitate an opponent indefinitely? If this was such a go-to ability, why didn't he use it on HP DD?

Also, it's not as if Surfer hasn't sensed thru time before or time traveled or warped time/space or functioned within an area where time is wonky (a black hole).

I don't recall Surfer being attacked via a time stop as the only persons I know who did that in Marvel when fighting has been Odin and the Keeper (a future Quantum bands wearing version of the Surfer) so it's hard to come up with evidences to prove otherwise as I don't recall Surfer ever being attacked by a time stop (I'll ask the Surfer experts if he did). But there is evidence that he CAN manipulate/affect chronal energies so it is plausible.

This is a very simple concept: time dilation secondary to super-speed=/=time actually stopping. Juggernaut might appear to be frozen relative to Flash's speed, but that does not mean time is literally stopped around him-- Juggy is still capable of moving in time as freely as he normally would.

Conversely, WR doesn't simply dilate time in order to give the perception of time stopping-- he literally stops the flow of time entirely. eg. if it is 1:56:10pm it is going to stay 1:56:10pm for everyone, until WR allows time to flow again.

Because of this blatant difference, time dilation would not equate to a incapacitation win on KMC. Time stopping would.

Originally posted by Galan007
You're trying to split hairs here.

This is a very simple concept: time dilation secondary to super-speed[b]=/=tiOme actually stopping. Juggernaut might appear to be frozen relative to Flash's speed, but that does not mean time is literally stopped around him-- Juggy is still capable of moving in time as freely as he normally would.

Conversely, WR doesn't simply dilate time in order to give the perception of time stopping-- he literally stops the flow of time entirely. eg. if it is 1:56:10pm it is going to stay 1:56:10pm for everyone, until WR allows time to flow again.

Because of this blatant difference, time dilation would not equate to a incapacitation win on KMC. Time stopping would. [/B]

Thought we were done here? 😛

Excuse me, but isn't "splitting hairs" (to argue about very small differences or unimportant details) what you're doing and not me?

Time is relative to the observer. You're trying to differentiate "time dilation" and "time stop" and making one a win and the other not a win when effectively speaking, for the purposes of a forum debate, they're both (effectively) the same. What difference is a complete stop vs an effective slowdown of years when discussing a forum fight which would/should last no more than minutes or hours?

It's practically the same.

Edit. Plus you have to admit, that a time stop holding the Surfer indefinitely would be extremely arguable based on what he can do.

Dilating time via super-speed is not similar to stopping the flow of time all together. Using your initial analogy...

Flash vs. Juggernaut: Flash might be moving so fast that Juggernaut appears frozen in time relative to him, but in reality, Juggernaut is still moving forward in time as freely as he normally would-- second-by-second. As far as Juggernaut is concerned, nothing about the flow of time has changed. This is time dilation.

Waverider vs. Juggernaut: Waverider freezes Juggernaut in time. Juggy cannot move, he cannot think, he cannot speak... He cannot do anything. Why? Because he is frozen in time-- he is no longer moving forward in it. This is time stopping.

Dilation does not equate to an incapacitation win, because Juggernaut is still fully functional. If time is actually stopped around him, Juggy is no longer able to function, therefore he is effectively incapacitated.

If you still fail to grasp this basic concept, then I suggest on reading-up on these topics a bit more. I literally cannot be any more thorough, or make this any simpler, than I have.

Originally posted by Galan007
Dilating time via super-speed is not similar to stopping the flow of time all together. Using your initial analogy...

Flash vs. Juggernaut: Flash might be moving so fast that Juggernaut appears frozen in time relative to him, but in reality, Juggernaut is still moving forward in time as freely as he normally would-- second-by-second. As far as Juggernaut is concerned, nothing about the flow of time has changed. This is time dilation.

Waverider vs. Juggernaut: Waverider freezes Juggernaut in time. Juggy cannot move, he cannot think, he cannot speak... He cannot do anything. Why? Because he is frozen in time-- he is no longer moving forward in it. This is time stopping.

Dilation does not equate to an incapacitation win, because Juggernaut is still fully functional. If time is actually stopped around him, Juggy is no longer able to function, therefore he is effectively incapacitated.

If you still fail to grasp this basic concept, then I suggest on reading-up on these topics a bit more. I literally cannot be any more thorough, or make this any simpler, than I have.

Again: Time is relative to the observer.

To Flash, Juggernaut is effectively frozen (not thinking or has thoughts so slow it doesn't even begin to register within the moments Flash can interact), from Juggernaut's point of view, he is moving freely in time.

If WR "time freezes" Juggernaut, he is frozen in time (to WR). But from Juggernaut's point of view, he is moving freely in time.

In every practical sense, as forum fights go, that is exactly the same.

You keep saying that I have "to read up on these topics a bit more" when all you're doing is using basic semantics to differentiate two things that are effectively completely the same.

Edit. "Time dilation" or "time freezing" would render, to the time-stoppers/dilater's perception, the opponent effectively incapable of functioning within their relative observable time frame. To the frozen/dilated individual perception of time, he is still fully functional. Time is relative to the observer. How are you not failing to grasp that basic concept?

Originally posted by Galan007
Dilating time via super-speed is not similar to stopping the flow of time all together. Using your initial analogy...

Flash vs. Juggernaut: Flash might be moving so fast that Juggernaut appears frozen in time relative to him, but in reality, Juggernaut is still moving forward in time as freely as he normally would-- second-by-second. As far as Juggernaut is concerned, nothing about the flow of time has changed. This is time dilation.

Waverider vs. Juggernaut: Waverider freezes Juggernaut in time. Juggy cannot move, he cannot think, he cannot speak... He cannot do anything. Why? Because he is frozen in time-- he is no longer moving forward in it. This is time stopping.

Dilation does not equate to an incapacitation win, because Juggernaut is still fully functional. If time is actually stopped around him, Juggy is no longer able to function, therefore he is effectively incapacitated.

If you still fail to grasp this basic concept, then I suggest on reading-up on these topics a bit more. I literally cannot be any more thorough, or make this any simpler, than I have.

👆

Heck, in order for your time stop "incapacitation" method to be viable, it has to hold Surfer indefinitely.

From this scan, it seems that time stopping requires some effort for WR to maintain (with some timelines being more "insistent" than others).

Now, I know this happened in limbo (where time could have different rules) but it does seem to allude that he needs to maintain a time stop consciously in order to maintain it. Has he ever maintained a time stop indefinitely?

He wouldn't need to hold it that long in the first place. Anyway, that is just one of WR tactics that could work.

Originally posted by Golgo13
He wouldn't need to hold it that long in the first place. Anyway, that is just one of WR tactics that could work.

Why wouldn't he? The argument here is that a "time freeze" is a "win due to incapacitation" even though he hasn't even touched the Surfer. But when compared to how Flash would be vs the Juggernaut, there seems to be a difference due to duration or the fact that eventually Juggernaut would be able to interact within Flash's perception because he is not "completely" frozen. Not really the type or reasoning I find palatable.

What other tactics are there?

I mean, from the reasoning here, it looks like 10000000000000000x Guardian amped Superboy Primes would automatically lose to WR or Odin due to "time stop incapacitation". Am I hearing this right?