So your saying one guy has a better chance of success in fight over a mob of guys. Sorry I don’t buy that.
Revan could defeat Exar. Ulic tied him in combat. Malak might not be able to defeat him, BUT he could berate him with force powers and divert his concentration. I mean come on with the three of these powers Exar would be toast in lightsaber combat.
Second you’re downplaying Revan, as ridiculous as that is. You are in love with the comic series involving Ulic and Exar Kun, and state without any proof of Ulic’s superiority to Revan. Ulic tied Kun with one saber, and Revan could also tie Kun in saber combat. Precognition helps you know.
Originally posted by zephiel7
So your saying one guy has a better chance of success in fight over a mob of guys. Sorry I don’t buy that.Revan could defeat Exar. Ulic tied him in combat. Malak might not be able to defeat him, BUT he could berate him with force powers and divert his concentration. I mean come on with the three of these powers Exar would be toast in lightsaber combat.
Second you’re downplaying Revan, as ridiculous as that is. You are in love with the comic series involving Ulic and Exar Kun, and state without any proof of Ulic’s superiority to Revan. Ulic tied Kun with one saber, and Revan could also tie Kun in saber combat. Precognition helps you know.
Apparently you didn't watch the clip. It's not as simple as 1+1. It's not like having 2 people attacking is twice as effective as having one guy attack, that's the whole point. It's called Diminishing Marginal Utility. Just because you pile more guys on, doesn't mean they will continue to increase at a linear rate, understand?
Also, Revan can beat Exar? Comparing eras is difficult to do, particularly if you're going against conventional wisdom without any proof.
Also, considering Revan's era was considerably less stable and weaker than Kun's, where's your evidence that Revan could even beat Vodo?
Much appreciated, Illustrious. To address the various miscellaneous points...
I mean come on with the three of these powers Exar would be toast in lightsaber combat.
Perhaps you should read the top post. First battle is no Force. You definitely don't want the Force allowed, because it's the only chance for your precious KOTOR characters to come out on top.
Once the Force is allowed, Exar can merely blow them all away.
Even without the Force allowed, he walks away just fine with the win more often than not.
Precognition helps you know.
I like how you think Revan is the only Jedi ever to use precognition despite the fact that it's canonically shown that an untrained Anakin Skywalker can use it. Point is moot, Exar can see the near future too.
My Lord tdtd, no offense but you ARE a troll who comes out and offers endless one-liners about how pathetic we all are for ridiculous, hypocritical reason X, Y, or Z, ignoring that quite a lot of your time is spent trolling a Star Wars versus forum and that you've repeatedly debated out of ignorance and ignored logic and evidence.
Illustrious, Revan defeated Malak empowered by the Star Forge. The Star Forge was feeding off the Rakatans hatred for who knows how many years. The star forge was stated to be before even Kuns time. Face it: Revan and Malak learned a lot from the tomb's of the ancient Sith Lords, and also from Malachore 5. From these premises, Revan and Malak must have had considerable mastery of the force in order to control such an ancient and powerful device. The fact that Revan defeated Malak, infused by the Star Forge's power, a weapon that fed of the hatred and force of several Rakatan's is saying a lot. Let me give you a summary.
The Rakatans were a race ancient even in the Revan/Exar time. They built the Star Forge, a weapon that feed's on the force and uses it to build a massive fleet, as well strengthen the user powerful enough to control it. The Star Forge fed on the force of the Rakatan, and that's why they have been void of the force for centuries. The Rakatans themselves were strong in the force, heck their technology revolved around it.
The fact that Malak could control such a power, let alone be empowered by it speaks VOLUMES for himself and Revan. Malak was empowered by the force of an entire race and its technology, and was still WTFpwned by Revan. If Revan could pull of such a feat, he is obviously powerful in the force, stronger than Vodo could ever be.
Now about, Vodo. He empowered his staff to withstand lightsabers. Yea. Thats it.
If that's enough for him to beat Revan I can't believe it. Why didn't Exar empower a staff to withstand lightsaber's. BECAUSE IT WAS UNNESSCESSARY. Same goes with Revan .
Illustrious, Revan defeated Malak empowered by the Star Forge. The Star Forge was feeding off the Rakatans hatred for who knows how many years. The star forge was stated to be before even Kuns time.
Okay?
And Kun shredded a Sith Wyrm of Naga Sadow's, kicked the crap out of Vodo, and instakilled a thousand year old Jedi.
Your point? Throwing feats around won't get your point across, you have to put them in context. How powerful was Malak? How powerful was the Star Forge? Why should we have any reason to submit to your opinion if you won't provide us with the goods?
Face it: Revan and Malak learned a lot from the tomb's of the ancient Sith Lords, and also from Malachore 5.
And what exactly did they learn? And where's the canonical evidence they put said learning to use on anywhere near the scale Exar did?
From these premises, Revan and Malak must have had considerable mastery of the force in order to control such an ancient and powerful device.
They were the only considerable sith of the era who tried. Are you going to tell me that because they tried, but people like Kun, Ragnos, Sadow, Kressh, or Nadd didn't, that they are ranked higher than them because of said feat?
The fact that Revan defeated Malak, infused by the Star Forge's power, a weapon that fed of the hatred and force of several Rakatan's is saying a lot. Let me give you a summary.
And the Rakatan's had degenerated considerably, they were no longer a galactic threat, their ability to use the force diminished, and they weren't exactly any godlike Rakatans running around.
The Rakatans were a race ancient even in the Revan/Exar time. They built the Star Forge, a weapon that feed's on the force and uses it to build a massive fleet, as well strengthen the user powerful enough to control it. The Star Forge fed on the force of the Rakatan, and that's why they have been void of the force for centuries. The Rakatans themselves were strong in the force, heck their technology revolved around it.
The Jedi technology (such as a lightsaber) relies on use of the force. Sith technology relies on use of the force. Hell, even remnant technology had several objects that used the force. That alone is not saying much.
To recap, you need to provide evidence, put it in context, and compare it to provide your case. Simply stating that "Revan beat Malak" doesn't mean anything. Sidious beat Yoda, does that mean Sidious is the greatest? No, because there is no context, no comparison, and we don't know the circumstances.
The same is true for Revan.
The fact that Malak could control such a power, let alone be empowered by it speaks VOLUMES for himself and Revan. Malak was empowered by the force of an entire race and its technology, and was still WTFpwned by Revan. If Revan could pull of such a feat, he is obviously powerful in the force, stronger than Vodo could ever be.
And Ragnos' spirit was empowered by the force of dozens of planets and locations, and he still was beaten by Jaden. Why? Well circumstances. First off, possessing an already beaten Tavion is extremely limiting, secondly, we have no way of guaging how powerful the boost really was, so arguing it in a debate is fruitless speculation.
Kun's spirit was in a nexus of dark side energy, and he was defeated by Luke? How? Again, circumstances. Luke had over a dozen padawans at his aid, and he still barely had the ability to fight off Kun's 4000 year old, half-mad ionized air particles.
It's easy to distort facts, give me the damn context. So what if Revan beat Malak? How about Exar beating the de facto leader of a more powerful Jedi Order while simultaneously freezing thousands of sentients in the senate? How about Exar waving his hand and tossing other jedi like ragdolls? How about Exar destroying Freedon Nadd's spirit, who still had the ability to cause avalanches, make roofs collapse, attack people mentally, and floor Vodo?
Again, show me how this offers Revan the win?
If Revan could pull of such a feat, he is obviously powerful in the force, stronger than Vodo could ever be.Now about, Vodo. He empowered his staff to withstand lightsabers. Yea. Thats it.
Oh yeah, feat wars.
First off, Revan didn't "WTFpwn" Malak. The duel was described as "epic," you don't even know the circumstances. It's more likely than not that Revan squeaked away the victory than walked in there and beat him up.
Secondly, because Vodo isn't shown as walking into the Star Forge and beating up someone empowered by it means Revan's stronger than he ever will be? That's twisted logic. You haven't even established or quantified how much stronger the Star Forge makes someone. By that logic, because Revan or Malak never made a staff more powerful (yes, it said those exact words, don't argue) than a lightsaber, they'll never be as strong as Vodo.
Again, feat wars are pointless.
If that's enough for him to beat Revan I can't believe it. Why didn't Exar empower a staff to withstand lightsaber's. BECAUSE IT WAS UNNESSCESSARY. Same goes with Revan .
So being described as powerful and revered by the omniscient narrator (which means minimal hyperbole and distortion) isn't powerful? Or being the de facto leader of a more martial Jedi Order prior to the destruction of its stores on Ossus means he isn't powerful?
Being more powerful and revered than a Jedi who can literally root himself to the earth and feed off its energy, a Jedi who can cast battle meditation at will and strip people of the force, jedis who can trap other force users in a "wall of light" isn't enough?
Damn, I guess Marka Ragnos must suck, because all we ever see him do is cast illusions and possess bodies.
There's no logic behind those feats you offered.
zephiel7, although you make a great argument with Malak still losing to Revan even when Malak was empowered by SF, you have to remember that it was using a lot of power to build ships. Now, if Revan had defeated a Malak who had the power of the entire Rakata people behind him, then he would be up there with DE Sidious, who was able to destroy capital ships with the force(something Exar would probably be able to do, but I don't remember him ever actually showing power on that scale). Not that Revan would necessarily be better then Sidious since there were probably only a few thousand Rakata left, where Sidious drained the power of 6 billion people.
Your point? Throwing feats around won't get your point across, you have to put them in context. How powerful was Malak? How powerful was the Star Forge? Why should we have any reason to submit to your opinion if you won't provide us with the goods?
Malak and Revan were undisputedly THE strongest Jedi/Sith of their time. How much greater their power was with respect to the council is inconclusive, but we know they were WTFPWNING the Jedi council and the Republic after they returned as Dark Lords. Just how much of and outlier I can’t say with 100% accuracy however I can come to a logical conclusion based on the evidence presented below:
The Rakatans were a race ancient even by Vodo’s standards. Milennia before Revan/Exar they ruled the galaxy and possessed a powerful control over the force. They were so powerful in the force that heck, they built their entire civilization from it. They enslaved all the lesser races, they could have been as strong as the ancient sith, although that would be inconclusive. Nonetheless they were able to rule the galaxy UNTIL the Star Forge WTF sucked every single iota of force/midocholorian out of them and their technology. The fact that Malak could control such a device, so fully amplified by the force, speaks VOLUMES for him. The fact that Revan could defeat the Dark Lord of the Sith, amplified by a power ancient beyond even Kun’s knowledge, heck maybe even Ragnos’ speaks even MORE for him
They were the only considerable sith of the era who tried. Are you going to tell me that because they tried, but people like Kun, Ragnos, Sadow, Kressh, or Nadd didn't, that they are ranked higher than them because of said feat?
What Malak accomplished though was due to his knowledge in the force. I am giving it as an example of how powerful Malak has become, and how he could match up with people in the above list. Same with Revan because he defeated Malak empowered by the Star Forge.
And the Rakatan's had degenerated considerably, they were no longer a galactic threat, their ability to use the force diminished, and they weren't exactly any godlike Rakatans running around.
They were still godly at the point the Star Forge sucked the force out of them. That has been proven in game. Their entire civilization, their power was lost because the Star Forge sucked them of the force.
The Jedi technology (such as a lightsaber) relies on use of the force. Sith technology relies on use of the force. Hell, even remnant technology had several objects that used the force. That alone is not saying much.
None of the afore mentioned examples relied on the force so completely as the Rakatan’s did. EVERYTHING the Rakatan’s had relied on the force. That was why they fell so utterly.
To recap, you need to provide evidence, put it in context, and compare it to provide your case. Simply stating that "Revan beat Malak" doesn't mean anything. Sidious beat Yoda, does that mean Sidious is the greatest? No, because there is no context, no comparison, and we don't know the circumstances.
The Rakatans were old even by Vodo’s standards. Vodo empowered his staff with the force. The Rakatan’s empowered ALL their technology with the force. According to you, if Vodo’s accomplishments were big, then what the RAKATANS did was godly. Malak could control the force of this entire race.
And Ragnos' spirit was empowered by the force of dozens of planets and locations, and he still was beaten by Jaden. Why? Well circumstances. First off, possessing an already beaten Tavion is extremely limiting, secondly, we have no way of guaging how powerful the boost really was, so arguing it in a debate is fruitless speculation.
Kun's spirit was in a nexus of dark side energy, and he was defeated by Luke? How? Again, circumstances. Luke had over a dozen padawans at his aid, and he still barely had the ability to fight off Kun's 4000 year old, half-mad ionized air particles.
It's easy to distort facts, give me the damn context. So what if Revan beat Malak? How about Exar beating the de facto leader of a more powerful Jedi Order while simultaneously freezing thousands of sentients in the senate? How about Exar waving his hand and tossing other jedi like ragdolls? How about Exar destroying Freedon Nadd's spirit, who still had the ability to cause avalanches, make roofs collapse, attack people mentally, and floor Vodo?
Your two examples are of already weakened Sith Lords. You know how WTF weak sith spirits get over time. If Ragnos had the power of all those planets, then he would of WTF OMG ROFLMAO pwned Jaden Korr. Kun would have beat Luke.
Kun was using an offshoot of force wave. We’ve seen Vrook do it to the Exile. We have seen Kreia doing it simultaneously on three Jedi masters at once. Freedon Nadd was still a spirit. We have seen Revan defeat Ajunta Pall. The freezing the senate is impressive, but you must remember that they were not all force sensitives. Heck a good thousand of them may have just been craven weaklings.
First off, Revan didn't "WTFpwn" Malak. The duel was described as "epic," you don't even know the circumstances. It's more likely than not that Revan squeaked away the victory than walked in there and beat him up.
Ok, hyperbole sorry. The difficulty of the battle is inconclusive.
Secondly, because Vodo isn't shown as walking into the Star Forge and beating up someone empowered by it means Revan's stronger than he ever will be? That's twisted logic. You haven't even established or quantified how much stronger the Star Forge makes someone. By that logic, because Revan or Malak never made a staff more powerful (yes, it said those exact words, don't argue) than a lightsaber, they'll never be as strong as Vodo.
Malak, controlled the star forged empowered by a race that did more than just make lightsaber’s stronger than staves. The star forge was powered by an entire race who empowered their entire technology with the force.
So being described as powerful and revered by the omniscient narrator (which means minimal hyperbole and distortion) isn't powerful? Or being the de facto leader of a more martial Jedi Order prior to the destruction of its stores on Ossus means he isn't powerful?
Like I said, Revan was the strongest Jedi of the time. He was revered by the Jedi council as the best of the students at the time. During his fall, the council feared him like none other. Kreia called him “the heart of the force,” Kreia who was old enough to have been around during Kun. The narrators in this case treat him as a force god. That shows just how much of an outlier he was.
Being more powerful and revered than a Jedi who can literally root himself to the earth and feed off its energy, a Jedi who can cast battle meditation at will and strip people of the force, jedis who can trap other force users in a "wall of light" isn't enough?
Damn, I guess Marka Ragnos must suck, because all we ever see him do is cast illusions and possess bodies.
Bastila can cast battle meditation on thousands. Bastila is definately not stronger than Revan. Kreia consumed the force from three Jedi masters at once.
Marka Ragnos was revered by Naga Sadow and Ludo Kresh though, two people who could arguably tool any Jedi/Sith since. That speaks volumes.
Originally posted by zephiel7
Ok they were the strongest IN A WEAKER ERA, Exar was the strongest in a stronger era. And they personally were WTFpwning the jedi and the republic? Wow, and here I thought they had an entire army and the republic just finished fighting a major war.
The Rakatans were a race ancient even by Vodo’s standards. Milennia before Revan/Exar they ruled the galaxy and possessed a powerful control over the force. They were so powerful in the force that heck, they built their entire civilization from it. They enslaved all the lesser races, they could have been as strong as the ancient sith, although that would be inconclusive. Nonetheless they were able to rule the galaxy UNTIL the Star Forge WTF sucked every single iota of force/midocholorian out of them and their technology. The fact that Malak could control such a device, so fully amplified by the force, speaks VOLUMES for him. The fact that Revan could defeat the Dark Lord of the Sith, amplified by a power ancient beyond even Kun’s knowledge, heck maybe even Ragnos’ speaks even MORE for him
Ok how much power did the SF give Malak?
How much power did it take to control the SF?
As for them enslaving all lesser races, you do know that they only had around 500 planet right? As for your statement that they could have been as strong as the ancient sith, either back it up or do not say it.
As for Revan being able to beat Malak while empowered by the SF, unless you think that Exar or Ragnos could not have done this, it does not really apply
What Malak accomplished though was due to his knowledge in the force. I am giving it as an example of how powerful Malak has become, and how he could match up with people in the above list. Same with Revan because he defeated Malak empowered by the Star Forge.
Read above, Exar could have done that as well
They were still godly at the point the Star Forge sucked the force out of them. That has been proven in game. Their entire civilization, their power was lost because the Star Forge sucked them of the force.
And because of a disease that only killed Rakatan
None of the afore mentioned examples relied on the force so completely as the Rakatan’s did. EVERYTHING the Rakatan’s had relied on the force. That was why they fell so utterly.
Alright, not sure how this relates, moving on
The Rakatans were old even by Vodo’s standards. Vodo empowered his staff with the force. The Rakatan’s empowered ALL their technology with the force. According to you, if Vodo’s accomplishments were big, then what the RAKATANS did was godly. Malak could control the force of this entire race.
Wait a sec here, control the force of the entire race? That is an assumption and a half buddy. Provide proof for this, not hyperbole. W know that the SF required the force to use and over time the use drained the Rakatan, however unless you argue that Malak > than any and all Rakatans that ever lived that is simply not true
Your two examples are of already weakened Sith Lords. You know how WTF weak sith spirits get over time. If Ragnos had the power of all those planets, then he would of WTF OMG ROFLMAO pwned Jaden Korr. Kun would have beat Luke.
Kun was using an offshoot of force wave. We’ve seen Vrook do it to the Exile. We have seen Kreia doing it simultaneously on three Jedi masters at once. Freedon Nadd was still a spirit. We have seen Revan defeat Ajunta Pall. The freezing the senate is impressive, but you must remember that they were not all force sensitives. Heck a good thousand of them may have just been craven weaklings.
We saw Revan defeat Ajunta? That is in game and might not have happened in canon. Actually if I remember correctly a few weeks ago you were arguing Revan was LS, meaning he would have converted Ajnuta back to the light, not killed him. Also, even if Revan did beat Ajunta, he could have easily had two other jedi with him, also this is again a weak spirit form of him. Like you said, sith spirits get weaker over time.
As for 1000 of the senate being weaklings, sure possible, but Exar could still freeze them and all bodyguards in place as he slaughtered the Chancellor, then some jedi, Revan couldn't even detect that he was about to be shot while facing 3 jedi, which incidently does not speak well for his pre-cog
Ok, hyperbole sorry. The difficulty of the battle is inconclusive.
Then do not pass it off as conclusive evidence for your side
Malak, controlled the star forged empowered by a race that did more than just make lightsaber’s stronger than staves. The star forge was powered by an entire race who empowered their entire technology with the force.
Read above, Malak was not greater than an entire race
Like I said, Revan was the strongest Jedi of the time. He was revered by the Jedi council as the best of the students at the time. During his fall, the council feared him like none other. Kreia called him “the heart of the force,” Kreia who was old enough to have been around during Kun. The narrators in this case treat him as a force god. That shows just how much of an outlier he was.
Kreia is prone to hyperbole, also Kreia said that the Exile was the strongest she even trained, want to argue that Exile > Exar?
Also, since when was Kreia a narrator?
Ok they were the strongest IN A WEAKER ERA, Exar was the strongest in a stronger era. And they personally were WTFpwning the jedi and the republic? Wow, and here I thought they had an entire army and the republic just finished fighting a major war.
Um, how do we know that the Exar guys were stronger then the KOTOR guys? I mean, the Jedi hadn't faced a Sith threat in hundreds of years before Exar's time, where Revan began his training about the same time that Exar died. It would seem like the Jedi would try to bulk up their forces after the near catastrophe Exar caused.
