Darth Vader vs Superman

Originally posted by ZephroCarnelian
You've not refuted the fact that Vader is millions of times slower than Superman and thus can do nothing to react to him or attack him.

In the first splitsecond of the fight, Vader is dead.

🙂

Sure I have. Lazers move at the speed of light. Vader can deflect multiple ones. Therefore, Vader would see Superman coming, and chop his head off. But if you don't like the speed argument, then we can always include the fact that it would be out of character for Superman to come flying in at full speed, and that Vader could more than easily fry him with lightning, which livewire nearly killed him with. The problem here is that you have a bias. There is a reason in why I see Darkseid can beat Vader, yet Superman can't. I'm hardly a fan of either. I just happen to know plenty about both.

Don't know if this has been pointed out before but street level people dodge and deflect lasers all the time and last I checked they were not capable of moving at light speed.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
Sure I have. Lazers move at the speed of light. Vader can deflect multiple ones. Therefore, Vader would see Superman coming, and chop his head off. But if you don't like the speed argument, then we can always include the fact that it would be out of character for Superman to come flying in at full speed, and that Vader could more than easily fry him with lightning, which livewire nearly killed him with. The problem here is that you have a bias. There is a reason in why I see Darkseid can beat Vader, yet Superman can't. I'm hardly a fan of either. I just happen to know plenty about both.

You haven't proving anything. Your arguement has consisted of you disagreeing with offically approved information and no evidence to back up your theory.

As in movies and comic books things often do not work in the same way as they do in reality (a large dose of radiation giving you superpowers instead of killing you for example). You cannot simply use a definitional argument as "proof" when their is approved statements to the contrary.

I think darth vader is very formittable but the determining factor for him is teh fact taht superman moves so much faster than him

but once again, i question how superman would react to the force, he hasnt really been exposed to that type of "magic"

but i dont see a mind trick working on superman

overall, superman has the advantage simply becuase of his speed
as long as he doesnt run into the light saber

You haven't proving anything. Your arguement has consisted of you disagreeing with offically approved information and no evidence to back up your theory.

As in movies and comic books things often do not work in the same way as they do in reality (a large dose of radiation giving you superpowers instead of killing you for example). You cannot simply use a definitional argument as "proof" when their is approved statements to the contrary.

I have not proven anything have I? Then tell me: Why is it that this is the only one of my arguments you are focusing on? You've omitted the rest, so I take it that you concede to them. Again, the booklet doesn't count, simply because those kinds of things have been contradicted far too often. And again, it was approved in terms of profit, not story. But even if you don't want to agree with the fact that the lazers in the starwars universe do move at lightspeed, you still have to answer to all the other things posted. Such as Superman being fried by force lightning, or controlled by a mind trick, or force choked, due to the fact of it having the same properties as magic.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Don't know if this has been pointed out before but street level people dodge and deflect lasers all the time and last I checked they were not capable of moving at light speed.

http://img492.imageshack.us/my.php?image=69fbatagile12e1kn.jpg

Originally posted by The Ion
Too true. Here's Batman being faster than light.

http://img492.imageshack.us/my.php?image=69fbatagile12e1kn.jpg

they could be slow lasers........ Or bats just gained super speed or precog while are back was turned. That sneaky bastard.

Originally posted by The Ion
Too true. Here's Batman being faster than light.

http://img492.imageshack.us/my.php?image=69fbatagile12e1kn.jpg

Batman's invincible. Plus, those lazers were in stasis.

Originally posted by Black Adam
they could be slow lasers........ Or bats just gained super speed or precog while are back was turned. That sneaky bastard.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
[B]
I have not proven anything have I? Then tell me: Why is it that this is the only one of my arguments you are focusing on? You've omitted the rest, so I take it that you concede to them. Again, the booklet doesn't count, simply because those kinds of things have been contradicted far too often. And again, it was approved in terms of profit, not story. But even if you don't want to agree with the fact that the lazers in the starwars universe do move at lightspeed, you still have to answer to all the other things posted. Such as Superman being fried by force lightning, or controlled by a mind trick, or force choked, due to the fact of it having the same properties as magic.

I posted this on the second page:

[Superman can resist telepathic/mental manipulation or outright domination thanks to his Kryptonian knowledge of "Torquasm Vo" (a mental training technique).

As for the force choke: "it's been established that if the effect of magic is used to simulate or enhance a naturally occurring force (such as the natural elements or concussive energy, for example), Superman's natural defenses reacts to them normally."

He took a freaking hit form thor's magic hammer and punches from Shazam. Even if the Force is magic (its not) it isn't strong enough to hurt Superman.]

The force isn't magic and even IF it was as all it does is stimulate a natural occruing force (ie some choking you or lighting) Superman's defenses would work against it. Besides Vader can't produce Force Lightning as he doesn't have organic hands.

Yes, and I posted this on the third.......

Since you're going to keep going out of canon, I'm going to do the same. In the Jedi Knight series, force speed was described as being able to slow down time. Being the sith lord that Vader is, he could simply slow down time, walk up to Supes, and kill him at least 50 times.

The lazers in the starwars universe need no definition, as it is common knowledge that lazers move at the speed of light. Just like most of the arguments here, they are backed up by our knowledge and our understanding, not actually being stated in even universe. As for bullets, they slow those down quite well in the matrix, but does that mean they are as slow as a tortoise. It's merely special effects.

Superman was said to know a plethora of kryptonian martial arts, yet that still never saves him in fights with Batman or darkseid. Both have given him quite the beating. I assume that this mental blockade is the same. Still, from what we've seen in hush, it looks like that kryptonian mumbo jumbo didn't do him a bit of good.

The force is not magic. It is superior to magic. It is literally the power of the universe itself, and hasn't once shown any limitations. As for Superman's heat vision, it has shown limitations, such as barely being able to scorch the moon, whereas the lightsaber can cut through nearly, if not, then anything.

And the force lighning argument simply does not hold water. It's fact that Jedi can augment all senses and physical capabilities with the force. Darth Vader uses force speed all of the time(only way to deflect lazers), yet does not have organic hands. Here is another thing: he uses force grip in the movies multiple times, yet doesn't have organic hands. The physical body has nothing to do with manipulating the force.

And need I mention that livewire nearly killed Superman by frying him with high voltage? If it were not for the parasite's greed, he would have been dead. And if not for bad writing on other situations(such as extremely good luck), he would have been dead.

PS: Then again, what was I thinking? Forget this speed argument. Vader could just walk up to Superman, use force grip to hold him in place(just as Darth Tyranus had done in Episode Two), and proceed by chopping him into pieces.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
Yes, and I posted this on the third.......

And the force lighning argument simply does not hold water. It's fact that Jedi can augment all senses and physical capabilities with the force. Darth Vader uses force speed all of the time(only way to deflect lazers), yet does not have organic hands. Here is another thing: he uses force grip in the movies multiple times, yet doesn't have organic hands. The physical body has nothing to do with manipulating the force.

Since you seem to be missing the key points I'll go through all of your points so you can respond since the speed difference has been settled:

1. Force lightning wouldn't work on Superman. The force isn't magic and if it was, as a natural phenomina (lighting) that has been magically created (The Force) Superman's defense would work against it. And it take more than lightning to hurt Superman.
Also Vader can't make Force lightning because he doesn't have hands (this is why he has never used it in the comics or in the movies). It is a different power than, say, the Force Choke. It comes out of the hands and Vader just doesn't have have any. If I'm wrong show a scan showing Vader using it or saying he could.

2. Superman's Torquasm Vo would protect Superman from any telepathic attack. It took Max Lord years to get past his defenses. And as Superman would be moving at the speed of light, its not like Vader would have time to actually form a single thought.

3. Force Choke is the same as the Force Lighting. Its origin in the Force would not allow it to hurt Superman as it is based on a natural (in comics anyway) phenonmia: telekinesis

So how exactly do you think Vader would hurt Superman? His light saber? Maybe, but Superman has withstood a nuclear blast before and I doubt a light saber gets any where close to being as hot as that. Regardless, Superman can kill Vader in a hundred ways before Vader even realizes the fight has started.

Superman can do this to Vader. Notice how he is performing a wide variety of attacks simultaneously.

Wow, talk about SW fanboyism in this thread.

No, Vader doesn't stand a chance = Vader's destiny in this match

Originally posted by TheKahn
Since you seem to be missing the key points I'll go through all of your points so you can respond since the speed difference has been settled:

1. Force lightning wouldn't work on Superman. The force isn't magic and if it was, as a natural phenomina (lighting) that has been magically created (The Force) Superman's defense would work against it. And it take more than lightning to hurt Superman.
Also Vader can't make Force lightning because he doesn't have hands (this is why he has never used it in the comics or in the movies). It is a different power than, say, the Force Choke. It comes out of the hands and Vader just doesn't have have any. If I'm wrong show a scan showing Vader using it or saying he could.

2. Superman's Torquasm Vo would protect Superman from any telepathic attack. It took Max Lord years to get past his defenses. And as Superman would be moving at the speed of light, its not like Vader would have time to actually form a single thought.

3. Force Choke is the same as the Force Lighting. Its origin in the Force would not allow it to hurt Superman as it is based on a natural (in comics anyway) phenonmia: telekinesis

So how exactly do you think Vader would hurt Superman? His light saber? Maybe, but Superman has withstood a nuclear blast before and I doubt a light saber gets any where close to being as hot as that. Regardless, Superman can kill Vader in a hundred ways before Vader even realizes the fight has started.

The Speed issue hasn't been settled, unless you agree that the lazers in the starwars universe move at the speed of light.

1. I don't have one, alas it's simply illogical to say that he cannot, considering that the force can be used with or without organic matter. Heck, even planets are able to manipulate the force(dagobah), or the Star Forge. The comics have simply contradicted themselves, if they do state that Vader cannot use force lightning because of this. A better excuse would be claiming that Vader was never trained that far into the Dark side. Force choke comes out of the hands too. Heck, why do you think Vader makes that gripping motion. The force is in all things.

2. Poison Ivy mind tricked Supes during Hush, and Superman has simply proven himself to be far too naive over the years. Pre-cog+force speed>>>>>Speed of light. Blasters in the starwars universe move at light speed mind you, and are still deflected with precision.

3. Uh no. It's literally using the force to take control over the natural forces(hence that magic definition I had listed above), crushing Supes throat, or Superman's brain even.

4. For the umpteenth time, a lightsaber can cut through a door with the megaton and gigaton range(approx. 1000). Of course it well surpasses the shielding against a nuke.

Vader has so many ways of beating supes, it's not even funny. Tactics, he doesn't hold back, precog, intelligence, more powers, and a weapon that can cut through nearly anything. Whereas Superman is not willing to kill, nor is he willing to move at the light speed. Not even at the speed of sound. You'd think he would have done this while fighting faust, but no, he did not. Here's something else to think about: During one of there first meetings, the villain known as parasite snuck up on Superman from behind, and absorbed his powers. Did Superman use super speed? No? Did his greatly exaggerated senses detect him? No. When it all comes down to it, Kal-el is just a tree-hugger with super powers. Don't expect him to use them correctly.

1. Still nothing to prove it will affect superman
2. He didn't got controlled by Ivy with TP or similar. It was by a different means
3. Natural forces. wtf. Even if it did, so what? Even if it controls the fundamental forces, doesn't mean it's potency is impossibly strong to gauge. Considering it affects superman, it would probably one second kill just about anyone in the SW universe.
4. blowup. When did those blast doors become gigaton in range or > than nuclear bombs?

Don't tell me all your facts come from SD.net?

I'll agree with you on the speed of the blasters as soon as you disprove Pions Offical explanition

1. I take that to mean you couldn't find a example of Vader using Force Lighting.

2. She uses chemicals not telepathy.

3. The problem is that it isn't strong enough to choke Superman (as the Force "magic" would count as a weakness to Superman). The Force Choke is basically a form of telekinsesis and Vader simply can't exert enough force to choke Superman. Remember that Superman's body has survived the tremendious forces of a nuclear explotions and black holes. Unless you are arguing that Vader can create forces stonger than thoes, the Force Choke wouldn't hurt Superman.

4. Doesn't mean that it would cut through Superman's bio-electric aura.

So, Vader is going to beat Superman with his intellegence and, umm, tactics??? I've shown that none of Vader's powers would hurt Superman. Superman geting touched by any villian that can't move at the speed of light is PIS. If Superman used all of his abilities in every fight, then there would only be a hand full of villians who wouldn't get beat in a fraction of a second.

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged
1. Still nothing to prove it will affect superman
2. He didn't got controlled by Ivy with TP or similar. It was by a different means
3. Natural forces. wtf. Even if it did, so what? Even if it controls the fundamental forces, doesn't mean it's potency is impossibly strong to gauge. Considering it affects superman, it would probably one second kill just about anyone in the SW universe.
4. blowup. When did those blast doors become gigaton in range or > than nuclear bombs?

Don't tell me all your facts come from SD.net?

1. bash[/smilie [smilie]blowup Wow, it just never ends. I fired nearly every bit of proof onto the floor. The puzzle fits perfectly, yet still you choose to say that Superman wouldn't be hurt, because he wouldn't. And I'm getting accussed of being a fanboy? I even go so far as to provide similar events of Supes being trounced, yet no luck. Even all of you're tones of posting are beginning to seem somewhat hostile. My gut says this thread will be locked soon.

2. Jedi Mind trick isn't telepathy. Ivy used kryptonite, so that Superman wouldn't be immune to the poisons of the toxin, to which the minor effects allow mind control. All of that stuff about will power, didn't help out Superman in the end. And by the way, Superman does NOT have the strongest will power in the DCU. His is not even as great as Batman's.

3. Manipulation of natural forces fall under the definition of magic, which has beaten Superman more times than one could shake a stick at. And yet, another person who chooses to grasp for straws.

4. They have always been so. Read up on the starwars books. It's stated after the ROTJ series.

Force Lighting and Choke are useless:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powers_and_abilities_of_Superman#Weaknesses

"During the JLA/Avengers crossover, Superman battled Marvel Comics character Thor. Although the thunder god manages to get solid shots on the Last Son of Krypton with his mystical hammer "Mjolnir", it is evident that Superman's invulnerability still worked to resist the damage from the blows, even going so far as blocking the weapon mid-strike, as well as the lightning from the god's warhammer. It's been established that if the effect of magic is used to simulate or enhance a naturally occurring force (such as the natural elements or concussive energy, for example), Superman's natural defenses reacts to them normally. Effects that specifically alter the established laws of science are another matter entirely such as the natural weapons of supernatural creatures (vampires, werewolves, etc.), spells and arcane energies targeted at the Man of Steel are treated as cast on any mortal."

Please don't mention SD.net, I hear Mike can sense when it's name appears on message boards.