Kun was accepted by the Most powerful of the Most powerful, Marka Ragnos, what does that say?
The Dark Lord of the Ancient Sith, who above all valued power and strength, accepting Kun as a Dark Lord of the Sith
DE Sidious was accepted by them too, as Luke defeated someone who had several times more power to draw off of.
No, Glentract. They're not.
No, this is bullshit. Now you're arguing the Dark Side Sourcebook, which is a handbook for the WotC RPG, saying random statements in it overide TOTJ? Are you nuts? RPG canon is NOT canon at all!
Let's go over this AGAIN:The Holocron's database field is divided into four levels: G-canon, C-canon, S-canon, and N-canon. G, C and S together form an overall continuity. Each ascending level overrides the lower ones. e.g. Boba Fett's back story was radically altered with the release of Attack of the Clones, forcing retconning of older source material to fall in line with the new G-canon back story.
G-canon is absolute canon; the movies and anything coming directly from George Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements coming directly from Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon (see below).
When the matter of changes between movie versions is brought up, the remastered editions are deemed superior to the theatrical ones, since they correct mistakes and improve consistency between the two trilogies. They also express Lucas' original intention and also final word.
C-canon is pretty much everything in the Expanded Universe: Star Wars books, comics, games, cartoons, and more. Games are a special case as generally only the stories are C-canon while things like stats and gameplay may not be. C-canon elements have been known to appear in the movies, thus making them G-canon. (This includes: the name "Coruscant," swoop bikes, Quinlan Vos, Aayla Secura, YT-2400 freighters, Salporin, and Action VI Transports.)S-canon is "secondary" canon; the story itself is considered non-continuity, but the non-contradicting elements are still a canon part of the Star Wars universe. This includes things like the popular online roleplaying game Star Wars Galaxies and certain elements of a few N-canon stories.
N-canon is "non-canon." What-if stories (such as stories published under the Infinities label), some game stats, fanon, and anything else directly contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N-canon is the only level that is not considered canon by Lucasfilm.
Let me point out the definition for C-canon: Games are a special case in which things like states and gameplay may not be canon but stories are. Since roleplaying games and their sourcebooks are staging grounds for fictional, out of continuity individual roleplaying sessions for the amusement of private parties, they should not be considered canon AT ALL. In fact, I would argue that sourcebooks for roleplaying games (obsolete or not) fall under S-canon, and while they may not contradict the EU licensed universe, they do not reflect it either.
Chronologies are nowhere in there. Quod erat demonstrandum.
Kun tools him.
G-canon is absolute canon; the movies and anything coming directly from George Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements coming directly from Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books , and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon (see below).
Seems to me that since the NEGtC has the Lucasbooks stamp on the back, your ideas that they aren't canon are out the window.
Oh please, Glentract. Many elements of DE have been retconned. According to DE, the Sith Empire only stretched back two thousand years BBY. Ergo, they didn't even write in Ragnos as having existed.
Quit making Lightsnake arguments.
The Sith Empire in one form did only extend back to 2000 B.B.Y.
And it says that he was accepted by the Sith. That would include Ragnos even if they hadn't been written about. Would you try and argue that ANH Obi-wan didn't know about Qui-gon as he didn't exist at that time?
Seems to me that since the NEGtC has the Lucasbooks stamp on the back, your ideas that they aren't canon are out the window.
G-canon is absolute canon; the movies and anything coming directly from George Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements coming directly from Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books , and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon (see below).
And so does TOTJ: Dark Lords of the Sith. Was that written by Lucas? Did it come directly from George Lucas?
Guess what? That doesn't mean it was written by Geoge Lucas, nitwit. The Chronology wasn't written by Lucas. Ergo, it cannot create canon. Quod erat demonstrandum.
The Sith Empire in one form did only extend back to 2000 B.B.Y.
And according to DE that's the only Sith empire that ever existed. Ergo, DE is wrong and is retconned by TOTJ.
And it says that he was accepted by the Sith. That would include Ragnos even if they hadn't been written about. Would you try and argue that ANH Obi-wan didn't know about Qui-gon as he didn't exist at that time?
No, that does not include Ragnos, especially since DE was written before his character existed and any idea of the ancient Sith as we knew them existed at all. It. Has. Been. Retconned.
Maybe some spirits accepted him, but nobody you can name. QED.
[QUOTE=6039958]Originally posted by IKC
G-canon is absolute canon; the movies and anything coming directly from George Lucas ( [b]including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements coming directly from Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books , and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon (see below).
And so does TOTJ: Dark Lords of the Sith. Was that written by Lucas? Did it come directly from George Lucas?
Guess what? That doesn't mean it was written by Geoge Lucas, nitwit. The Chronology wasn't written by Lucas. Ergo, it cannot create canon. Quod erat demonstrandum.
And you're calling me a nitwit? You apparently failed to see the part where it says that anything coming from his production department is canon too. Good job.
TOTJ is made by Dark Horse, not a Lucas company. Therefor, it is a lower level of canon then the Essential Guides.
And according to DE that's the only Sith empire that ever existed. Ergo, DE is wrong and is retconned by TOTJ.
What is it that makes you think that TOTJ is a higher level of canon then DE? And you're the man who can scan, lets see where it says that the one and only Sith Empire has only been around for 2000 years.
No, that does not include Ragnos, especially since DE was written before his character existed and any idea of the ancient Sith as we knew them existed at all. It. Has. Been. Retconned.
Maybe some spirits accepted him, but nobody you can name. QED.
Retconned by what? Even if a minor detail is wrong, that doesn't mean the entire series no longer exist.
And we do know it was Ancient Sith who accepted him and we do know that Ragnos was in charge of the Ancient Sith spirit people. Who else would it have been?
And you're calling me a nitwit? You apparently failed to see the part where it says that anything coming from his production department is canon too. Good job.
His production department does not write the reference books either. Good job not knowing what a movie production department is.
And yes, I was.
TOTJ is made by Dark Horse, not a Lucas company. Therefor, it is a lower level of canon then the Essential Guides.
Except the book I cited has the Lucasbooks seal on the back. By your stupid standards, it is G-Canon.
What is it that makes you think that TOTJ is a higher level of canon then DE? And you're the man who can scan, lets see where it says that the one and only Sith Empire has only been around for 2000 years.
Because TOTJ was written after DE and retconned it. That's why.
Look at the many Lightsnake threads for evidence that DE was written under the assumption that the only Sith Empire existed only two thousand years ago.
Retconned by what? Even if a minor detail is wrong, that doesn't mean the entire series no longer exist.
That detail (as well as the hyperbolic statements relating to Sidious/Luke's power), has been retconned by the existence of TOTJ.
And we do know it was Ancient Sith who accepted him and we do know that Ragnos was in charge of the Ancient Sith spirit people. Who else would it have been?
We only know that some ancient Sith accepted him. Your assumption that Ragnos still lords over their spirits is ridiculous, especially since Freedon Nadd's goes against the will of Ragnos by declaring Kun a pretender to the Sith legacy.
Ragnos hasn't done everything that the ancient Sith are responsible for, ergo you cannot prove that Ragnos did shit relating to Sidious.
Originally posted by IKC
His production department does not write the reference books either. Good job not knowing what a movie production department is.And yes, I was.
Where exactly does it say that it's only from the movie department? Lucasbooks is part of his corporation, and therefor G-canon.
Originally posted by IKC
Except the book I cited has the Lucasbooks seal on the back. By your stupid standards, it is G-Canon.
TOTJ has the Dark Horse seal, not the Lucasbooks seal. Dark Horse isn't a Lucas corporation, therefor it is just as canon as any other piece of literature.
Originally posted by IKC
Because TOTJ was written after DE and retconned it. That's why.
Just because something comes after, it is canon above everything before it?
If thats the case, then Splinter of the Minds Eye is a higher level of canon then DE or TOTJ as is came out in comic book form after both TOTJ and DE.
And incase you never noticed, there are some elements from Splinter of the Minds Eye that were used in EP1, such as SotME said that Vader new the proper command codes to shut C-3PO off. No one new why until ep1 where we found out that Anakin built him(just thought that was a nice piece of trivia for you).
Originally posted by IKC
Look at the many Lightsnake threads for evidence that DE was written under the assumption that the only Sith Empire existed only two thousand years ago.
Lightsnake was arguing that the Ancient Sith Empire had only been around for 2000 years before Ragnos. I believe it was Nai who was arguing otherwise(one of the few times Lightsnake was actually right about something).
Originally posted by IKC
That detail (as well as the hyperbolic statements relating to Sidious/Luke's power), has been retconned by the existence of TOTJ.
And TOTJ has been retconned by Splinter of the Minds Eye according to your line of thinking.
How exactly did TOTJ retcon DE? You still haven't shown that.
Originally posted by IKC
We only know that some ancient Sith accepted him. Your assumption that Ragnos still lords over their spirits is ridiculous, especially since Freedon Nadd's goes against the will of Ragnos by declaring Kun a pretender to the Sith legacy.
Wait, does the TOTJ comics go against themself? I seem to remember Exar destroying Nadd's spirit in the comics. How would his spirit have gone against Ragnos later on? Apparently the TOTJ comics retconned themself.
Just because Ragnos was in charge doesn't mean that he wasn't undefied.
Originally posted by IKC
Ragnos hasn't done everything that the ancient Sith are responsible for, ergo you cannot prove that Ragnos did shit relating to Sidious.
We know that Ragnos was the top dog to the Sith. We know that the Ancient Sith were still around in Sidious' time. Who else could it have been?
Where exactly does it say that it's only from the movie department? Lucasbooks is part of his corporation, and therefor G-canon.
Wrong. Lucasbooks is not part of his production department. Even if it were, it wouldn't matter, because they didn't write the ****ing book.
Ergo, the chronology is not and cannot create canon. QED.
TOTJ has the Dark Horse seal, not the Lucasbooks seal. Dark Horse isn't a Lucas corporation, therefor it is just as canon as any other piece of literature.
I'm scanning it the instant I get back to the dorm, now. Better retract this statement before I do.
Just because something comes after, it is canon above everything before it?
If it changes that which was mentioned in a previous work, yes.
And incase you never noticed, there are some elements from Splinter of the Minds Eye that were used in EP1, such as SotME said that Vader new the proper command codes to shut C-3PO off. No one new why until ep1 where we found out that Anakin built him(just thought that was a nice piece of trivia for you).
What a crock of shit. You cannot prove causation, you can only show coincidence.
Lightsnake was arguing that the Ancient Sith Empire had only been around for 2000 years before Ragnos. I believe it was Nai who was arguing otherwise(one of the few times Lightsnake was actually right about something).
Uh, no he wasn't. That empire had been around for far longer, for one, and Lightsnake's precious DE claimed that the Sith Empire only existed 2000 years BBY. Period. QED.
And TOTJ has been retconned by Splinter of the Minds Eye according to your line of thinking.
Wrong, because SotME was retconned by ESB.
Learn what retcon means, by the way. SotME mentions nothing about the subject material of TOTJ.
How exactly did TOTJ retcon DE? You still haven't shown that.
By showing that the Sith extended much further into the past than DE claimed. By showing entities that were themselves far more powerful than DE Sidious and Luke.
Wait, does the TOTJ comics go against themself? I seem to remember Exar destroying Nadd's spirit in the comics. How would his spirit have gone against Ragnos later on? Apparently the TOTJ comics retconned themself.
Good job knowing what you're talking about, Darth "I don't have any primary source material" Glentract.
Nadd declares Exar a pretender as Exar is destroying him. Obviously Ragnos disagreed, since Ragnos later crowned him.
Just because Ragnos was in charge doesn't mean that he wasn't undefied.
Prove that he lords over all the ancient sith spirits. He only ruled the living.
We know that Ragnos was the top dog to the Sith. We know that the Ancient Sith were still around in Sidious' time. Who else could it have been?
Because he was top dog out of all the ancient Sith does not mean he controls their every thought and action. You have to prove the positive, period.
Originally posted by IKC
Wrong. Lucasbooks is not part of his production department. Even if it were, it wouldn't matter, because they didn't write the ****ing book.Ergo, the chronology is not and cannot create canon. QED.
The author of the guide was working for a Lucas production section. Therefor, it is canon. You cannot prove otherwise.
Originally posted by IKC
I'm scanning it the instant I get back to the dorm, now. Better retract this statement before I do.
I'm looking at the TOTJ comic right now. There is no Lucasproduction seal or anything like that on it. There is only a Dark Horse seal.
Originally posted by IKC
If it changes that which was mentioned in a previous work, yes.
And how does this make TOTJ above and beyond DE in the fact that DE Sidious was accepted by the Ancient Sith?
Originally posted by IKC
What a crock of shit. You cannot prove causation, you can only show coincidence.
Gosh, I even said it was just a random detail I found intresting. Take a chill pill.
Originally posted by IKC
Uh, no he wasn't. That empire had been around for far longer, for one, and Lightsnake's precious DE claimed that the Sith Empire only existed 2000 years BBY. Period. QED.
I don't remember that. In anycase, it doesn't make the entire series wrong.
Originally posted by IKC
Wrong, because SotME was retconned by ESB.Learn what retcon means, by the way. SotME mentions nothing about the subject material of TOTJ.
In what way did ESB retcon SotME?
Originally posted by IKC
By showing that the Sith extended much further into the past than DE claimed. By showing entities that were themselves far more powerful than DE Sidious and Luke.
It never showed that they are more powerful then DN Luke. Them showing how far the Sith extend into the past was only retconned in that particular area. The rest of the comics are fine.
Originally posted by IKC
Good job knowing what you're talking about, Darth "I don't have any primary source material" Glentract.Nadd declares Exar a pretender as Exar is destroying him. Obviously Ragnos disagreed, since Ragnos later crowned him.
I don't have any primary source material? Tell, have you read DN and NJO IKC? Oh, and seeing as I have one of the TOTJ comics on the shelf right next to me...
Originally posted by IKC
Prove that he lords over all the ancient sith spirits. He only ruled the living.
He was the one who crowned Exar. Ragnos was the top in life and in death. Prove that anything changed for the Sith in terms of who ruled from life to death.
Originally posted by IKC
Because he was top dog out of all the ancient Sith does not mean he controls their every thought and action. You have to prove the positive, period.
You have to prove that anything changed between Sidious' time and Exar's time before I need to prove that he was still in charge. I mean, if you are comparing Obi-wan in ROTS and you state that he defeated Maul, I'm not going to ask you to prove that he still could do it, as there is no evidence that anything has changed. The same applies here.
Yes Ragnos approves of Kun and correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the spirits of the ancient sith lords, especially Ragnos since it was he who was most likely doing the talking, approve of Sidious by declaring him the greatest of them all? If so, why would you downplay that? And Luke in NJO or DN was referred to as the greatest force user the galaxy had ever seen, so why after all of these facts(and I'm assuming they are facts since i've seen the same thing in various forums), would you say Kun would take Luke, or exaggerate Kun's achievements while downplaying others? It just seems your opinion is biased in regards to Kun, in certain situations like this one. We know that Luke is declared the greatest force user the galaxy has ever seen, now I just need to find the exact quote.
The author of the guide was working for a Lucas production section. Therefor, it is canon. You cannot prove otherwise.
Wrong, because a production department refers to his movie production department. By your logic, all of the Star Wars games must be G-Canon because they came out of Lucasarts.
Bullshit. It has to come directly from Lucas or the notes he made on his films. That is G-Canon. The Chronology is not.
QED
I'm looking at the TOTJ comic right now. There is no Lucasproduction seal or anything like that on it. There is only a Dark Horse seal.
Hope you're ready for some scan pwnage then. Nice knowing you.
And how does this make TOTJ above and beyond DE in the fact that DE Sidious was accepted by the Ancient Sith?
Hey look, the Lightsnake argument!
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Oh, y'know, somewhere between DE declaring Palpatine the strongest Sith ever, him doing far more than the Ancient Sith ever did out of thin air...
Here, some Illustriapwnage for this stupid point:
Originally posted by Illustrious
Read what Borbarad mentions about the passage. If you won't, I can always rephrase it for you.Later versions of canon can easily be retconned. DE acted under the premise that the Sith Order was 2000 years old. In fact, it was later adjusted that the Sith Order was much older, and that the [b]golden age
was actually 5000 years before the events in question.Need I remind you that the Golden Age describes the absolute peak of the power of the Sith (even more evidence for the point).
The point is moot because the circumstances involving the passage is retconned. As Borbarad mentioned, wouldn't you say after watching the first movie that no one could've beaten Neo? Would you say the same after watching Smith kick his ass? [/B]
I don't remember that. In anycase, it doesn't make the entire series wrong.
No, but it makes many elements (hyperbolic descriptions of power, Sidious' confrontation with the sith on Korriban, etc) retconned.
In what way did ESB retcon SotME?
Vader vs. Luke? Luke barely being able to pull at his lightsaber? No kaiburr crystal among Luke's possessions?
It never showed that they are more powerful then DN Luke. Them showing how far the Sith extend into the past was only retconned in that particular area. The rest of the comics are fine.
I meant DE Luke. Reading comprehension.
And many of the elements in DE have been retconned. Read above.
I don't have any primary source material? Tell, have you read DN and NJO IKC? Oh, and seeing as I have one of the TOTJ comics on the shelf right next to me...
Yeah, you have one. Good job. I have all of the ones Exar Kun appears in, you don't. I think I know a bit more of what I'm talking about than you do.
He was the one who crowned Exar. Ragnos was the top in life and in death. Prove that anything changed for the Sith in terms of who ruled from life to death.
Mostly because Ragnos is only shown to lord over the living Sith, and that Sith spirits even in KOTOR pretty much did as they liked.
As well, it appears that special conditions had to be met for Ragnos to get off his spiritual ass and do or say something: Ulic and Kun's amulets meeting, Ludo and Naga's fight, etc.
Ragnos was not invented by DE. Ergo, Sidious was not talking to Ragnos.
You have to prove that anything changed between Sidious' time and Exar's time before I need to prove that he was still in charge. I mean, if you are comparing Obi-wan in ROTS and you state that he defeated Maul, I'm not going to ask you to prove that he still could do it, as there is no evidence that anything has changed. The same applies here.
Actually, you have to prove the positive. I want proof that he lorded over all the millions of dead ancient Sith lords even while he himself was dead.
Asking me to prove the negative will only get you laughed at.
And Luke in NJO or DN was referred to as the greatest force user the galaxy had ever seen, so why after all of these facts(and I'm assuming they are facts since i've seen the same thing in various forums), would you say Kun would take Luke, or exaggerate Kun's achievements while downplaying others?
Because first, you haven't proved up, and second, Luke's shown power doesn't measure up. Indeed, Ragnos' statements to his power are more solid. He is called the most powerful of the most powerful.
Kun can take Luke because he has demonstrated far greater power than Skywalker has. Kun can take Luke because his skill with a lightsaber is superior to Luke's. Kun can take Luke because Kun has studied Force techniques that Luke has never heard of and will never hear of.
One amulet blast and Luke is dead.
We know that Luke is declared the greatest force user the galaxy has ever seen, now I just need to find the exact quote.
No, we don't know that. Happy hunting. *rolls eyes*
Yes, but, Ragnos specifically said, that Kun would bring about the Golden Age of the Sith, whilst when he said Sidious was the greatest, he compared Sidious to the Sith of SIDIOUS'S TIME
However, while Luke has been crowned the greatest force user the world has ever seen, how many people in the galaxy have "seen" or even heard of Kun, remember during the Kotor era, almost all link to the Sith prior to it had been eliminated, as well, it is most likely they are reffereing to the Sith Empire 2000 years ago, in other words Bane's time
However all the Ancient Sith magic, its weaponry, its technology had been lost, remember noone ever replicated anything as powerful as the Sith Amulet, nor the Scepter of Ragnos...
And remember Kun has access to most if not all of it, thereby meaning his knowledge would be deeper, and dying at a young age meant he never realised his true potential, whereas Luke had never died, he has done impress feats for HIS TIME, not for the Sith or Jedi prior to Kotor Era...
I havent seen Luke, using a spell to freeze thousand upon thousands of people, i havent seen Luke kill a monster with one blast, i havent seen Luke suck out the force of an entire RACE.
tdtd make sure, that the quote of Luke being the greatest apply to the time of Kun, Ancient Sith's and hell even Revan's time...You cant believe that anyone in the Galaxy had ever seen the powers of anything beyond the Bane Empire, therefore that comment can only apply to the Era Between Bane's Sith Empire to the time of DN.
Regarding the comment on Sidious, even if Ragnos did state him to be the greatest, it would simply mean, he conquered the Republic and created his Galactic Empire, something none of the Sith managed..i dont doubt he has the greatest feat, but him being the strongest? i dont think so
Originally posted by IKC
Wrong, because a production department refers to his movie production department. By your logic, all of the Star Wars games must be G-Canon because they came out of Lucasarts.Bullshit. It has to come directly from Lucas or the notes he made on his films. That is G-Canon. The Chronology is not.
QED
Hope you're ready for some scan pwnage then. Nice knowing you.
Hey look, the Lightsnake argument!
Here, some Illustriapwnage for this stupid point:
No, but it makes many elements (hyperbolic descriptions of power, Sidious' confrontation with the sith on Korriban, etc) retconned.
Vader vs. Luke? Luke barely being able to pull at his lightsaber? No kaiburr crystal among Luke's possessions?
I meant DE Luke. Reading comprehension.
And many of the elements in DE have been retconned. Read above.
Yeah, you have one. Good job. I have all of the ones Exar Kun appears in, you don't. I think I know a bit more of what I'm talking about than you do.
Mostly because Ragnos is only shown to lord over the living Sith, and that Sith spirits even in KOTOR pretty much did as they liked.
As well, it appears that special conditions had to be met for Ragnos to get off his spiritual ass and do or say something: Ulic and Kun's amulets meeting, Ludo and Naga's fight, etc.
Ragnos was not invented by DE. Ergo, Sidious was not talking to Ragnos.
Actually, you have to prove the positive. I want [B]proof
that he lorded over all the millions of dead ancient Sith lords even while he himself was dead.Asking me to prove the negative will only get you laughed at.
Because first, you haven't proved up, and second, Luke's shown power doesn't measure up. Indeed, Ragnos' statements to his power are more solid. He is called the most powerful of the most powerful.
Kun can take Luke because he has demonstrated far greater power than Skywalker has. Kun can take Luke because his skill with a lightsaber is superior to Luke's. Kun can take Luke because Kun has studied Force techniques that Luke has never heard of and will never hear of.
One amulet blast and Luke is dead.
No, we don't know that. Happy hunting. *rolls eyes* [/B]
IKCPwnt.
You know what why don't we just say that NJO/DN Luke=Kun to make things easier. There is magic Luke hasn't seen that Kun has and there is magic Kun hasn't seen/done that Luke has, IE controlling black holes/emerald lightning. There has been no conclusive evidence on THIS forum that Kun is greater than Luke or vice versa. Need to check the other forums.
