"Your thoughts" OR . . . "A smart person's thread!"

Originally posted by Galan007
😂 leo likes stirring the pot as much as possible.

😖hifty:

Originally posted by operator616
These are questions from a 7 year old thread, but since you bumped it, i guess ill answer them.

They come from the "omega realm", shown in Superman/Batman #42:

http://i.imgur.com/1vfV6cH.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/8lPioE5.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/2XUUSOZ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/aoQAWkN.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/EzlPNCq.jpg

Anti life equation is the same as anti-life entity which was pretty powerful. The equation's/entity's power depends on the particular stories as well (ill get into the details if needed).

As for its ranking (at its peak showings), it's above the Phoenix Force and the Starbrand but below the IG (which has multi-universal feats/statements). HOTU? Nah, it's far below that.

Well, considering that it was able to over-power LT (who's officially only inferior to Protege/Scathan/TOAA), and we know for sure that Starlin didn't intend to have Protege or Scathan anything with the storyline, id say itstands to reason that it was the power of TOAA, Warlock even hinted that by saying that this:

http://i.imgur.com/pOdyJbL.jpg?1

"He whose power you coveted".

Starlin also said in an interview that Thanos had the power of "God", so there's a good amount of implication that it was TOAA's power. Apart from that, we don't know anything.

It's source is Galactus. No discussion there.

I wouldn't say that. But its depiction does vary. There are implications that it is "the one above all". Here's one from Spectre v3 #58

Spectre: "there is The One Above All"

Zeus: "That might be the source"

There are several other examples to this as well.

Here, in that same issue, the Source shows the spectre the nature of God (granting him the power of God):

http://i.imgur.com/kjp6E6v.jpg

Apart from that, there's a letter's page from New Gods v4 #4 which explains that the source is the force that holds the universe (and even more than that) together:

http://i.imgur.com/EpDcx22.jpg?1

Some stories have the source responsible for the creation of the universe (and is created by the universe as well), Jack Kirby's fourth world #1:

http://i.imgur.com/b6kgZ6r.jpg

1998 bio:

http://i.imgur.com/Bygrt1I.jpg?1

Of course, this is just one of the many creation stories present in DC comics.

So yeah, there are several implications that it is the supreme being.

If you ask me though, id say that the source is a power directly below the Presence but above Lucifer/Michael level, imo.

The multiverse came first. Definitely, imo.

Sure, you'll find hyperbolic statements for the Phoenix, but statements don't hold a much weight as do the on panel depictions.

In fact let's apply that logic: Excalibur v1 #34 letter's page says that the PF is one of the forces responsible for creating all realities (in other words: it came first):

http://i.imgur.com/OGcqWEd.jpg?1

Same series (Excalibur v1 #52) has it depict Phoenix's origins, and it is revealed that the Phoenix Force is born from the big bang:

http://i.imgur.com/QED5jJG.jpg

2 handbooks (2005 + 2010) confirming it:

http://i.imgur.com/ZrsLu3P.jpg?1

http://i.imgur.com/JvbYdtf.jpg?1

good stuff. the reason i bumped this was precisely BECAUSE it was so old and there have been many revelations come to light since that time. the thread is a nice place to try and gather some of the newer info which actually addressed and/or directly dealt with some of the questions i was pondering at the time.

the omega realm scan is one i've seen and discussed before. it never really say well with me. the omega effect was always associated with the infinity pit on apokalips. unless the pit is a way into the realm perhaps. but the dialogue--darkseid will become a 'true' immortal also seems...odd. that whole scene just seemed to ignore some important history, so i'm not sure how to take that bit. it's on panel, clearly, but i've always sort of tucked it away and kept it tucked away.....

i'd also disagree with your stance on the IG being multiversal, especially given the way marvel cosmology has been depicted recently, (and the ig in particular) and the relative power of the AE in comparison with it.

likewise, i'd disagree with your stance that the pc's source is galactus. he USES it, no doubt, but it was either imbued to him, or the ability to access it was granted him at his rebirth into our 'universe'. were galactus not present, i don't believe the pc would simply cease to exist iow.

as far as the pf from the big bang--that discussion was explored in this thread i think. the question was, or has been, WHICH big bang? the big bang that started mortal 'galan's' universe? the one that birthed galactus? since we've seen the birth and deaths of countless universe's, each, presumably with a big bang of its own, WHICH big bang birthed it? and was it present at the birth of the very FIRST universe? WAS there a very first universe? lol

anyway, like i said, good stuff. hope it leads to some more discussion and more recent revelations.

Originally posted by Galan007
I'm curious of your opinion on this(I have my own)...

Where mind/soul manipulation is concerned, how do you believe a fully realized ALEquation(under, say, Simonson) compares to the IG?

i think we've discussed this before as well. i thought we were on the same page with the general premise that the AE's control of that particular area would exceed the ig's control in that same area. there was some thread or other where we went over that but i can't recall where. soooooo many threads.... 😂

Yeah, I agree. It makes sense to me but I cannot recall if that was the consensus..?

me neither, but since WE agree, clearly we're right. sneer

anyway, tired of editing that post i made at the top of the page. 😂

i meant to add there--wasn't it mentioned in IN THY NAME that the astral plane was the actual 'source' of the pc?? i can't remember, but that is stuck in my head, though i always thought it was a strange thing....i's always figured that it was eternity (the 'voice' that was speaking to g as he was being reborn in his origin story) who bestowed upon him his power. that was never really said though, or supported i don't think, but for some reason i just always saw the pc as a general 'well of cosmic power' that g was granted the ability to tap. i'd always been hopeful that it would be tied to the PF in a stronger way. meh, maybe i missed something.

@Leonidas: Ill get to your post later.

Originally posted by Galan007
I'm curious of your opinion on this(I have my own)...

Where mind/soul manipulation is concerned, how do you believe a fully realized ALEquation(under, say, Simonson) compares to the IG?

In terms of mind/soul, the ALE (regardless of the writer even) is probably above the IG in that regard, the writers also put heavy emphasis for the ALE in that area, that much is pretty clear, imo. And though it had failed against deities and can be overcome (Even non-gods), the same thing applies to the gems.

My main problem with it, is that in certain depictions ALE is considered to be mind control only, as opposed to other arcs, like DOTNG for instance or Cosmic Odyssey (in which it was an entity unto itself), or even Simonson's Orion who you referenced (he had it used against Ecruos, not in the mind-control aspect, he even had Orion state in a recap of a later issue state that this was a multiversal showing, though in the issue itself it was universal but point still stands) or in the other New Gods titles, etc...

Originally posted by leonidas
i'd also disagree with your stance on the IG being multiversal, especially given the way marvel cosmology has been depicted recently, (and the ig in particular) and the relative power of the AE in comparison with it.

Granted, some people might call this a 'multiversal+' feat:
http://imgur.com/4NKHR7A
http://imgur.com/zF4vpvA
http://imgur.com/LASf6Gq
...But I would respectfully disagree.

Originally posted by operator616
In terms of mind/soul, the ALE (regardless of the writer even) is probably above the IG in that regard, the writers also put heavy emphasis for the ALE in that area, that much is pretty clear, imo. And though it had failed against deities and can be overcome (Even non-gods), the same thing applies to the gems.

My main problem with it, is that in certain depictions ALE is considered to be mind control only, as opposed to other arcs, like DOTNG for instance or Cosmic Odyssey (in which it was an entity unto itself), or even Simonson's Orion who you referenced (he had it used against Ecruos, not in the mind-control aspect, he even had Orion state in a recap of a later issue state that this was a multiversal showing, though in the issue itself it was universal but point still stands) or in the other New Gods titles, etc...

Originally posted by Galan007
He did say the IG was "multi-universal",

ah, my bad. read it as multiversal. i would agree with the former, in a sense at least. depends on what definition of universe you subscribe to i suppose.

Originally posted by Galan007

Granted, some people might call this a 'multiversal+' feat:
http://imgur.com/4NKHR7A
http://imgur.com/zF4vpvA
http://imgur.com/LASf6Gq
...But I would respectfully disagree.

i agree completely that those are not indicative of multiversal power, but i recall a thread where we totally had at it with masters over those scans. good times.....

Originally posted by Galan007

Granted, some people might call this a 'multiversal+' feat:
http://imgur.com/4NKHR7A
http://imgur.com/zF4vpvA
http://imgur.com/LASf6Gq
...But I would respectfully disagree.

I agree in general. Just curious, is all. 🙂

👆 Yeah, that's an impressive feat for the IG, though i agree that it isn't a multiversal + feat since that would require for the Beyonders' realm to be located outside of the mainstream multiverse.....which it isn't.

We all know Kubik along with Kosmos had a trip across creation in Fantastic Four annual #23, and one of the universes they visited was the realm of the Beyonder. The handbook confirms that their tour was across the multiverse (and not beyond it):

http://i.imgur.com/pxn6PVB.jpg?1

Though we know that their realm is far away from Earth. Ill give them that.

Originally posted by leonidas

i'd also disagree with your stance on the IG being multiversal, especially given the way marvel cosmology has been depicted recently, (and the ig in particular) and the relative power of the AE in comparison with it.

Galan understood me correctly. I never said that the IG is fully multiversal, but rather that it can affect multiple realities.

The scans Galan posted aren't from the main IG arc or any of its tie-ins for that matter; it's from the Warlock & the infinity Watch #4, so many people would miss it.

But anyway, it's not debatable whether the IG is more than universal or not, imo. Because it simply is.

Apart from it affecting the Beyond-Realm, Thanos was stated to be supreme in all universeS (plural), stated in Silver Surfer v3 #44 (IG tie in):

http://i.imgur.com/ylCmciU.jpg?1

this further supports the case of IG being more than universal.

IG (which was revealed to be incomplete even) Magus was merging the entire reality-616 with his pocket one (Infinty War #6):

http://i.imgur.com/MCjb5uz.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/nsfA8Bj.jpg

And there's more, i can for instance say that in another tie-in, we have the Warlock/Magus battle fought across countless planes of existence (FF #370, Infinity War tie-in):

http://i.imgur.com/Dlsue7Y.jpg

If you take into account the context of the story; "plane of existence" was used interchangeably with a universe in the arc, here's an example:

http://i.imgur.com/0KJDKXT.jpg?1

this "on a plane of existence with little relation to out own" was in fact, another reality. Also makes sense, considering that each universe would have its own physical plane of existence.

But, i wouldn't use that showing as definitive proof that it's a full-on multiversal showing because it's an ambiguous one

I could get into it more, for example; even in 2009, in Doctor Doom and the masters of evil, the IG was stated to be able to change all reality with a thought........"all reality" doesn't have to mean the multiverse but "realities" were referenced in that mini so i could use that further to support the IG's case...........but i won't (im even putting aside the whole Nemesis affair, since that's ambiguous as well) ill just stick to those 2 showings, which should be clear enough, there's no arguing about that, imo.

Originally posted by leonidas

the omega realm scan is one i've seen and discussed before. it never really say well with me. the omega effect was always associated with the infinity pit on apokalips. unless the pit is a way into the realm perhaps. but the dialogue--darkseid will become a 'true' immortal also seems...odd. that whole scene just seemed to ignore some important history, so i'm not sure how to take that bit. it's on panel, clearly, but i've always sort of tucked it away and kept it tucked away.....

Always been.......? More like, once been. I also don't see how the dialogue seemed odd, that kind of dialogue was also present in the infinity pit affair as well.

But yeah, i agree that infinity pit should be somehow associated to the omega realm, you'll notice the similarities between those stories. Like in the Superman/Batman Torment arc, Desaad actually attempted to seize the power for himself.....and failed, this same thing applies to what was shown in Jack Kirby's fourth world; it was shown/stated that not all can seize the omega power for themselves.

Originally posted by leonidas

likewise, i'd disagree with your stance that the pc's source is galactus. he USES it, no doubt, but it was either imbued to him, or the ability to access it was granted him at his rebirth into our 'universe'. were galactus not present, i don't believe the pc would simply cease to exist iow.

He died in the previous universe and then he was reborn in the current one; that imbued him with the power cosmic, which grew inside of him (Thanos #3):

http://i.imgur.com/Eul3bTM.jpg?1

He died and was just......reborn as Galactus with it.

But anyway, if we're going to speculate; at least in one reality (Earth-9997), in the Earth-X trilogy, we know that the Enigma Force was responsible for the empowerment of Galactus (and in turn, the power cosmic) --- from Universe X #7:

http://i.imgur.com/pxqakhd.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/fswJjiX.jpg

So that's another possible source.

There's also the fact that Galactus' machines connvert the planet matter into cosmic energy, so that

Originally posted by leonidas

as far as the pf from the big bang--that discussion was explored in this thread i think. the question was, or has been, WHICH big bang? the big bang that started mortal 'galan's' universe? the one that birthed galactus? since we've seen the birth and deaths of countless universe's, each, presumably with a big bang of its own, WHICH big bang birthed it? and was it present at the birth of the very FIRST universe? WAS there a very first universe? lol

I didn't read the whole thread, just the 1st page and a little of the 2nd. Though I find it hilarious how that GalacticStorm guy trying to associate HOTU with the Phoenix Force (through the M'Krann Crystal) 😂

as to your questions: Comics aren't perfect, which is why there are contradictory stories. You'll see how.

Originally in The Adventures of X-Men #12, we see the reality prior to 616, and how it was destroyed (according to this story, only 1 single universe was destroyed):

http://i.imgur.com/4bQ7sVg.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/QgDUHEJ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/9a69UrS.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/XlnfhhA.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/QGV4pQQ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Jmk7Rc5.jpg

Later in the handbook (2007) handbook it says that when the M'krann Crystal was destroyed, it destroyed the multiverse:

http://i.imgur.com/DbUAYxi.jpg?1

2010 handbook: put the entire multiverse to an end:

http://i.imgur.com/JvbYdtf.jpg?1

Marvunapp, see comments part, it actually says that the multiverse (if not the entire omniverse) was obliterated in Adventures of X-Men #12:

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/mkraancrystal.htm

The handbook does mention that the Crystal is capable of destroying not only the mainstream multiverse but beyond as well:

http://i.imgur.com/ccaRaII.jpg?1

Why'd you ask? that's because M'krann crystal back then wasn't a multiversal power yet, later it was changed to being multiversal, hence why they made the events in adventures of x-men #12 more than universal going by the secondary evidence (even stated in the Phoenix handbook which i posted earlier).

Make no mistake though, the Galactus story was told several times as a universal but those were reprints (yes, there was several of them) of how it was originally depicted in Thor #162. Of course, back then, it was universal not multiversal, it's perfectly understandable.

It should be also noted that Galactus' 2005 bio also has it as universal, but that was only due to his origins depicted in the Thanos series as a universal. In 2007 it was re-established as being multiversal (and beyond), confirmed by Marvunapp, and later settled in Phoenix's handbook.

But you also gotta realize, there are and always will be contradictory stories.

So, we have an on panel depiction (supported by the bios) which has the multiverse (and all other realities) destroyed and recreated. But wouldn't that mean that there are no individual big bangs? Only 1 big bang which creates all realities (and then when they're destroyed recreates them)? Yes, it would certainly seem that way. We even have another depiction of such an event, in FF #230, we see the big bang create all the other universeS:

http://i.imgur.com/MBjFQqU.jpg

Yet, we have seen that there are individual big bangs, here's one example from Micronauts v2 #14 where Makers witness the big bang of every single universe:

http://i.imgur.com/sQoqZO4.jpg?1

.....or a more recent depiction, in Secret Avengers #18, where beast explains that each universe has a big bang but not all of them are perfect:

http://i.imgur.com/piTbGbG.jpg?1

(there are more examples)

But if there are individual big bangs how come a single big bang created all realities? See the contradictions here?

In short, whether there is one big bang or many: Take your pick. 🙂

What we do know for a fact though: Phoenix Force dies when the universe/multiverse is destroyed, and is reborn from the big bang of the following reality (shown on panel and confirmed by secondary evidence). So it could be assumed that when the 1st big bang started (yes, id assume that the PF existed in the very 1st universe/multiverse since it is an essential force for existence), the PF was born from it, then when this reality died (regardless of whether the whole multiverse and beyond went with it or not) PF died as well and was reborn in the next reality from the big bang.

I could really go on, on how the concept of Big bang itself contradicts other stories but meh....not getting into that, it'll be too long lol.

@ Operator: Where do you rank Logoz? Spectre had it for a time.

^ the Logos (or Logoz) is the word with which all creation began (hunter: the age of magic #20):

http://i.imgur.com/H7iKlEY.jpg?1

......so id say it's pretty high, Lucifer/Michael level perhaps.

But anyway, it may be different from the Logoz which is the connection the Spectre has to the presence. After all, in that same series (hunter: the age of magic), the word (which should be a separate entity, like portrayed in Swamp Thing) is shown to be in a quite a different way. So who knows if it's the same.

Originally posted by leonidas
i agree completely that those are not indicative of multiversal power, but i recall a thread where we totally had at it with masters over those scans. good times.....

Originally posted by operator616
After all, in that same series (hunter: the age of magic), the word (which should be a separate entity, like portrayed in Swamp Thing) is shown to be in a quite a different way. So who knows if it's the same.

Personally, I've always likened The Word to Destiny of the Endless.

They were both created at the dawn of time by The Voice/God:
http://imgur.com/H3MYCpY

http://imgur.com/OsB3xnf
(Their DCE bios confirm the same.)

Which, on that note, is why Spectre referred to The Word as "an older power" than himself:
http://imgur.com/Wk71LlD

And is likely why The Word's authority>Spectre's:
http://imgur.com/4SscQn9
_______

We know The Word, much like Destiny, has access to a book that seemingly knows all-- although he is not bound to it eternally:
http://imgur.com/eXXNFzM
http://imgur.com/YSgZRw0
http://imgur.com/7wGw17X
http://imgur.com/MLOlrch
However, his book's alleged 'all-knowingness' certainly wasn't solidified as well as Destiny's book has been.
_______

We know they will both exist when time ends:
http://imgur.com/EcQ0koz

http://imgur.com/fMr0G98

They've just always come off as opposite sides of the same coin to me. srug

/UselessRant g007-psyduck

^ the thing is, in Age of Magic, the Word was used as if it's the same thing as God. The scan i provided earlier was a cropped one, here's the full scan saying that the word/Logoz is God:

http://i.imgur.com/RDtYpPt.jpg

Apart from the example above, here's another one from the same series:

http://i.imgur.com/uEAuqW3.jpg?1

"in the beggining was the the Word, and The Word was God"

While the Word as shown in Swamp Thing (as your scans show and the encyclopedia confirms) was created by God/the Voice/The Presence and is an aspect of it.

Also, the Word being > The Spectre is understandable, considering that Presence's aspects aren't around the exact same power-level. We know that Lucifer along with the other archangels, are aspects of the Presence:

http://i.imgur.com/i0q06ka.jpg?1

Yet, we also know that there is a power gap between Lucifer/Michael and the Spectre (who's also an aspect of the Presence, obviously).

Yeah, i can see the similarities between Destiny and the Word, you'll also notice that the aspects of the Voice/God are 7 in number.......same number of the endless.

Originally posted by operator616
👆 Yeah, that's an impressive feat for the IG, though i agree that it isn't a multiversal + feat since that would require for the Beyonders' realm to be located outside of the mainstream multiverse.....which it isn't.

We all know Kubik along with Kosmos had a trip across creation in Fantastic Four annual #23, and one of the universes they visited was the realm of the Beyonder. The handbook confirms that their tour was across the multiverse (and not beyond it):

http://i.imgur.com/pxn6PVB.jpg?1

Though we know that their realm is far away from Earth. Ill give them that.

Galan understood me correctly. I never said that the IG is fully multiversal, but rather that it can affect multiple realities.

The scans Galan posted aren't from the main IG arc or any of its tie-ins for that matter; it's from the Warlock & the infinity Watch #4, so many people would miss it.

But anyway, it's not debatable whether the IG is more than universal or not, imo. Because it simply is.

Apart from it affecting the Beyond-Realm, Thanos was stated to be supreme in all universeS (plural), stated in Silver Surfer v3 #44 (IG tie in):

http://i.imgur.com/ylCmciU.jpg?1

this further supports the case of IG being more than universal.

IG (which was revealed to be incomplete even) Magus was merging the entire reality-616 with his pocket one (Infinty War #6):

http://i.imgur.com/MCjb5uz.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/nsfA8Bj.jpg

And there's more, i can for instance say that in another tie-in, we have the Warlock/Magus battle fought across countless planes of existence (FF #370, Infinity War tie-in):

http://i.imgur.com/Dlsue7Y.jpg

If you take into account the context of the story; "plane of existence" was used interchangeably with a universe in the arc, here's an example:

http://i.imgur.com/0KJDKXT.jpg?1

this "on a plane of existence with little relation to out own" was in fact, another reality. Also makes sense, considering that each universe would have its own physical plane of existence.

But, i wouldn't use that showing as definitive proof that it's a full-on multiversal showing because it's an ambiguous one

I could get into it more, for example; even in 2009, in Doctor Doom and the masters of evil, the IG was stated to be able to change all reality with a thought........"all reality" doesn't have to mean the multiverse but "realities" were referenced in that mini so i could use that further to support the IG's case...........but i won't (im even putting aside the whole Nemesis affair, since that's ambiguous as well) ill just stick to those 2 showings, which should be clear enough, there's no arguing about that, imo.

Always been.......? More like, once been. I also don't see how the dialogue seemed odd, that kind of dialogue was also present in the infinity pit affair as well.

But yeah, i agree that infinity pit should be somehow associated to the omega realm, you'll notice the similarities between those stories. Like in the Superman/Batman Torment arc, Desaad actually attempted to seize the power for himself.....and failed, this same thing applies to what was shown in Jack Kirby's fourth world; it was shown/stated that not all can seize the omega power for themselves.

the ig-universal/multiversal definition is one i've had several times in the past. i bumped a thread that (i think) covers much of my own thoughts and some discussion on the nature of the marvel cosmogony. suffice to say i agree with SOME of what you are saying about the nature and extent of the ig's powers.

regarding the omegas--i suppose if we take that superman/batman arc at face value, it would mean the omega realm could be opened from anywhere, by anyone, but i'd always associated the omega force with the pit. and while it's true that not everyone has been successful in claiming it, some have. even ds himself was not meant to be the recipient of the force. anyway, i guess it's easy enough to simply associate the pit with the omega realm. when i first raised these questions (they were meant to stimulate some discussion) i hadn't been aware of that omega realm issue. anyway, i hope it's further explored in the future.

Originally posted by Galan007

Personally, I've always likened The Word to Destiny of the Endless.

👆

Originally posted by leonidas
the ig-universal/multiversal definition is one i've had several times in the past. i bumped a thread that (i think) covers much of my own thoughts and some discussion on the nature of the marvel cosmogony. suffice to say i agree with SOME of what you are saying about the nature and extent of the ig's powers.

Yeah, i remember you linked me to that thread in the surtur vs Shuma thread which i was debating in, a while back.

Still, i realized you didn't understand me correctly what i was saying. You thought that i -- like you -- was arguing that 616 Eternity was a multiverse, but in fact, i didn't.
I was arguing that, whenever we see Eternity on a multiversal scale we should automatically consider it as "Multi-Eternity" which was mentioned that one time in FF annual.

Meaning, in Captain Marvel, since the recap stated that Eternity's essence encompassed the multiverse, that should mean that this is multi-Eternity and not 616 Eternity (which only encompasses a single universe).
Or the Eternity which appeared in Defenders (v1); since in that story, the multiverse was about to be destroyed as a result of Eternity being incomplete, this automatically should mean that this was Multi-Eternity and not 616.
And then again appeared in the 3rd volume, where inside Eternity we see entire universes. Again, we should consider him as "Multi-Eternity" instead of 616, imo.
Same thing applies to the Eternity who appeared in the Dr Strange tie-in to Infinity Crusade, where he was stated to hold universes in his hand. etc..

But whether 616 Eternity represents the multiverse or a universe; that's not even debatable, imo.

I mean, each Eternity has a designation (universe #). And those are single universes. Not to mention that it's impossible for each Eternity to be a separate multiverse (like you were saying) because Eternity(s) and the other cosmic beings --save for LT perhaps -- don't exist outside the mainstream multiverse.

those are from 2005/2006 handbooks:

http://i.imgur.com/kW3ijee.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/cldF2nP.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/5njhq1p.jpg?1

Notice how the first scan specifically references Eternity as being part of a cosmic hierarchy and then goes on to say that the cosmic hierarchy only exists within the mainstream multiverse. Why do you think that Transformers multiverse (which is within the marvel megaverse and i could show you proof) has a creation story of its own, and its own cosmic hierarchy? here's the proof:

Transformers (US) #74:

http://i.imgur.com/CM4WqgM.jpg

Transformers Guide: The Big Bang:

http://i.imgur.com/lGyoB7u.jpg?2

The Transformers perfectly supports my case and it's just 1 example, i could bring up more 'verses outside the mainstream. I posted all those scans before so im just simply reposing them.

So if it's impossible for Eternity to exist outside the multiverse, it stands to reason that the other Eternity counterparts are within the same multiverse, each encompassing a single universe, just like 616 Eternity, no?

I didn't read that whole thread. So i may be missing something regarding your stance; let me know if i am 🙂

Originally posted by operator616
^ the thing is, in Age of Magic, the Word was used as if it's the same thing as God. The scan i provided earlier was a cropped one, here's the full scan saying that the word/Logoz is God:

http://i.imgur.com/RDtYpPt.jpg

Apart from the example above, here's another one from the same series:

http://i.imgur.com/uEAuqW3.jpg?1

"in the beggining was the the Word, and The Word was God"

While the Word as shown in Swamp Thing (as your scans show and the encyclopedia confirms) was [B]created by God/the Voice/The Presence and is an aspect of it.[/B]

^ah, got it. though i disagree with your position (in fact, like you i don't even think it is a debate--616 eternity IS a multiverse unto himself, like any other designated eternity is a multiverse) i can respect it. mrmasters feels the same way you do (though i believe even he no longer subscribes to the singular entity you name multi-eternity) and i've gone round and round with him on it to the point where we both just accept that the other's opinion isn't really likely to change. i use 'mainstream' to mean 616. so the 'mainstream' multiverse is 616. 616 is represented by eternity. there is for example a 616 asgard, as there are infinite other versions of asgard, each with its own designation. and a 616 dark dimension, negative zone, etc..... none of them exist independently of other 'eternities'. there is even an alternate version of the microverse. anyway, if we assume each version of eternity is a multiverse unto itself, it does away with the notion of a 'multi-eternity' which has never been mentioned in any issue outside that single FF and forgoes the need for a reader to....guess what version of eternity we're talking about--especially when we're forced to speculate that it is an entity that has never made a clear and definitive (named by name) appearance in any issue, ever. what's more, thousands of readers would never have any idea this multi-eternity even EXISTS, which would mean, under your definition, that many readers simply can NOT know what eternity is being discussed. makes no sense to me to assume writers would be working with a so obscure a character but never mention him/it by name, but would rather leave it up to us to speculate about who said character is. (i think i go over this in a little more detail in the cosmology thread--mrm has even used a lot of the same material you showed in numerous threads).

so...yeah, we'll just agree to disagree. lol 🙂

^ Cool. I respect your opinion as well.

But anyway, i think we've both said what we need to say regarding this topic, so we'll leave it at that.

Originally posted by Galan007
See, I don't think those scans imply that the Logos literally is God, as God is obviously not a book. After all, it too was technically 'created by' God-- a physical representation of the first word he spoke(confirmed in your scans.) This, as I'm sure you know, is also how The Word was created in the pages of Swamp Thing:
http://imgur.com/ne7Hmie

Alright. Though now that you brought up that scan; it seemed kind of odd how Tefe was able to generate "God-level" voice to get rid of The Word. Because the voice (or the song) which created the Word was also the same one which created the universe as well:

http://i.imgur.com/9rear54.jpg

And considering that Tefe created an "anti-voice"........that would mean Tefe was packing all creation-level destructive power.