"Your thoughts" OR . . . "A smart person's thread!"

as opposed to debating, some of the most fun i've had on this forum has been discussing hypothetical explanaltions for various things. a couple that were particularly memorable: a great discussion regarding the nature and orgin of the phoenix force (thanks to gs and demi and ill!). a great discussion on the nature of the power cosmic and how it was comparable and different from the astro-force (tip of the cap again to ill!)

so, what i'd like to do is to put a couple topics on the table and just have some people express some thoughts on them, and hopefully generate some good discussion. anyway, here goes?

1. what is the nature of darkseid's omega beams and where does it stem from?

2. how does the anti-life equation stack up against the other 'great powers'? ie -- the pf, the IG, the HOTU, starbrand?

3. what is the HOTU and from where did it come?

4. what exactly is the power cosmic and from where does it come -- what is its source?

5. is 'the source' (new gods) the greatest power in all of comics?

6. what came first -- the multiverse or the phoenix force -- think through this one carefully!! 😄 ?

i have other topics in mind, but that should suffice i hope to get the ball rolling. just pick one, throw out some random thoughts. there will be very little actual 'evidence' presented in this thread. most will be (hopefully) educated guesses on the topics, and perhaps someone even WILL be able to present certain pieces of evidence i was unaware of to settle certain questions.

so, smart people, have at it!!!!!!

oh, and if you have your own challenging, mind-bending topic, speak out! i for one may at least have a go at it!

I've never cared about Phoenix or the "Phoenix Force" and every-time 'someone' 😖hifty: writes an essay on it i just skip it

Doesn't the power cosmic come from Galactus.... and it's due to him surviving through the end of the last universe and the birth of the current universe... a ton of primordial energy mixed with him and his ship and he cocooned (like a caterpillar) and was reborn as Galactus

I don't really know much about the Anti Life Equation, the Source or Darkseid

HOTU..... for some reason the power of God was just left floating around in space for anyone with a starship to find? .... feckin' stupid!

These are just some ideas that I can up with so don't hold me to them if some comic source contradicts me.

1. Omega Effect

First lets us recall what the Omega Effect can do:

"The Omega Effect is not only a powerful attack, but can teleport the target anywhere Darkseid chooses, erase the target from existence instantly and can then restore the target if he chooses. The Omega Effect is not limited to traveling in straight lines, able to bend or twist as needed. It can traverse time and different universes, and go through some barriers such as Orion's body."

Now, this abilitiy covers such a wide range of effects that determining its nature is difficult. Personally, I believe that the Omega Effect might not be an "attack" in the normal sence of the word.

If you use the "Everett many worlds" intreptation of quantum mechanics in which all the possibilities described by quantum theory simultaneously occur in a "multiverse" composed of mostly independent parallel universes. Then we may describe Darksieds Omega Effect as the merger of this universe with a universe in which his desired effect is in place but in which no other changes are present.

Thus he does not produce the results he desires but only shifts to a reality that fits them.

For example: Say Darksied wanted to erace Batman from existance; then his Omega Effect would simply merge this universe with one in which Batman doesn't exist. The "beams" that we see could be explained as a physical manifestation of Darksied designating that individual as the target of the merger.

Where does this come from? It could be an inborn extra awareness (think Surfer's Cosmic Awareness) that any being that is advanced enough could manipulate. Or it could be a ability given to Darksied by a higher being in the DC universe.

Originally posted by TheKahn
These are just some ideas that I can up with so don't hold me to them if some comic source contradicts me.

1. Omega Effect

First lets us recall what the Omega Effect can do:

"The Omega Effect is not only a powerful attack, but can teleport the target anywhere Darkseid chooses, erase the target from existence instantly and can then restore the target if he chooses. The Omega Effect is not limited to traveling in straight lines, able to bend or twist as needed. It can traverse time and different universes, and go through some barriers such as Orion's body."

Now, this abilitiy covers such a wide range of effects that determining its nature is difficult. Personally, I believe that the Omega Effect might not be an "attack" in the normal sence of the word.

If you use the "Everett many worlds" intreptation of quantum mechanics in which all the possibilities described by quantum theory simultaneously occur in a "multiverse" composed of mostly independent parallel universes. Then we may describe Darksieds Omega Effect as the merger of this universe with a universe in which his desired effect is in place but in which no other changes are present.

Thus he does not produce the results he desires but only shifts to a reality that fits them.

For example: Say Darksied wanted to erace Batman from existance; then his Omega Effect would simply merge this universe with one in which Batman doesn't exist. The "beams" that we see could be explained as a physical manifestation of Darksied designating that individual as the target of the merger.

Where does this come from? It could be an inborn extra awareness (think Surfer's Cosmic Awareness) that any being that is advanced enough could manipulate. Or it could be a ability given to Darksied by a higher being in the DC universe.

I hadn't considered that before.... hmmmm.... but why could Superman's heat vision block it? and by that theory there would have to be a Doomsday in every possible parallel universe as the beams failed to kill him.... they also failed to kill Galactus... though he has been shown to exist in various alternate universes through the "What If?" series

Originally posted by Scoobless
I hadn't considered that before.... hmmmm.... but why could Superman's heat vision block it? and by that theory there would have to be a Doomsday in every possible parallel universe as the beams failed to kill him.... they also failed to kill Galactus... though he has been shown to exist in various alternate universes through the "What If?" series

Besides the fact that that was Jobbersied?

Well, in the case of Superman I would assume that the Source intervigned and prevented Darkseid from making that specific merger. Darksied may simply be a servant of (and be granted his power from) the Source and thus can only do what is acceptable to the Source (think Galactus/heral relationship). Superman is obviously key to the "Prime" universe, so his death may not be allowed.

So why couldn't he get rid of Doomsday? Same reason as Superman: Look at the role DD played in the Imperix conflict. His contribution may have been critical for the survival of the "Prime" universe so Darksied was not allowed to remove him .

Again Galactus is a critical being to the Universe's survival so Darksied is limited as to what he can do to him.

cool theory, kahn. i brought up the o-beams because i'd read somewhere that someone thought they were linked to the source. they're not -- or at least if they are, there is a degree of separation (as opposed to the astro-force which is the source made manifest). the o-beams were actually gained by seid when he entered the infinity pit on apokalips. i've always wondered if aybe they weren't a type of . . . odinpower. sounds funny, but there have been many ties to asgard and the 'old gods' that preceded seid and the new gods.

as far as the power cosmic scoob, i've wondered about its connection to the pf. since the pf is the force that created the stars and gave life to eternity and even saved galactus, apparently, isn't the power cosmic then just a manifestation of the pf?

I think that the PF, IG, starbrand, HOTU, and every other "power of creation" object are only different aspects of the same Creation Force (for lack of a better term). Just as you can physically experience an orange in different ways (taste, smell, sight) so too can individuals extablish connections in different ways to the CF.

In Jean Grey's case it was her mutation that allowed the connection, while the Infinitity Gauntlet is simply different path to the same power.

Why do they take different forms? And why do they sometimes show different abilities? I think that they are limited by the pre-concieved notions of thoes who wield them. If you think that the IG will give you the ability to only stop time, then that is the only power you will get. However, if you expect it to grant you god-hood then it will do that.

The different physical manifestations are the result of different beings seeing the same force in different ways. Jean Grey saw the birth/death aspect of it and intrepretated it along the lines of the mythical phoenix. So that is the form it took and the way others see it. The same goes for the other objects.

Galen/Galactus saw the scientific aspects of this Creation Force and thus his "Power Cosmic" follows along thoes lines. The beings who have access to it seem to impose their own limits on it wither they know it or not

Bah. Stupid theories.

Spider-sense wins!

*walks away in shame, realizing this is all over his head*

see what happens when you invite the 'smart' people in . . . ❌

Originally posted by TheKahn
Galen/Galactus saw the scientific aspects of this Creation Force and thus his "Power Cosmic" follows along thoes lines. The beings who have access to it seem to impose their own limits on it wither they know it or not

possibly..... but then what's up with his hunger? I've never known Surfer or Firelord to require food

Originally posted by TheKahn
These are just some ideas that I can up with so don't hold me to them if some comic source contradicts me.

1. Omega Effect

First lets us recall what the Omega Effect can do:

"The Omega Effect is not only a powerful attack, but can teleport the target anywhere Darkseid chooses, erase the target from existence instantly and can then restore the target if he chooses. The Omega Effect is not limited to traveling in straight lines, able to bend or twist as needed. It can traverse time and different universes, and go through some barriers such as Orion's body."

Now, this abilitiy covers such a wide range of effects that determining its nature is difficult. Personally, I believe that the Omega Effect might not be an "attack" in the normal sence of the word.

If you use the "Everett many worlds" intreptation of quantum mechanics in which all the possibilities described by quantum theory simultaneously occur in a "multiverse" composed of mostly independent parallel universes. Then we may describe Darksieds Omega Effect as the merger of this universe with a universe in which his desired effect is in place but in which no other changes are present.

Thus he does not produce the results he desires but only shifts to a reality that fits them.

For example: Say Darksied wanted to erace Batman from existance; then his Omega Effect would simply merge this universe with one in which Batman doesn't exist. The "beams" that we see could be explained as a physical manifestation of Darksied designating that individual as the target of the merger.

Where does this come from? It could be an inborn extra awareness (think Surfer's Cosmic Awareness) that any being that is advanced enough could manipulate. Or it could be a ability given to Darksied by a higher being in the DC universe.

brilliant 👆 ...i am truly impressed

Originally posted by Scoobless
possibly..... but then what's up with his hunger? I've never known Surfer or Firelord to require food

Damnit. OK let me think....

In the universe there is a finite amount of matter and energy. Matter can be turned into energy and vise vera, but no "new" matter or energy can be created.

This scientific principle files into the face of the Creation Force that quite literally made something out of nothing. Since Galen/Galactus approaches the CF from a scientific point of view, the fact that this source of energy is unlimited might be something that he cannot fundamentally understand (like magic, which he said he doesn't like)

So in order to replace the energy he uses, he must "feed" from "known" sources of energy in the universe. This is a self imposed limitation as he cannot grasp the concept of the unlimited source of energy that the CF could provide.

The Surfer and other Heralds on the other hand where granted their power from an god-like being, Galactus, who seemingly could do anything. Given these circumstances, they could believe that their power was unlimited and thus they do not "need" to feed like Galactus.
Its kind of like how children can accept the existance of magic while adults cannot.

thing is, in marvel, the creation force you're talking about is the phoenix force. which is why i said earlier that to me it seems logical that the power cosmic -- which ss gathers by absorbing the ambient energy given off by stars -- is merely a facet of the phoenix force. galactus has greater control of this aspect than ss does but at the saem time, it seems he actually has LESS control. clearly ss doesn't need to replenish his power, yet g does. that's always puzzled me. is there a reason g is NOT meant to be at full power? why DOES he hunger? i thought that was hypothesized in a book somewhere . . .?

maybe he just smokes cosmic weed and permanently has the munchies

Originally posted by leonidas
thing is, in marvel, the creation force you're talking about is the phoenix force. which is why i said earlier that to me it seems logical that the power cosmic -- which ss gathers by absorbing the ambient energy given off by stars -- is merely a facet of the phoenix force. galactus has greater control of this aspect than ss does but at the saem time, it seems he actually has LESS control. clearly ss doesn't need to replenish his power, yet g does. that's always puzzled me. is there a reason g is NOT meant to be at full power? why DOES he hunger? i thought that was hypothesized in a book somewhere . . .?

Yeah, but not only is the Creation Force the same thing as the phoenix force, but also the IG, the Starbrand, the Power Cosmic ect. They are just different aspects it as they are shaped by the people who wield them and come into contact with them.

I think that the way individuals come to desplay control of it depends on their own understanding of the universe. Galactus has to spend a lot of energy to keep Abraxes at bay. He hungers because part of him is still humaniod and believes that if you spend energy doing something, then you have to consume energy to replace it. He cannot fully comprehend all of the aspects of the CF that would sustain him and so he turns scientific sources of energy in the physical universe.

Galactus keeps himself from being at full power because he subconsciencely limits himself.

Surfer is a little different. While he was also a humanoid and feels the physcological need to eat to survive, he was also granted his power by a "higher" being. So while part of him knows that he doesn't need to eat in order to live (part of being granted super powers comes with an ability to disregard normal limitations) he too subconsciencely forces himself to feed.

Originally posted by TheKahn
Yeah, but not only is the Creation Force the same thing as the phoenix force, but also the IG, the Starbrand, the Power Cosmic ect. They are just different aspects it as they are shaped by the people who wield them and come into contact with them.

Not so. ❌

The energies of creation, the Big Bang are literally the Phoenix Force. Each universes Phoenix Force is the sum and substance of all that exists in a universe, the life energy that brings a reality about. Objects like the IG tap into a universes power, thats something very different.

On that note the Power primordial is stated in old bios to be energies direct from the Big Bang, which would in fact connect it to the Phoenix Force also.

I wouldnt be surprised if the StarBrand was the Phoenix Force under a different guise. Wielders of it just like avatars of the Phoenix Force have also been referred to as "StarChilde" The Phoenix form as we know it only came about via Feron, before that it was just literally the power of creation that touched and lived within all.

I could be wrong but the power cosmic is an ability, not a power source in itself by my understanding. An ability to tap into and manipulate ambient cosmic energies. The power cosmic is just a name given to the ability by Galactus an ability he himself got as stated after he was transformed by the energies of creation, the Phoenix Force.

As for the HOTU, ive always wondered if this power was connected to the M'kraan crystal, which also has been referred to as HOTU. Who knows? 😕

I believe Galactus' hunger is something intentionally caused within him by the powers that created him so that he would be a tool to serve evolution. Weeding out the weaker lifeforms by consuming those planets which cannot stand against his might, whilst being driven away from planets with more capable races (Asgard and Earth)

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I believe Galactus' hunger is something intentionally caused within him by the powers that created him so that he would be a tool to serve evolution. Weeding out the weaker lifeforms by consuming those planets which cannot stand against his might, whilst being driven away from planets with more capable races (Asgard and Earth)

The creation of a Galactus like being is something that X-men Forever suggested happens every creation cycle so its certainly a possibility.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I believe Galactus' hunger is something intentionally caused within him by the powers that created him so that he would be a tool to serve evolution. Weeding out the weaker lifeforms by consuming those planets which cannot stand against his might, whilst being driven away from planets with more capable races (Asgard and Earth)

I could see that. The only thing is I thought that that was what the Celestials were for. And Galactus' method seems too impercise. I mean he has almost destroyed the earth several times and it has been deemed worthy by the Celestials to survive.

Originally posted by TheKahn
I could see that. The only thing is I thought that that was what the Celestials were for. And Galactus' method seems too impercise. I mean he has almost destroyed the earth several times and it has been deemed worthy by the Celestials to survive.

The Celestials as stated in X-men Forever are tools to seed genetic potential across the universe, with the end result being a race which will evolve into beings which will replace the fundamental forces and so keep the whole creation cycle going.

While its true that the Celestials do come back every few thousands years to judge their work, who is to say Galactus' work isnt an additional quality measure? Phoenix itself manifests within avatars to help evolution along as well, so they all could be working towards one common goal.

His repeated attempts could be further tests down the line to ensure humanity really is the race thats got the future task of bringing about the end. It doesnt have to stopat one test and if they were destroyed then he'd know they really werent up for the task.

Who knows.