Spiderman vs Starfire

Kahn addressed many of my points with good one's of his own. Let's take this a piece at a time.

DigiMark007 brings up a good point with the Firelord vs Spiderman fight. Was that PIS or could Spidey really take down a character of that level? IMO, no he could not. The reason isn't that Spiderman couldn't take advantage of a potential weakness (the stick), it is that given Firelord's power set Spidey should never have gotten close to him.

The "temperature rise" trick is a good argument. But he's not fighting FL in this fight. He's fighting Starfire....who can't do anything like that anyway. Saying that beating Firelord was PIS is probably true, but it doesn't negate many of the things he accomplished in that fight....namely, inflicting tons of one-sided damage while dodging any attacks Firelord hurled at him (including building-crumbling fire blasts). Starfire doesn't have a One-Hit Kill attack for Spidey....or else I wouldn't be arguing for him.

Now with Starfire I just think Spidey is out classed. First off, lifting an aircraft carrier is no small feat. It is comparable to Namor lifing a tanker and Ult. Colossus lifting that submarine. This puts her very high in the strength rankings in Marvel or DC (I would assume that would easily put her into the hundred ton range)

None of which helps her hit him. Keep in mind, he's repeatedly dodged Hulk effortlessly, who's much stronger than SF. I'm not arguing that she isn't much stronger (because she is), but her durability isn't so high that Spidey can't hurt her. A class 15 smacking you around and smasheing you with really hard objects will get to almost anyone eventually.

Now as to Spidey's durability, I realize that Marvel isn't too good at realisticly showing the relationship between durability and strenght. For example Hulk hitting Spidey (who only has perhaps slightly inhanced human durability) and only breaking a few ribs. 😬

He's as strong as roughly 100 strong human beings (give or take) and yet you only want to put him at "enhanced human durability"?? He's well beyond that. Enhanced human durability would get his arms ripped out every time he tries to swing from buildings.

We can look at the Hulk/Wolverine fight: when the hulk his Wolverine in the face the force should be enough to turn all of the tissue between his fist and Wolverine's skull to mush. But that doesn't happen. A person in a high strength class should have no trouble punching through a human body with little effort.

Again, we're talking about Spidey, not Logan (who IS around enhanced human durability + the skeleton and healing). This argument doesn't really mean much....it makes a point, but not one that readily applies to Spidey.

In this fight, Starfire could simply wait for Spidey to get close and then launch a starbolt at the ground beneath her for a quick win. Or going hand to hand she still stands a good chance. All she has to do is get a single hand on Spidey and she can criple him easily. However, I'm not sure Spidey can really take her down. His new upgrades would help but I'm not sure it would be enough.

As I stated, it's a question of whether or not she could get those 4-5 hits in before he pummels her. Spidey has taken blows from people in her power class, and also completely dodged people as fast as her. She's far from the fastest and most skilled he's ever fought.

His speed would help but she has had combat training from WW and has had expericence with individual with much greater speed than Spiderman in DC.

Spider-Man has as many appearences as anyone....against very skilled foes, at that. Training doesn't help against someone who can dodge everything you do....including energy blasts (Spidey has dodged numerous blasts at the same time many time before). And I've never seen her do anything tht suggests she has faster fighting reflexes than your average brawler.

I have doubts that Spiderman can aviod everyone of her attacks and still manage to inflict enough one-sided damage to beat her.

And your entitled to those doubts. I said earlier that it could easily go either way, and don't believe Spidey would win every time. But it's possible.

-DM

Starfire is class 100? Dumb. Just dumb. If anyone agrees with me on that, hopefully you'll understand why I don't read DC. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

Can Spider-Man beat Firelord? Well, he sure as hell did TWICE! What is it with people overestimating DC and underestimating Marvel! Someone yesterday told me that Superman is smarter than Iron Man. Arrrrgh!

Spidey wins.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Kahn addressed many of my points with good one's of his own. Let's take this a piece at a time.

The "temperature rise" trick is a good argument. But he's not fighting FL in this fight. He's fighting Starfire....who can't do anything like that anyway. Saying that beating Firelord was PIS is probably true, but it doesn't negate many of the things he accomplished in that fight....namely, inflicting tons of one-sided damage while dodging any attacks Firelord hurled at him (including building-crumbling fire blasts). Starfire doesn't have a One-Hit Kill attack for Spidey....or else I wouldn't be arguing for him.-DM

I was not suggesting that Starfire could use that temperature trick, just stating why I think FL vs SP is a case of PIS to me. In that fight Spidey had to avoid EVERY attack from Firelord or else he would be dead. Which is either a good show of Spidey's agility or a forced consequence of him fighting a herald level character and living through it.

Originally posted by DigiMark007

None of which helps her hit him. Keep in mind, he's repeatedly dodged Hulk effortlessly, who's much stronger than SF. I'm not arguing that she isn't much stronger (because she is), but her durability isn't so high that Spidey can't hurt her. A class 15 smacking you around and smasheing you with really hard objects will get to almost anyone eventually.-DM

The problem is that Spidey does get hit in fights. He does have good agility (the level of which does vairy with writers) but he isn't untouchable. The fight with the Hulk is a similar situation to Firelord, Spidey actually says "I can't let the Hulk get one hit or it'll kill me" or something like that. Writers have Spidey avoid every punch when the opponent has the strength to instantly kill him and let him get hit when the opponent is weaker. Her durability I'm not sure about and hopefully someone knows for sure. She can however survive in space without aid so that has to count for something.

Originally posted by DigiMark007

He's as strong as roughly 100 strong human beings (give or take) and yet you only want to put him at "enhanced human durability"?? He's well beyond that. Enhanced human durability would get his arms ripped out every time he tries to swing from buildings.-DM

Strength and druability do not nessarly go together (see the mutant sunspot). Now Spiderman does have some added durability but it isn't that much compared to even other "street-level" characters like Luke Cage and the extent of it isn't that clear.

Originally posted by DigiMark007

Again, we're talking about Spidey, not Logan (who IS around enhanced human durability + the skeleton and healing). This argument doesn't really mean much....it makes a point, but not one that readily applies to Spidey.-DM

My point was that a punch from a character like the Hulk is often not portrayed accuratly. He can punch through solid steel but can only give Pete broken ribs and Wolverine's skin isn't even damaged by it.

Originally posted by DigiMark007

As I stated, it's a question of whether or not she could get those 4-5 hits in before he pummels her. Spidey has taken blows from people in her power class, and also completely dodged people as fast as her. She's far from the fastest and most skilled he's ever fought.-DM

Imo, Spidey taking what I would say were Namor level punches is a bit of a streach. His body isn't that durable (he still can be shot and have his bones broken). And while Spiderman can be written to a point where he is impossible to hit, slower characters have done it before.

Originally posted by DigiMark007

Spider-Man has as many appearences as anyone....against very skilled foes, at that. Training doesn't help against someone who can dodge everything you do....including energy blasts (Spidey has dodged numerous blasts at the same time many time before). And I've never seen her do anything tht suggests she has faster fighting reflexes than your average brawler.-DM

Again his ability to dodge EVERYTHING is a bit suspect to me in this fight. Also like in the fight with the Hulk, the force from even a near hit of one of her explotions could be enough to stun Spidey. Add to that the fact that she can fly (at faster than light speed no less) and I have a hard time seeing Spidey even getting that close.

Originally posted by DigiMark007

And your entitled to those doubts. I said earlier that it could easily go either way, and don't believe Spidey would win every time. But it's possible.-DM

I don't want to come off as bashing Spidey (his was the first comic I ever read and he does kick a lot of ass) and I can see him wining a few rounds. But all she has to do is fly above the buildings and she is effectivly out his his range while he remains in hers.

Besides Spidey would be distracted during the fight. He has a thing for redheadsdiva

drool

All Firelord would have to do is raise the temperature around his body (say a radius of 3 or 4 feet) up to a few thousand degrees Fahrenheit. Spiderman then could not even get close enought to attack him without getting severly burned.

Its this lack of using a basic power (raising temperature) by Firelord that discredits the fight in my mind.

He is bound to his honor. He had said that he could have destroyed Spidey and the city in an instant, but wanted to win in single combat. I think the ability to raise temperature takes into account here. So that leaves Firelord with strength, speed, projectiles, and durability. Which was what he was defeated in, despite being a former herald of galactucus.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
He is bound to his honor. He had said that he could have destroyed Spidey and the city in an instant, but wanted to win in single combat. I think the ability to raise temperature takes into account here. So that leaves Firelord with strength, speed, projectiles, and durability. Which was what he was defeated in, despite being a former herald of galactucus.

That would still be single combat and wouldn't destroy the city. Just heat the air immedately around him and Spidey wouldn't be able to get near him. It would be like a passive armor and not nearly as destructive as projectiles.

Again that is why to me its classic PIS. He "limits" himself so Spidey has a chance to win. Remember that Firelord controls energies that encompass the entire electromagnetic spectrum possessed by a star: heat, light, gravity, radio waves, and charged particles and yet he couldn't beat Spiderman 🤨

1000 times stronger than Spidey? Definately 10 or more, if we are considering him in water, but certainly not 100-1000 out of water. Just check out that fight in DigiMark007's respect thread. The Submariner hadn't been out of water long, and Spiderman still put up a good fight against him. It certainly didn't look like the Submariner was packing blows 100x better than Spidey's.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
1000 times stronger than Spidey? Definately 10 or more, if we are considering him in water, but certainly not 100-1000 out of water. Just check out that fight in DigiMark007's respect thread. The Submariner hadn't been out of water long, and Spiderman still put up a good fight against him. It certainly didn't look like the Submariner was packing blows 100x better than Spidey's.

Namor lifts an 50 ton tank with one hand and throws it hard enough to hit a flying Boeing 747 that Iron Man is on. Namor is a beast in or out of water. He is way more than 10x stronger than Pete ✅

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
1000 times stronger than Spidey? Definately 10 or more, if we are considering him in water, but certainly not 100-1000 out of water. Just check out that fight in DigiMark007's respect thread. The Submariner hadn't been out of water long, and Spiderman still put up a good fight against him. It certainly didn't look like the Submariner was packing blows 100x better than Spidey's.

Majorly pissed off Hulk has hit Spider-Man who survived no bad injuries. Hulk is probably hundreds of thousands times stronger then Spider-Man.

It's all for the sake of the fight. It wouldn't be nice if Spider-Man's head would explode when he fights people like Namore and Hulk, would it?

Namor's strength does not diminish on land immediately. And while on land, he is at least few hundred times stronger then Spider-Man.

Yeah, I agreed to him being 10 or more times stronger than Peter. I just don't agree with him being 100 or 1000 times stronger.

Originally posted by Marcus4600
Starfire is class 100? Dumb. Just dumb. If anyone agrees with me on that, hopefully you'll understand why I don't read DC. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

Because DC takes more of a Greek Mythology/Gods among men approach whereas Marvel takes a slightly more down-to-earth approach and shows them as humans with powers as opposed to powers acting human?

Starfire is most certainly Class 100. Stop watching the cartoon.

Spider-Man STRONGER than Namor? Please. Morlun isn't Class 50 either. He's at most as strong as Luke Cage.

Spidey vs. Firelord has good, plausible feats, but it DOES come with a LOT of CIS, and a little PIS as well. It's definitely not good to say that "Spidey beat Firelord, therefore he beats Starfire", but dodging fire blasts is still dodging fire blasts. It's a valid feat, any way you look at it.

That said, Starfire is a beast. She definitely is class 100, as she brawled with WW for a little bit. Her durability is also pretty high. I'm not going to say she wins 10/10 with no problems, but she should get most, if not every fight fairly solidly. Spiderman is simply outclassed, and without CIS, it WOULD be a curbstomp. Disregarding a wide angled nova style attack, (saying Spidey defeated HT isn't valid either, as Johnny hasn't USED it on him) Starfire's much too good a fighter to get beat by simple dodging ability. Spiderman will get some hits if he avoids her, but even human martial artists have given him a lot of trouble. Starfire is a very good in h2h, and if she gets a finger on Spidey, he's done. And she can take plenty of what he can bring, so I see her taking advantage of his relatively low strength, allowing him a free shot, and grabbing or blowing off his arm, while taking the hit. Quite honestly, the combination of physical advantages is stacked way too heavily against him for me to give Parker much of a chance. It would be an interesting fight, but ultimately, Starfire should win 9/10 or so, factoring in CIS.

Also keep in mind that most of the time Spidey gets hit anymore, it's because of some plot device or it's because he's distracted somehow (i.e. "Had to save that women from falling...couldn't jump out of the way of Scorpion's stinger in time"😉 Stuff like that. I can't remember the last time he legitimately got hit by someone that didn't involve some outside influence. The "fanboy Spidey" that can't get hit ever is a bit too far...but the truth is closer to it than lots of people think.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
Yeah, I agreed to him being 10 or more times stronger than Peter. I just don't agree with him being 100 or 1000 times stronger.

He's like Class 200,000 on water.

Him being 100 times stronger would be about Class 1500, 1000 times would be about Class 15,000.

I don't see him weakening THAT much on land. Especially if fresh from water.

Originally posted by MuffinmanMike
Because DC takes more of a Greek Mythology/Gods among men approach whereas Marvel takes a slightly more down-to-earth approach and shows them as humans with powers as opposed to powers acting human?

Yup. I prefer the humanity part. It adds much more depth to a character in my opinion.

I was just going to sit out, but this is beginning to annoy me. You can mock me as much as you want, or call me a fanboy. You can even compare me to Wolverine1888. I don't care.

You people always make it a big deal, when Spiderman beats a character you don't think he should have beaten. I can understand, if it's out of canon, but in this case, it isn't. Spiderman defeated fire lord, and whether you like it or not, the company accepted it, and so did the authors. So what you say about PIS doesn't make any difference. It happened.

Most of you have completely misunderstood the purpose of that storyline, or any storyline more to the point. The point of the story was not show off how great Spiderman was(no, this wasn't a DC storyline). The point was to show that powers, rather feats, mean nothing. That it's all about will.

In the words of Goku from DragonballZ- "Even a loser can surpass an elite"

And in this case, Spiderman was the loser. Sure, Firelord can level a city, can raise his temperature to levels supernatural, can move faster than a speeding bullet, can yadda yadda yadda. I don't care if he can bench press 50x the national debt. None of that can compare to an underdog's determination.

Just take a look at the Revolutionary War for example. America was completely outclassed, in terms of military power, experience, and sheer numbers, you name it. They had all of the disadvantages in the world. But who won in the end? America. So what's so hard to comprehend about Spiderman defeating fire lord?

This point about PIS is irrelevant. A good example of PIS would be Superman accidentally sneezing out a whole universe on one event, yet on countless(and I do mean countless) other times, having trouble stopping a free falling airplane. We don't ever see anyone complaining about that. We hardly even see anyone having a problem with Batman taking down Superman or Amazo.

If it's a comparison of powers, then Sure, Starfire would win 10/10. But this thread is not titled Spiderman's powers vs Starfire's powers, now is it? No. It's Spiderman vs Starfire. Would Parker win?
I don't know. But one things for sure: Win or lose, he would give her a fight that she would remember for the rest of her life. Guarenteed.

Engage.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
You people always make it a big deal, when Spiderman beats a character you don't think he should have beaten. I can understand, if it's out of canon, but in this case, it isn't. Spiderman defeated fire lord, and whether you like it or not, the company accepted it, and so did the authors. So what you say about PIS doesn't make any difference. It happened.

That's what PIS is... Stuff that HAPPENED that shouldn't have. Batman has punched out Solomon Grundy twice. 😄

Most of you have completely misunderstood the purpose of that storyline, or any storyline more to the point. The point of the story was not show off how great Spiderman was(no, this wasn't a DC storyline). The point was to show that powers, rather feats, mean nothing. That it's all about will.

Last I checked, the purpose of storylines is to tell a story, actually. And when talking about the adventures of superheroes... Powers mean a hell of a lot. And even if the sole purpose of most comics isn't to create feats for a character, discussion of feats IS what this forum is for.

In the words of Goku from DragonballZ- "Even a loser can surpass an elite"

Depends on the degree of the loser and the elite. As I recall, Goku typically defeats opponents by making himself stronger than them and blasting them into oblivion. So I don't know how much water this quote holds.

And in this case, Spiderman was the loser. Sure, Firelord can level a city, can raise his temperature to levels supernatural, can move faster than a speeding bullet, can yadda yadda yadda. I don't care if he can bench press 50x the national debt. None of that can compare to an underdog's determination.

Exactly. Spiderman's victory means relatively little because Firelord did NONE of that, when it's clearly within his power to do so. The mystical "power of heart" isn't all that it's cracked up to be. If it was, Thing would be friggin TOAA.

Just take a look at the Revolutionary War for example. America was completely outclassed, in terms of military power, experience, and sheer numbers, you name it. They had all of the disadvantages in the world. But who won in the end? America. So what's so hard to comprehend about Spiderman defeating fire lord?

Actually, America "won" the Revolutionary War because England was on the verge of war in Europe, and didn't want to commit the troops necessary to achieve victory. Guess what happened in the War of 1812, when England decided to prove that they COULD have killed us all? Correct, they kicked our asses. They really didn't want us back as colonies, so they contented themselves with burning down Washington and leaving, but we DID lose.

This point about PIS is irrelevant. A good example of PIS would be Superman accidentally sneezing out a whole universe on one event, yet on countless(and I do mean countless) other times, having trouble stopping a free falling airplane. We don't ever see anyone complaining about that. We hardly even see anyone having a problem with Batman taking down Superman or Amazo.

That was Pre-Crisis Superman... the same one that chased down specific rays of light across the universe and captured them on film. Then turned around and got spanked by a monkey. And people DO have a problem with Batman beating Supes. It's NEVER used in Batman debates as seriosu evidence, because batman talks through most of one of their fights about how the entire thing is heavy CIS.

If it's a comparison of powers, then Sure, Starfire would win 10/10.

Yup.

But this thread is not titled Spiderman's powers vs Starfire's powers, now is it? No. It's Spiderman vs Starfire. Would Parker win?
I don't know. But one things for sure: Win or lose, he would give her a fight that she would remember for the rest of her life. Guarenteed.

I dunno, 3 second fights aren't typically that memorable... 🙄

The thing is, this essentially IS Starfire's powers vs. Spiderman's powers. What else is there? His charming personality? Plot devices? Crappy writing? The "it factor"? HEART!? Have you read the forum rules? If not, DO IT NOW! If so, DO IT AGAIN. (and read for a general comprehension this time)

Originally posted by Dizzle
That's what PIS is... Stuff that HAPPENED that shouldn't have. Batman has punched out Solomon Grundy twice. 😄

Last I checked, the purpose of storylines is to tell a story, actually. And when talking about the adventures of superheroes... Powers mean a hell of a lot. And even if the sole purpose of most comics isn't to create feats for a character, discussion of feats IS what this forum is for.

Depends on the degree of the loser and the elite. As I recall, Goku typically defeats opponents by making himself stronger than them and blasting them into oblivion. So I don't know how much water this quote holds.

Exactly. Spiderman's victory means relatively little because Firelord did NONE of that, when it's clearly within his power to do so. The mystical "power of heart" isn't all that it's cracked up to be. If it was, Thing would be friggin TOAA.

Actually, America "won" the Revolutionary War because England was on the verge of war in Europe, and didn't want to commit the troops necessary to achieve victory. Guess what happened in the War of 1812, when England decided to prove that they COULD have killed us all? Correct, they kicked our asses. They really didn't want us back as colonies, so they contented themselves with burning down Washington and leaving, but we DID lose.

That was Pre-Crisis Superman... the same one that chased down specific rays of light across the universe and captured them on film. Then turned around and got spanked by a monkey. And people DO have a problem with Batman beating Supes. It's NEVER used in Batman debates as seriosu evidence, because batman talks through most of one of their fights about how the entire thing is heavy CIS.

Yup.

I dunno, 3 second fights aren't typically that memorable... 🙄

The thing is, this essentially IS Starfire's powers vs. Spiderman's powers. What else is there? His charming personality? Plot devices? Crappy writing? The "it factor"? HEART!? Have you read the forum rules? If not, [b]DO IT NOW! If so, DO IT AGAIN. (and read for a general comprehension this time) [/B]

I couldn't have said it better myself Dizzle. 😄

Originally posted by TheKahn
I couldn't have said it better myself Dizzle. 😄

Always a fan of that, thanks. 😄

That's what PIS is... Stuff that HAPPENED that shouldn't have. Batman has punched out Solomon Grundy twice.

I respect your opinion, but............ it's not your comic book; you didn't create it, so you, nor anyone else has no say in what should not have happened. Fact is, it happened to be in a fully canonical storyline.

Last I checked, the purpose of storylines is to tell a story, actually. And when talking about the adventures of superheroes... Powers mean a hell of a lot. And even if the sole purpose of most comics isn't to create feats for a character, discussion of feats IS what this forum is for.

Fair enough, however, strories usually have multiple purposes, and the one I had mentioned was also the purpose. Discussion of characters IS what this forum is for, otherwise, threads wouldn't last long, considering that it would be so easy to determine the winner, after merely comparing a laudary list of super powers.

Depends on the degree of the loser and the elite. As I recall, Goku typically defeats opponents by making himself stronger than them and blasting them into oblivion. So I don't know how much water this quote holds.

This was way back when DBZ was actually good. It was during his first fight with Vegeta, in which Vegeta outlclassed him in every way.

Exactly. Spiderman's victory means relatively little because Firelord did NONE of that, when it's clearly within his power to do so. The mystical "power of heart" isn't all that it's cracked up to be. If it was, Thing would be friggin TOAA.

That's not really my point, however, Firelord did have his endurance, his precision, strength, and powers to be used in single combat. The writer made it quite clear why Fire lord wouldn't use all of his powers. Spiderman's powers don't compare to even those, yet he won. Call it whatever you like, but it won't change the fact that it's canon, and that Spiderman has beaten characters that he 'should not have beaten' more times than just this event.

Actually, America "won" the Revolutionary War because England was on the verge of war in Europe, and didn't want to commit the troops necessary to achieve victory. Guess what happened in the War of 1812, when England decided to prove that they COULD have killed us all? Correct, they kicked our asses. They really didn't want us back as colonies, so they contented themselves with burning down Washington and leaving, but we DID lose.

Check up on your history. America fought Britain to a standstil. America had its naval victories, and britain had its wins against napoleon and america Over all though, America's only fault was being ill-prepared towards the end. However, America gained more out of this war. I thought everyone knew this. As for the Revolutionary war, a majority of the battles involved the americans being outnumbered, and led by commanders with no experience whatsoever. Read up on the battle of bunker hill, if you don't believe me. By the way, we officially started the fight again Britain for 1812. Britain didn't just decide to prove who would win.

This should clear everything up. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_1812

The thing is, this essentially IS Starfire's powers vs. Spiderman's powers. What else is there? His charming personality? Plot devices? Crappy writing? The "it factor"? HEART!? Have you read the forum rules? If not, DO IT NOW! If so, DO IT AGAIN. (and read for a general comprehension this time)

What else is there? Who controls the powers of course. The one who controls the powers makes all the difference. With that, we can compare the wielders train of thought, experience, etc. What kind of gambit is this? Of course you discuss the characters and the powers here. I've seen it myself. Otherwise, there is no argument, since you'll always be able to determine the winner from merely 'comparing' powers side by side. As far as plot devices and crappy writing, that's the weakest counter argument I've heard. Not only is it subjective, but we find those quite constantly within both titles.