Spiderman vs Starfire

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin

I respect your opinion, but............ it's not your comic book; you didn't create it, so you, nor anyone else has no say in what should not have happened. Fact is, it happened to be in a fully canonical storyline.

Okay.

Let's assume that Batman would be fighting etc. Blockbuster in some issue. He has to dodge Blockbuster constantly, and when Blockbuster punches him, he's put down.

Next issue, pissed of Superman punches him as hard as he can, and Batman survives alive.

Superman is millions of times stronger then Blockbuster. If Blockbuster's punches hurt Batman, Superman's should outright kill him.

But he survives alive. Is it good to use this as example in Versus forums? No.

Fair enough, however, strories usually have multiple purposes, and the one I had mentioned was also the purpose. Discussion of characters IS what this forum is for, otherwise, threads wouldn't last long, considering that it would be so easy to determine the winner, after merely comparing a laudary list of super powers.

Actually, this forum is for discussion of characters:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f95/

Versus forum is about discussion of powers, skills and feats.

Not about how could their battle spirit is. Because it's not going to help you when your enemy can finish you before you have even a chance to start fighting. That's why the rules say this:

No Mentioning Events of PIS

Plot Induced Stupidity, or PIS, is when characters don't use their abilities or skills to the fullest extent as shown before, even within their personality ranges, for the sake of the story plotline. It makes lesser powered characters an actual challenge against higher powered characters in the comics. Examples of PIS include Flash stories lasting longer than three panels, or Toy Man as a threat to Superman.

If we would take the character's mind itself on consideration, then we wouldn't have Flash and Superman speedblitzing people.

And that's why you can't say that Spider-Man would beat Firelord in rematch if they both used their powers to their fullest extent. Because Spider-Man would simply get vaporized in 0.03 seconds.

Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
Nightwing/Robins are by extension Batman and thus they can do anything.

Originally posted by Dizzle
That's what PIS is... Stuff that HAPPENED that shouldn't have. Batman has punched out Solomon Grundy twice. 😄

Last I checked, the purpose of storylines is to tell a story, actually. And when talking about the adventures of superheroes... Powers mean a hell of a lot. And even if the sole purpose of most comics isn't to create feats for a character, discussion of feats IS what this forum is for.

Depends on the degree of the loser and the elite. As I recall, Goku typically defeats opponents by making himself stronger than them and blasting them into oblivion. So I don't know how much water this quote holds.

Exactly. Spiderman's victory means relatively little because Firelord did NONE of that, when it's clearly within his power to do so. The mystical "power of heart" isn't all that it's cracked up to be. If it was, Thing would be friggin TOAA.

Actually, America "won" the Revolutionary War because England was on the verge of war in Europe, and didn't want to commit the troops necessary to achieve victory. Guess what happened in the War of 1812, when England decided to prove that they COULD have killed us all? Correct, they kicked our asses. They really didn't want us back as colonies, so they contented themselves with burning down Washington and leaving, but we DID lose.

That was Pre-Crisis Superman... the same one that chased down specific rays of light across the universe and captured them on film. Then turned around and got spanked by a monkey. And people DO have a problem with Batman beating Supes. It's NEVER used in Batman debates as seriosu evidence, because batman talks through most of one of their fights about how the entire thing is heavy CIS.

Yup.

I dunno, 3 second fights aren't typically that memorable... 🙄

The thing is, this essentially IS Starfire's powers vs. Spiderman's powers. What else is there? His charming personality? Plot devices? Crappy writing? The "it factor"? HEART!? Have you read the forum rules? If not, [b]DO IT NOW! If so, DO IT AGAIN. (and read for a general comprehension this time) [/B]

Starfire wins.

http://unf-unf.de/show1081.html

this should make you feel better

BTW:

Classic Spidey cant really win against Starfire. Use Iron Spidey that would be a better match up.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Okay.

Let's assume that Batman would be fighting etc. Blockbuster in some issue. He has to dodge Blockbuster constantly, and when Blockbuster punches him, he's put down.

Next issue, pissed of Superman punches him as hard as he can, and Batman survives alive.

Superman is millions of times stronger then Blockbuster. If Blockbuster's punches hurt Batman, Superman's should outright kill him.

But he survives alive. Is it good to use this as example in Versus forums? No.

Actually, this forum is for discussion of characters:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f95/

Versus forum is about discussion of powers, skills and feats.

Not about how could their battle spirit is. Because it's not going to help you when your enemy can finish you before you have even a chance to start fighting. That's why the rules say this:

No Mentioning Events of PIS

Plot Induced Stupidity, or PIS, is when characters don't use their abilities or skills to the fullest extent as shown before, even within their personality ranges, for the sake of the story plotline. It makes lesser powered characters an actual challenge against higher powered characters in the comics. Examples of PIS include Flash stories lasting longer than three panels, or Toy Man as a threat to Superman.

If we would take the character's mind itself on consideration, then we wouldn't have Flash and Superman speedblitzing people.

And that's why you can't say that Spider-Man would beat Firelord in rematch if they both used their powers to their fullest extent. Because Spider-Man would simply get vaporized in 0.03 seconds.

Your example is a little extreme(by the way, toy man was only a match for superman because of careful planning, and Superman's moral code). Not only that, but again, it was constantly explained why Spiderman was a match for Firelord.

Now if the rematch were as you say, and that it was basically two androids given the powers of both character's, Fire lord's powers would win. But really, there's hardly any fun in just doing that. Pointless, since it's too easy to determine a winner by merely comparing super powers. It's like comparing the numbers 5 to 10. I'm surprised there are actually Batman versus threads here. Alas, I've ranted on long enough. Ciao.

Gah....I see no one has the heart to challenge my position on the subject. You're content attacking Kenshin (who's not doing terrible but made the egregious error of using a DBZ quote in this forum, which single-handedly ruins anything else he said... 🙂 ).

I stand by my guns....but don't feel like posting any of it again (I have a couple lengthy posts a page or two back). And thanks to whoever bumped this....this is a good thread.

You can't bash me that much. Nearly everyone used to like dbz at one point. Not that I still like it, but I can't forget one of the best lines from when the story was actually good. 😇

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Gah....I see no one has the heart to challenge my position on the subject. You're content attacking Kenshin (who's not doing terrible but made the egregious error of using a DBZ quote in this forum, which single-handedly ruins anything else he said... 🙂 ).

I stand by my guns....but don't feel like posting any of it again (I have a couple lengthy posts a page or two back). And thanks to whoever bumped this....this is a good thread.

Digi , Digi, Digi

I knew your were a big spiderman fan but I did not know you were this biased

Starfire can go head to head withpeople like Orion as seen in JLA/Titans The Technis Imperative, and Wonder Woman (in Teen Titans #6 I beleive)

So Digi use common sense
While Spidey may be able to doge slower heavy hitters like Jugernaut and Hulk he won't have a chance to doge Starfires blasts or nova attacks.

Now I bet you'll come after this with the spiderman has spidey sense and can dodge anythng argument 😆 (JK) 🙂

Originally posted by dman2008
Digi , Digi, Digi

I knew your were a big spiderman fan but I did not know you were this biased

Starfire can go head to head withpeople like Orion as seen in JLA/Titans The Technis Imperative, and Wonder Woman (in Teen Titans #6 I beleive)

So Digi use common sense
While Spidey may be able to doge slower heavy hitters like Jugernaut and Hulk he won't have a chance to doge Starfires blasts or nova attacks.

Now I bet you'll come after this with the spiderman has spidey sense and can dodge anythng argument 😆 (JK) 🙂

Actually, I'm pretty sure I used intelligent points my friend.... 😛

Oh, and that's Johnny that has the Nova blast....you're confusing your characters now. I've never seen Starfire do anything except regular-sized eneergy attacks....which Spidey dodges all the time without even thinking about it. She's also not so durable that Spidey can't hurt her. It would just take quite a pounding.

My conclusion earlier is that the fight could go either way. I'd even go so far as to say SF would probably take the majority. But a Spidey win is definitely a possibility.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Actually, I'm pretty sure I used intelligent points my friend.... 😛

Oh, and that's Johnny that has the Nova blast....you're confusing your characters now. I've never seen Starfire do anything except regular-sized eneergy attacks....which Spidey dodges all the time without even thinking about it.

My conclusion earlier is that the fight could go either way. I'd even go so far as to say SF would probably take the majority. But a Spidey win is definitely a possibility.

She used one in Outsiders 25 and one of the recent issues when Jade Shift and Her are Helping Donna Troy in space. It's an attack comparable to Human Torches beleive me.

My main problem with Spidey winning is his disadvantage with flyers (although writers rarely seem to exploit this). His main method of locomotion is web-swinging. This limits the altitude he can reach to the height of the tallest nearby buildings. Anything above that, Spidey would have great difficulty in sucessfully attacking.

What is to prevent Starfire from simply flying above the tallest building and simply hurling starbolts at Spiderman until she hits him? The would mean that she would be on the offensive and experience no threat of an attack by Spidey. While his speed and agility would enable him to avoid most of the attacks, but eventually the fact that he is constantly having to dodge and keep on the move would tire him (as opposed to Starfire who is simply hovering in place). A starbolt would eventually get close enough to Spidey to stun him and then the fight would be over.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin

Now if the rematch were as you say, and that it was basically two androids given the powers of both character's, Fire lord's powers would win. But really, there's hardly any fun in just doing that. Pointless, since it's too easy to determine a winner by merely comparing super powers. It's like comparing the numbers 5 to 10. I'm surprised there are actually Batman versus threads here. Alas, I've ranted on long enough. Ciao.

As long as it is within someone's power to do something, he/she can do so.

It is within Firelords power to fly up the air and fry Spider-Man.

It doesn't matter if it isn't fun. He can do so, and therefore it is a plausible strategy.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
😂
droolio You complete me...

Starfire wins.

😍 droolio

ATTACKING DIGI'S POINTS!!!

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Starfire can fly at FTL speeds, but travel speed and fight speed are very, very different. I've never seen her fight fast enough to assume that she's anything beyond "good reflexes and fighting skill". If someone can tell me otherwise, I'd be happy to reconsider this fight.

I'd agree that Spiderman would do a lot of dodging in this fight. THe "3 second fight" thing was sarcasm, I really do believe that it would take longer than that.

That said, the list of people Spider-Man has successfully dodged completely is long as hell....and it includes people far more skilled than Starfire. Everyone who is saying she'd have an easy win is assuming she'd get a solid number of hits in on Spidey....and that's much less likely than people think. He's been punched by the likes of an enraged Hulk and only had broken ribs, so it wouldn't be a one-hit kill. Far from it.

Who has he dodged consistantly who is comparable to Starfire in both skill and speed? She's just about as fast and almost as skilled as Namor, though not as strong. I don't remember Spidey ever taking down Namor, becasue he is a good mix of physical power, speed, and skill, just as Starfire is. (When compared to Parker... I'd personally vote Namor in a fight between the two, but it'd be close as hell)

And that assumes she can hit him at all. The hard part comes with Spidey getting in a mega amount of hits without taking too many himself. Again, entirely possible (though it could go either way) and Starfire's durability isn't beyond Spidey's ability to hurt. It would take a while, no doubt, but it's possible.

It's possible, if she both tones down her speed, skills, and intelligence, AND fails to use any of her better energy attacks. Which, for me, would be the very definition of a PIS win,, which is why I still regard Spidey vs. Firelord as PIS. Spidey didn't fight Firelord, Spidey fought some moderately fast guy with no skills, mediocre durability, and some simple fire blasts. That isn't even close to what Firelord can do, even going for minimal area destruction.

If anyone hasn't read it, go to my respect thread and read the FL fight (and there's no way that should be "banned" by the rules...I think I'll be looking into that). Seriously though. The only attack FL doesn't use is the one that could destroy a city. Other than that, he's going all out, and could disintegrate Spidey with one shot. But he can't, and Spidey punks him by hitting him a sick number of times without getting hit in return. It's not as much PIS as people seem to think. No one would argue that Starfire is beyond FL in terms of power, durability, or skill...and she doesn't have a city-block destroying attack either.

Again, Firelord had amny many things that he could have done to kill Spidey, while still minimizing damage to the surrounding area. I agree, the feats done by Spiderman in the fight are good, but Firelord is written well below almost every single one of his capabilities. Except possibly for the size of his ego.

So where does that leave us?? It leaves us with a conundrum over whether or not you think SF would hit him a few times before Spidey walloped her enough to win. Either way is entirely possible, as I see it.

I just simply don't see him getting in that many hits before she realizes she needs to use a bit more energy. The simply fact that she HAS an omnidirectional attack, coupled with the fact that it would take a LOT of hits to put her down, makes a non-PIS/CIS victory for Spiderman nearly impossible.

Again, if there's something I'm not considering about Starfire, please let me know...because I'm not an authority on her character by any means. But I think I've given her the credit she deserves, and pointed out that Spidey is no stranger to people in her power class.

I think you're underestimating Starfire a tad, mostly because of her starbolts. What's to stop her from blasting the ground from under them while Spidey tries to hit her? She can take it, Spiderman probably can't. If she's seriously in trouble, she can blast in all directions at once, which WOULD be impossible for Spidey to dodge. She's simply too durable and versatile for Spiderman to put down before she takes the appropriate actions to all but guarantee a victory.

I think LP knew what he doing when he made this thread. It's a decent fight. I'll shy away from a "This person wins X/10" because I realize I'm biased....but I just wanted to get my opinion out there.

-DM

That or it's a spite thread gone wrong. Whatevah.

Respectable Dizzle....well said.

I've never actually seen her do one of those "energy in every direction" attacks but if she can, then things change a bit. But in, say, a city environment in would still be possible as all heck for Spidey to not get hit by it.

Oh, and you wanted people he's dodged and/or fought. He fought Namor without getting hit for quite a while, though there wasn't an actual winner. He's fought the Hulk several times, and pretty much the only thing that's ever hit him has been a thunderclap. Not to bring this up again, but FL was taking down buildings with some of his blasts...so they were hardly his tiniest shots. Hell, he beat Superboy in a crossover, though I realize the massive PIS involved with that. He's dodged similarly building-destroying blasts from Surfer (when he was wearing the symbiote). He's webbed Quicksilver and repeatedly dodged Speed Demon, so that has to count for a ton. And the ridiculous amount of times he's dodged multiple blasts at the same time, whether it's bullet fire or energy blasts, also is a credit to his dodging skill.

Also keep in mind he recently beat Hulk in a canon comic (the one where Electro is watching on TV). Hulk's in rage mode, so he probably forgets about his thunderclap, but Spidey's whups the crap out of him with fire hydrants, busses, etc. Again, some CIS, but it shows what he's capable of with some motivation.

In any case, I've still always stated that SF would win the majority here. I've simply been trying to show that it wouldn't be impossible for Spidey to take her down.

"Originally posted by DigiMark007
Starfire can fly at FTL speeds, but travel speed and fight speed are very, very different. I've never seen her fight fast enough to assume that she's anything beyond "good reflexes and fighting skill". If someone can tell me otherwise, I'd be happy to reconsider this fight."

If Starfire can fly at faster than light speed, why can't she simply accelerate through Spiderman's body? All she would have to do is to be able to see Spiderman and then jump to FTL speed with a path that would go through where Spidey is standing.

She may not be able to fight at that speed, but I'd imagine that in order to fly faster than light her acceleration should be resonably faster than Spiderman can react to. Now her durability isn't that of Superman so whatever part of her body that contacts Spidey at that speed would be damaged, but I'd think he would come off the worst from it.

Originally posted by TheKahn
"Originally posted by DigiMark007
Starfire can fly at FTL speeds, but travel speed and fight speed are very, very different. I've never seen her fight fast enough to assume that she's anything beyond "good reflexes and fighting skill". If someone can tell me otherwise, I'd be happy to reconsider this fight."

If Starfire can fly at faster than light speed, why can't she simply accelerate through Spiderman's body? All she would have to do is to be able to see Spiderman and then jump to FTL speed with a path that would go through where Spidey is standing.

She may not be able to fight at that speed, but I'd imagine that in order to fly faster than light her acceleration should be resonably faster than Spiderman can react to. Now her durability isn't that of Superman so whatever part of her body that contacts Spidey at that speed would be damaged, but I'd think he would come off the worst from it.

Meh...when is that sort of attack ever used? Ever?

Besides, if he knows she's attacking, he'll just jump aside...even if it's fast he'll still have a second or two notice before she strikes. The idea behind differentiating between flight and combat speeds is that she has less control over the flight speed. If she misses, she can't turn on a dime and smack Spidey at 500 mph or something like that.

You guys are still missing the point. I've always been willing to give SF the majority....I just don't see it as a curbstomp like you do.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Meh...when is that sort of attack ever used? Ever?

Besides, if he knows she's attacking, he'll just jump aside...even if it's fast he'll still have a second or two notice before she strikes. The idea behind differentiating between flight and combat speeds is that she has less control over the flight speed. If she misses, she can't turn on a dime and smack Spidey at 500 mph or something like that.

You guys are still missing the point. I've always been willing to give SF the majority....I just don't see it as a curbstomp like you do.

I think ti really would be a good fight, but I don't think Spiderman's offense will EVER be good enough to put down Starfire. He could EVENTUALLY but it would take a hell of a lot, where she is both fast, strong, and versatile. He would give her a run, but his chances for actual victory would be very very small. So while I agree that it wouldn't be a curbstomp, per se, (he would get a lot of hits, but usually not nearly enough to put her down) Starfire would get a very solid majority, something like 9/10.