Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
Or maybe the writer didn't read the Bio, or ignored it taking into consideration that Fire Lord is a Herald of Galactus with near limitless power, and decided that he was probably nearly as strong as Thor.
Or maybe youre completely wrong and the handbook came out after those fights. Find me the issue number and i'll tell you. 🙂
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Maybe ive misinterpreted the last bit of your post but if Thor said that about Firelord then thats really not helping your case.Agreed the handbooks arent always the most accurate resources however nothing short of lifting feats or a direct test of strength against a class 100 powerhouse is enough im afraid. Combat feats arent conclusive. If they were then Wolverine would be class 100. Officially hes class 50 so for debating purposes thats all we can use in debates.
problem with that though is that wolverine fights against bricks are
1) dodging
2) striking
3) getting hit.........getting up........then mutter "bub"
4) more PIS ensues
on the rare occassions, logic is followed
1) he dodges
2) he strikes
3) he get's caught by one counter attack and down goes the angry canuck such as case on his fight against sasquatch and savage hulk.
part of those are attributed to his durability and regen but he has never shown strength comparable to his opponents.
But he never ever ever tries to hand grapple with his opponent nor choke them nor taken on double team of class 100's.
Originally posted by who?-kid
I also remember a fight (ten years ago or so) in which a very angry Spider-Man knocked She-Hulk across the room. She sure felt it, and the Avengers had to separate them.I am NOT saying Spider-Man would win, but well, erm, just, well you know... 😎
Pissed off Spidey seems to rival the Hulk 😉
Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
Then this proves beyond a doubt that Supes would murder Thor. Supes does not get matched by Class 50 characters !!!!!!!!
Supes DOES get matched by people with magical weaponry and powers. Like, say, Thor.
As for the whole debate, hand to hand doesn't make a difference of strength. In the case of Shulkie vs Spidey, Jen only weighs about 600-700lbs at most. Spidey can lift 15 tons and probably hit with enough force to move a couple tons.
Jen can hold her ground all she wants, but her durability doesn't matter if her WEIGHT is being moved. On top of that, strength isn't durability. To a point it does, but that's very little.
As for Firelord vs Thor, Class 50 to class 100 isn't a big difference. It's like peak human vs class 10. The latter has the advantage, but the former isn't horribly outclassed.
Originally posted by Sixth_Winged
problem with that though is that wolverine fights against bricks are1) dodging
2) striking
3) getting hit.........getting up........then mutter "bub"
4) more PIS ensueson the rare occassions, logic is followed
1) he dodges
2) he strikes
3) he get's caught by one counter attack and down goes the angry canuck such as case on his fight against sasquatch and savage hulk.part of those are attributed to his durability and regen but he has never shown strength comparable to his opponents.
But he never ever ever tries to hand grapple with his opponent nor choke them nor taken on double team of class 100's.
How many times has Wolverine Choke held the Hulk ? ..... I bet its somewhere in the region of, ummm none !!!!!! The same applies with Soiderman. Infact I bet even someone as strong as the Thing would have difficulty, performing such a manouvre
Originally posted by MuffinmanMikeAs for Firelord vs Thor, Class 50 to class 100 isn't a big difference. It's like peak human vs class 10. The latter has the advantage, but the former isn't horribly outclassed.
'It's like peak human vs class 10.'
Puhhhh lease .... youre saying Thor can only lift 500 tons, which is utter bull crap. Thor could lift 500 tons with his eye lashes !!!!!!
Thor eventually freed himself from the chokehold due to his superior strength so whats the problem. It was a choke hold not an arm wrestle not a direct pitting of strength so your point is moot. She hulk at a time when she was class 75 has also held Thor in a choke hold for a little while before he managed to free himself, just check out her respect thread. Theres a precedence for weaker characters being able to restrain and match up to far superior characters in Marvel. The instances pointed out arent conclusive evidence of Firelord being way beyond his stat figures. On top of that you've stated youve stated that level 7 characters like Thor have as much strength as and when they need it to perform mammoth tasks. In Marvel characters who perform such feats dont wield and apply such strength on a daily basis in every situation. They just have an incalulable level of strength which grows to meet their needs. That explains why weaker character can match them for a little while before being overpowered. Regardless you yourself have regularly turned your nose up at combat feats as a measure of strength so its puzzling to see you now using Firelords as an example of him being virtually class 100.
Originally posted by Sixth_Winged
The problem with though was it wasn't just a mere chockhold, they were grappling with their hands before that in a match of strength with firelord winning. If he wasn't anywhere near 100, he wouldn't have done that. And thor didn't break the chokehold without struggle either. Jen's choke on thor might be similar, but then again TOHOTMU's strength gauge is crap.And no, chokehold on stronger beings isn't as infrequent as you're implying. There are few exceptions like some vampires *cough*dracula*cough* and others, but heralds would hardly seem the type to, heck even engaging h2h is a rare occurence for them.
Come up with a variety of lifitng feats for Firelord and you've made your point. Combat feats are insufficent. Many a weak character has faced off and done well against characters far superior to them, however such showings are not regular for them, they are not consistently shown to be within the characters power set, hence why such occassions are ignored in the handbooks and should be marked off as bad writing or possibly even CIS on the stronger characters part. Regardless you have nothing conclusive. By your logic a whol ehost of normal human characters such as Storm, Human Torch, Captain America and the like would be superhuman powerhouses. Theres a precedence for such OTT writing from time to time in the past. It is ignored officially. You have nothing CONCLUSIVE to go on.
BTW who was marking off chokeholds on stronger beings as infrequent. Re-read my post and you'll see all along ive been making a case for weaker beings putting superior ones at a disadvantage. That point is detrimental to your case so why you've just highlighted it in your post is most puzzling. Do such occassions mean the weaker characters are on par with the superior ones? Not necessarily❌ Are they CONCLUSIVE evidence? ❌
Firelords updated bio will be released in 2 months and who knows he may well be upgraded to a higher class and then he may not be. However officially he is class 50 for now and he has no conclusive on panel showings to tell us otherwise. 😉
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Come up with a variety of lifitng feats for Firelord and you've made your point. Combat feats are insufficent. Many a weak character has faced off and done well against characters far superior to them, however such showings are not regular for them, they are not consistently shown to be within the characters power set, hence why such occassions are ignored in the handbooks and should be marked off as bad writing or possibly even CIS on the stronger characters part. Regardless you have nothing conclusive. By your logic a whol ehost of normal human characters such as Storm, Human Torch, Captain America and the like would be superhuman powerhouses. Theres a precedence for such OTT writing from time to time in the past. It is ignored officially. You have nothing CONCLUSIVE to go on.
Like i said, if it weren't only for the fact they were grappling. I concur that there are no lifting feats for Firelord considering he's a herald and i haven't seen any herald lift any ever. Even Silver Surfer. Now, would lifting be the only test to measure one's strength?
BTW who was marking off chokeholds on stronger beings as infrequent. Re-read my post and you'll see all along ive been making a case for weaker beings putting superior ones at a disadvantage. That point is detrimental to your case so why you've just highlighted it in your post is most puzzling. Do such occassions mean the weaker characters are on par with the superior ones? Not necessarily❌ Are they CONCLUSIVE evidence? ❌
Implying. It seems that way to me, if i'm wrong, my bad then.
Firelords updated bio will be released in 2 months and who knows he may well be upgraded to a higher class and then he may not be. However officially he is class 50 for now and he has no conclusive on panel showings to tell us otherwise. 😉
📖 BIO's are hardly acurrate time and time again. Do you have to honestly take it like a marvel bible or something? They provide good source of info on the character's background, but they screw up 90% of the time on strength levels and powerset. 😖hifty:
Originally posted by Sixth_Winged
Like i said, if it weren't only for the fact they were grappling. I concur that there are no lifting feats for Firelord considering he's a herald and i haven't seen any herald lift any ever. Even Silver Surfer. Now, would lifting be the only test to measure one's strength?
Given Firelords contradictive bio and the precedence for weaker characters to perform well against far superior characters then yes a variety of lifting feats are just about the only conclusive way to prove Firelords lifting capacity. Namor went through the same thing being previously marked as class 85 however he was written performing a number of impressive lifting feats which saw his rating increased. Who knows Firelord may very well have his rating increased but as of right now theres nothing conclusive on panel to show hes way beyond his class 50 rating.
Originally posted by Sixth_Winged
Implying. It seems that way to me, if i'm wrong, my bad then.
Cool. 🙂
Originally posted by Sixth_Winged
BIO's are hardly acurrate time and time again. Do you have to honestly take it like a marvel bible or something? They provide good source of info on the character's background, but they screw up 90% of the time on strength levels and powerset.
Well first off that figures your opinion. Youre right the handbooks arent 100% accurate however thats irrelevant in this case as Firelord has no conclusive strength feats to tell us that his bio is one of the inaccurate ones. Combat feats for the aforementioned reasons are not conclusive. Theres no past showings of Firelords to tell us these few combat feats are nothing but bad writing.
Well at the moment, i'd also settle for inconclusive. But i really don't think it's limits should be just 50 tons. IMO it should be more based on his combat performance otherwise he'd get his ass handed to him by Thor on melee.
Damn Marvel 😠, i wish there were other highlights on heralds aside from Shiny Space Jesus.
Originally posted by Sixth_Winged
Well at the moment, i'd also settle for inconclusive. But i really don't think it's limits should be just 50 tons. IMO it should be more based on his combat performance otherwise he'd get his ass handed to him by Thor on melee.Damn Marvel, i wish there were other highlights on heralds aside from Shiny Space Jesus.
Well considering thats the only official figure we have thats all we can treat as fact in debate. We have no showings of his to let us know those few instances (which im betting were around the same period) were nothing but examples of bad writing. Given the far superior foes Thors taken down it seems that could be the case.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
On this forum that event is written off as PIS/CIS. In fact whenever a character performs a feat which is way beyond their stated powerset then you'll often see said instance dismissed with a "SvFL". Spiderman Vs Firelord. Check the forum rules.
Nobody complains about Batman punching Hulk in the stomach, but a very long, hard fight in which Spider-Man barely wins against a second rate Herald, is suddenly the prime example of PIS/CIS ?
Spider-Man has taken on (and beaten) other powerhouses too (Hulk, Morlun, Rhino, Absorbing Man, Titania, IM 2020 to name a few), some as least as powerful as Firelord.
The fight was indeed a bit exaggerated (what fight isn't ?) but not so much as you may think. It was a pretty good fight end of story.
Originally posted by who?-kid
Those forum rules sound a bit like censorship.Nobody complains about Batman punching Hulk in the stomach, but a very long, hard fight in which Spider-Man barely wins against a second rate Herald, is suddenly the prime example of PIS/CIS ?
Spider-Man has taken on (and beaten) other powerhouses too (Hulk, Morlun, Rhino, Absorbing Man, Titania, IM 2020 to name a few), some as least as powerful as Firelord.
The fight was indeed a bit exaggerated (what fight isn't ?) but not so much as you may think. It was a pretty good fight end of story.
Youre talking as if i made up the rules i didnt. The mods did. Now that really is the end of the story.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Thor eventually freed himself from the chokehold due to his superior strength so whats the problem. It was a choke hold not an arm wrestle not a direct pitting of strength so your point is moot. She hulk at a time when she was class 75 has also held Thor in a choke hold for a little while before he managed to free himself, just check out her respect thread. Theres a precedence for weaker characters being able to restrain and match up to far superior characters in Marvel. The instances pointed out arent conclusive evidence of Firelord being way beyond his stat figures. On top of that you've stated youve stated that level 7 characters like Thor have as much strength as and when they need it to perform mammoth tasks. In Marvel characters who perform such feats dont wield and apply such strength on a daily basis in every situation. They just have an incalulable level of strength which grows to meet their needs. That explains why weaker character can match them for a little while before being overpowered. Regardless you yourself have regularly turned your nose up at combat feats as a measure of strength so its puzzling to see you now using Firelords as an example of him being virtually class 100.
Fair point !!!!!!!! Very Good post B.T.W. sorry sixth wing you're on youre own, ive just been severly Skanked by G.S.
G.S. in response, you are right in a way but .... oooh damm im so ****ing confused now, i dont know where i stand. What you are saying is very true, but i've decided to take a diffrent stance i.e. by avoiding the Bio's all together.
Well played any way !!!!!!!