A thought on the idea of an all-good God...

Originally posted by Janus Marius
That violates Occam's Razor to make such a claim. Unless you can prove argumentally or empirically that morality can EXIST outside of human rational thinking, which would be akin to saying that beasts in the field operate morally along with the rocks and the vacuum in space. Saying God is "Above and beyond human morality" is attributing an unrealistic and irrational trait to God. With that mindset, you can argue (foolishly) that God is all-good, all-powerful, all-knowing, and eternal just cuz... he's God.

Random sidethought---- The term "God" does imply a supernatural creator, but even how the world is created (that it follows certain rules and has order) implies that its creator (Should there be one) would need to be similar in nature. For example, if God were without order, rules, and without form, how could he create creation that HAS these things? How could you rationally define something from nothing? While at this point you could go into a whole spiel, that becomes a totally subjective and irrational approach on the topic, and it's just spouting your opinion. So to work objectively, we work within reason. Even God, so far as we discuss him, must be reasonable or else the topic has veered in the wrong direction. / side thought.

Now, if I conclude (As do the majority of you), that creation includes elements of evil, or non-good, it stands to reason that God is responsible for it, since he created everything. And if God creates evil, God is tainted by it, and is at fault for it. After all, he created EVERYTHING. Saying that God is somehow "not at fault" for something he had hand in creating is like saying a programmer isn't at fault for incomplete or corrupt data.

Yes your right...It does violate Occams Razor, though I still thought it a bit silly that we presume to grasp Gods law better than God himself. No worth in an argument between humans though...

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Yes your right...It does violate Occams Razor, though I still thought it a bit silly that we presume to grasp Gods law better than God himself. No worth in an argument between humans though...

Well, it's obvious that we cannot prove or disprove God's existance at this point, let alone his will and law. So any values we attach to either are purely subjective. From a rational argument standpoint, the odds are against god being all good.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
In a sense, but it goes well before his existance. Think of cause and effect as a near limitless span of dominoes that branch like veins.

Oh, I know, I was just too lazy to write that many 'great's.

So now kids can blame their parents for everything. Woot!

Woot! Yea!

*Breaks windows and vandalizes the walls*

Somewhere, a moral relativist is going... "Yes! Finally!"

One day (the sixth, to be exact), God said, "What would be a true test of my power? What would be more clever a creation than a being with free will? A being which may choose not to believe I exist. Now how cool would that be..."

Hence, the source of evil, OR, the best example of God's sense of humor.

As for God's sense of morality, or any Divine traits:
While I understand from a rational-empirical POV you wanna keep things testable, how does one, from that POV, operationally define "God," while staying true to the "spirit" (pun intended) of what we'd be testing for?

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Here's something I thought of...

Let's pressupose first that we're trying to prove a God that is all-good. Meaning, he is only good, and not evil.

1. God is all-good.

2. Good is determined by being contrasted with evil.

3. Therefore, for good to be defined, evil must exist.

4. If God is all-good, then evil exists.

5. A being who is all-good would want to exterminate evil.

6. Yet evil exists.

7. Therefore, either God is not all-good or he is helpless to stop evil.

At this point let us resume with the assumption that God is still all-good. If this is the case, he must be unable to prevent the evil. Now, before the religious doctrine starts sprouting out of the woodwork, let me add an analogy to help this argument (To better put it into context):

Suppose that God is a lifeguard or capable adult laying on the beach. A child comes along. God warns the child of the dangers of the water. But the child goes in anyways. The tide begins to pull the child out (Or a shark appears, jellyfish, current, etc.). Now, could anyone believe that God would be all-good if he did NOT run out and save that child?

Even from his or her own ignorance?

Just curious.

Alot of ignorant statements made. But let me tackle one. Just because God chooses not to stop evil completely NOW, doesn't mean he's helpless against it. Read Revelations. Evil and evil people will have their end in due time. When judgement day comes for sinners evil will have been banished in the Lake of Fire for eternity. Life on earth is such a short time on the scale of eternity.

Also God did save the child. I feel like he's run out in the ocean and has saved unbelievers so many times. The Devil comes to "steal, kill, and destroy". If Satan had a say we'd all be dead right now. But we're still alive. I believe God has swam out in the ocean many times for us and saved us from drowning. But alot of people kick out of his arms and choose to drown anyways. There's only so much God can do with people who dont love him.

Originally posted by Punker69
Alot of ignorant statements made.

Only real ignorance I see here is coming from your corner. Everyone else aside from Bardock seems to be at least civil about this.

But let me tackle one.

Gee, just one? I thought you were the non-ignorant one here. Can't get your boots dirty?

Just because God chooses not to stop evil completely NOW, doesn't mean he's helpless against it.

The idea that God chooses not to stop evil NOW means he's not GOOD. No good person lets evil happen if they can prevent it, period.

Read Revelations.

I did. Boring ass read. And if you think the Bible is the answer to all my rational arguments, you are a fool.

Evil and evil people will have their end in due time.

O rly? Can you PROVE this? Without the holy Bible? This is not "answer my moral dilemma with subjective personal faith" thread... this is "There is a problem with the rational nature of god being all good" thread. Get it right. Unless you can attempt to rationalize the situation at hand, don't bother.

When judgement day comes for sinners evil will have been banished in the Lake of Fire for eternity. Life on earth is such a short time on the scale of eternity.

I'd like to see some evidence of the existance of the Lake of Fire, and it's effects on intangible spirits. And really, this whole "It's going to be solved in the afterlife/future" ordeal behind religion is pretty piss-poor excuse for God not giving a shit right now. If this life doesn't matter, why have moral laws?

Also God did save the child. I feel like he's run out in the ocean and has saved unbelievers so many times.

God should ideally save ALL the children, from themselves and from harm and suffering if he is indeed ALL GOOD. He does not. Therefore, he is not. Period.

The Devil comes to "steal, kill, and destroy". If Satan had a say we'd all be dead right now. But we're still alive. I believe God has swam out in the ocean many times for us and saved us from drowning. But alot of people kick out of his arms and choose to drown anyways. There's only so much God can do with people who dont love him.

That's pretty. Really. Brought a tear to my eye. Unfortunately, I don't believe in any of that crap, and your belief and take on God doesn't change the argument and dilemma. Nice try though.

For the record, I don't like you because of how you've treated others in the past as a hypocrite and a judgmental *******, and you really didn't endear yourself to me by saying:

Originally posted by Punker69
Alot of ignorant statements made.

So please, do me a favor and don't reply to my threads or posts.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
I did. Boring ass read. And if you think the Bible is the answer to all my rational arguments, you are a fool.

I disagree. I think Revalations is the best read in the entire Bible.

Seven headed dragons emering from molten lakes, fire raining from the sky, the Four Horsemen of the Apocaplypse, Jesus dressed in white and gold shining armor, battling it out with Satan, Jesus making the earth quake and all the dead rise from their graves, demons roaming the charred and decaying earth, and then finally Jesus making his final judgement and killing everyone who isn't a True Christian™, whether they are a good person or not.

I read the majority of it, ironically, during a ceremony held for my graduating high school class. We were in a church(it was a Lutheran School), and instead of singing along or sharing in the gospel, I picked up a Bible and took a glimpse into the future of hellfire and brimstone that the dear Lord Baby Jesus is going to bring forth unto us.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
The idea that God chooses not to stop evil NOW means he's not GOOD. No good person lets evil happen if they can prevent it, period.

Whats the basis for this statement? God has created everything with free will. Either to serve him or not to serve him. Simple as that. He doesn't make anybody serve him. So therefore if someone chooses to be evil he's not going to stop them. He is a good God. But if someone chooses not to love him and choose of a life of evil he's not going to stop them.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
I did. Boring ass read. And if you think the Bible is the answer to all my rational arguments, you are a fool.

Its not unheard of. But I am interested to know why exactly you found Revelations to be a boring read when so many find it to be the most fascinating in the Bible.

You started a religious discussion and I gave you a religious answer. No I am not a fool because I choose to have faith and believe in a God named Jesus. Who can really be the fool? I believe something, you dont. I believe in someone who's all powerful and you dont. What makes you think your right and so justified. When someone asked a religious questions I give them a religions answer if Its about the Bible. And if someone is trying to promote false Christian doctrine then I call them out and prove how they're wrong.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
I'd like to see some evidence of the existance of the Lake of Fire, and it's effects on intangible spirits. And really, this whole "It's going to be solved in the afterlife/future" ordeal behind religion is pretty piss-poor excuse for God not giving a shit right now. If this life doesn't matter, why have moral laws?

I cant prove anything to you. You cant prove anything to me. Both of our viewpoints rely on some kind of faith somewhere down the line.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
God should ideally save ALL the children, from themselves and from harm and suffering if he is indeed ALL GOOD. He does not. Therefore, he is not. Period.

Why cant this get threw your thin skull?! God has given everyone free will to do as they please. Just read how stupid you sound. You want someone to come and make you love him and make you a believer and carry you to heaven without any effort on your part. God paid the price and SAVED you at Calvary. He's done all that he needed to do. Its up to the unbeliever to do the rest and respond to the truth that has been presented to him.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
For the record, I don't like you because of how you've treated others in the past as a hypocrite and a judgmental *******, and you really didn't endear yourself to me by saying:

As i've said in the past you dont have an understanding of what its mean to be judgemental. I merely tell people who have biblical questions what my Bible says on the matter. And if its not Christian based but a religious question at best, I give them an answer to there question whatever it may be.

"Yes, my people, you have free will and can make choices! However, you must love me! If you chose not to, I'll torture you forever and ever!"

Doesn't sound like much of a choice, does it?

Originally posted by Punker69
Whats the basis for this statement? God has created everything with free will. Either to serve him or not to serve him. Simple as that. He doesn't make anybody serve him. So therefore if someone chooses to be evil he's not going to stop them. He is a good God. But if someone chooses not to love him and choose of a life of evil he's not going to stop them.

If God truly valued freedom of will, then he would not mind if people made bad choices or decided to oh... not believe in him and murder eighty people. However, according to the scriptures that you parrot mindlessly, God does NOT value free will; he values that people obey HIS commands. Since this is the cas, the idea of GIVING people free will in the first place is contradictory to God's desires, since he wants them all to obey him. At this point, you'll argue that having free will is instrinsically good; I ask how? Next you'll say that God can't make people obey him. I'll ask you; is he all powerful? Why would he refrain if his ultimate goal was all people following his orders? Isn't that the end goal of Christianity? Obediance to God? Faith in God? If he desires these things, and he has the ability to bring them about, it makes no sense that he would NOT have them.

And back to the argument I first presented, if his goal was GOOD, and not just obediance or some nebulous illusion of free will, he would save that child from the water every single time.

Its not unheard of. But I am interested to know why exactly you found Revelations to be a boring read when so many find it to be the most fascinating in the Bible.

I found a good deal of the book boring. It's not cohesive. It reads poorly. Some of the major stories have serious problems. And I don't get rivited reading something I know is not only fiction, but poorly conceived fiction.

You started a religious discussion and I gave you a religious answer. No I am not a fool because I choose to have faith and believe in a God named Jesus. Who can really be the fool? I believe something, you dont. I believe in someone who's all powerful and you dont. What makes you think your right and so justified. When someone asked a religious questions I give them a religions answer if Its about the Bible. And if someone is trying to promote false Christian doctrine then I call them out and prove how they're wrong.

You are MISSING. THE. POINT. This isn't a Christian question- it's a very generic and general one. You come back at it with convuluted doctrine, and that isn't answering the question; it's making for more questions and inconsistancies. What I've presented is a moral dillemma on the part of God, since evil is allowed to exist. He also allows choice to exist, which can allow for evil. So we're right back to square one: God allows evil to exist. He cannot be all-good.

I cant prove anything to you. You cant prove anything to me. Both of our viewpoints rely on some kind of faith somewhere down the line.

And if this were really true, you would not be questioning my stance because it is based on faith. However, my stance is not based on faith; it's based on reason. And faith handles reason about as well as ten year olds handle forest fires. Do yourself a favor- read the argument I've presented. Clear your mind of bias and subjective faith, and examine the variables in the argument. Then take a stab at it. Coming right back at me with "omg... u r teh ignorant!!! teh bibble sez" does not prove anything more than your own blind attachment to a little book.

Why cant this get threw your thin skull?! God has given everyone free will to do as they please. Just read how stupid you sound. You want someone to come and make you love him and make you a believer and carry you to heaven without any effort on your part. God paid the price and SAVED you at Calvary. He's done all that he needed to do. Its up to the unbeliever to do the rest and respond to the truth that has been presented to him.

"Just read how stupid you sound"? Yeah, way to be intelligent and open-minded, Punker. I could say the same about you, only it'd be accurate.

And if all God has to do is sacrifice his son and everyone has to just believe, that's a pretty damn lazy God. Doesn't even have the decency to actively take part in everyone's life. Let me put it this way: if the objective was to make say, a girl notice you, would you remain invisible and hope she buys your book? Please. Don't be ridiculous. This "God's hands off" approach doesn't hold up to common sense.

As i've said in the past you dont have an understanding of what its mean to be judgemental. I merely tell people who have biblical questions what my Bible says on the matter. And if its not Christian based but a religious question at best, I give them an answer to there question whatever it may be.

Yes, cuz you are the end all, aren't you? No, you're not. Stfu. You have no authority to tell other people what they know or don't know when you yourself are blind to the truth.

Originally posted by Punker69
Whats the basis for this statement? God has created everything with free will. Either to serve him or not to serve him. Simple as that. He doesn't make anybody serve him. So therefore if someone chooses to be evil he's not going to stop them. He is a good God. But if someone chooses not to love him and choose of a life of evil he's not going to stop them.

Its not unheard of. But I am interested to know why exactly you found Revelations to be a boring read when so many find it to be the most fascinating in the Bible.

You started a religious discussion and I gave you a religious answer. No I am not a fool because I choose to have faith and believe in a God named Jesus. Who can really be the fool? I believe something, you dont. I believe in someone who's all powerful and you dont. What makes you think your right and so justified. When someone asked a religious questions I give them a religions answer if Its about the Bible. And if someone is trying to promote false Christian doctrine then I call them out and prove how they're wrong.

I cant prove anything to you. You cant prove anything to me. Both of our viewpoints rely on some kind of faith somewhere down the line.

Why cant this get threw your thin skull?! God has given everyone free will to do as they please. Just read how stupid you sound. You want someone to come and make you love him and make you a believer and carry you to heaven without any effort on your part. God paid the price and SAVED you at Calvary. He's done all that he needed to do. Its up to the unbeliever to do the rest and respond to the truth that has been presented to him.

As i've said in the past you dont have an understanding of what its mean to be judgemental. I merely tell people who have biblical questions what my Bible says on the matter. And if its not Christian based but a religious question at best, I give them an answer to there question whatever it may be.

Here, Royal Guard. Since you're asking a lot of questions, I figured you might want to have a go at this one.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Here's something I thought of...

Let's pressupose first that we're trying to prove a God that is all-good. Meaning, he is only good, and not evil.

1. God is all-good.

2. Good is determined by being contrasted with evil.

3. Therefore, for good to be defined, evil must exist.

4. If God is all-good, then evil exists.

5. A being who is all-good would want to exterminate evil.

6. Yet evil exists.

7. Therefore, either God is not all-good or he is helpless to stop evil.

At this point let us resume with the assumption that God is still all-good. If this is the case, he must be unable to prevent the evil. Now, before the religious doctrine starts sprouting out of the woodwork, let me add an analogy to help this argument (To better put it into context):

Suppose that God is a lifeguard or capable adult laying on the beach. A child comes along. God warns the child of the dangers of the water. But the child goes in anyways. The tide begins to pull the child out (Or a shark appears, jellyfish, current, etc.). Now, could anyone believe that God would be all-good if he did NOT run out and save that child?

Even from his or her own ignorance?

Just curious.

* okay... i got your point...

* but let me ask you, regarding your argument... do you really believe that death here on earth is a bad thing? and do you believe that is life after death?

* these questions are very important for me to figure out how to answer your argument logically and at the same time Biblically... 😉

Is it possible that God created us by dissipating himself?

Could we all be minor manifestations of the force that is God?

Check out Quantam Physics studies, this shit is AMAZING...and it sort of supports this idea.

I don't beleive that God could be ALL good or ALL Bad....i hardly beleive in a God.

There's no way we can overpower this so called "omnipotent" God by taking the world as our own and having him just WATCH.....and a God who is all good would not just WATCH evil happen, he would do something about it.

There are people who pray to prevent horrible things, and those prayers are often unanswered.

"Ah...But it was the Will of God for this to occur"

So where does Free Will fit into all this?

I thought he gave us free will, and cannot interfere in the lives of the people.

Religious beleifs contradict themselves.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Here's something I thought of...

Let's pressupose first that we're trying to prove a God that is all-good. Meaning, he is only good, and not evil.

1. God is all-good.

2. Good is determined by being contrasted with evil.

3. Therefore, for good to be defined, evil must exist.

4. If God is all-good, then evil exists.

5. A being who is all-good would want to exterminate evil.

6. Yet evil exists.

7. Therefore, either God is not all-good or he is helpless to stop evil.

At this point let us resume with the assumption that God is still all-good. If this is the case, he must be unable to prevent the evil. Now, before the religious doctrine starts sprouting out of the woodwork, let me add an analogy to help this argument (To better put it into context):

Suppose that God is a lifeguard or capable adult laying on the beach. A child comes along. God warns the child of the dangers of the water. But the child goes in anyways. The tide begins to pull the child out (Or a shark appears, jellyfish, current, etc.). Now, could anyone believe that God would be all-good if he did NOT run out and save that child?

Even from his or her own ignorance?

Just curious.

You would be a selfish and lazy m-f-er if you didn't try to save that ignorant child. And then if you said it was their own fault becuase you warned them i'd give you the benefit of the doubt of being dizzy and delusional from laying on the beach for too long without drinking water. GOD on the other hand shouldn't need water so HE doesn't have any excuse.

according to many religions- including my own- god created EVERYTHING. if you create something it becomes your responsibility. like a child, right? well god created the world wich means he created evil. if we doe evil things wich we are tempted to do before we die we might forever rot in hell constantly burning wishing for death to come but it never does, where as god killed every single person who has died in a way by dooming us with uneternal life. he also flooded the whole earth and tons of innocent babies and children died in horror screaming for life and not knowing why this was happening to them. then noah who had sinned before was the only one besides his family who got to live. on the other hand every bit of joy in our lifes also came form god...

There is a god called Abraxas, which is a Christian type god/devil in one being...its quite a fascinating concept really.