Originally posted by debbiejoGod created a place for all that should be punished for all sins and that place is called hell. Satan, a former angel who was the right hand man of God, wuz sent there for sayin he is almighty powerful than god.
But whose gonna torture the devil, isn't he supposed to be punished in the end?
I can't be ****ed to read the whole topic but as for the original post.
God created a balanced world, there can't be bad without good and there can't be good without bad.
God didn't create badness. It's us humans that choose to go that way. God doesn't want to exterminate 'bad' because he wants us humans to say 'No, I am going to be good.'.
God wants balance in the world and he wants us to choose the right path.
Note: I'm not sure if that's what you were wanting to discuss, but that's what I got from the first post. 😛
PS: I personally doubt there's a god and if there is I'm certain he or she is not the way he/she is portrayed by Christians.
Re: A thought on the idea of an all-good God...
Originally posted by Janus Marius
1. God is all-good.
2. Good is determined by being contrasted with evil.
3. Therefore, for good to be defined, evil must exist.
4. If God is all-good, then evil exists.
5. A being who is all-good would want to exterminate evil.
6. Yet evil exists.
7. Therefore, either God is not all-good or he is helpless to stop evil.
For good to exist, evil must exist.
If God is all-good, then He needs evil to exist.
Therefore, God chooses to let evil exist.
In doing so, God is not all-good.
But then, maybe evil ain't all that bad.
😎
Originally posted by Eis
I can't be ****ed to read the whole topic but as for the original post.God created a balanced world, there can't be bad without good and there can't be good without bad.
God didn't create badness. It's us humans that choose to go that way. God doesn't want to exterminate 'bad' because he wants us humans to say 'No, I am going to be good.'.God wants balance in the world and he wants us to choose the right path.
Note: I'm not sure if that's what you were wanting to discuss, but that's what I got from the first post. 😛
PS: I personally doubt there's a god and if there is I'm certain he or she is not the way he/she is portrayed by Christians.
PS certainly noted. Let's go over the idea that humans choose to go that way...
Have you heard of the term "Hard determinism"? It's basically the idea that because of the universal rule of cause and effect, all things that are in effect must have been caused. While you could haggle on and on about the idea of the first cause (Which is a fun topic in itself), if you take the approach that God exists and he is all-powerful, etc., he IS the first cause. Therefore, anything that results afterwards is because of events he put in motion in the first place, and things which reasonably- given his state- he should be able to control.
Now, with the idea of hard determinism in mind, it seemingly points out that human beings are every bit the victim to previous circumstances as is the pool ball that gets hit by the stick. The only person in this metaphysical equation who isn't a victim of circumstance is the First Mover, or First Cause- God.
So IF God exists AND he is the First Mover, THEN it stands to reason that he is ultimately responsible for everything that goes on. The idea of the "problem of choice" is removed entirely.
Originally posted by Janus Marius
PS certainly noted. Let's go over the idea that humans choose to go that way...Have you heard of the term "Hard determinism"? It's basically the idea that because of the universal rule of cause and effect, all things that are in effect must have been caused. While you could haggle on and on about the idea of the first cause (Which is a fun topic in itself), if you take the approach that God exists and he is all-powerful, etc., he IS the first cause. Therefore, anything that results afterwards is because of events he put in motion in the first place, and things which reasonably- given his state- he should be able to control.
Now, with the idea of hard determinism in mind, it seemingly points out that human beings are every bit the victim to previous circumstances as is the pool ball that gets hit by the stick. The only person in this metaphysical equation who isn't a victim of circumstance is the First Mover, or First Cause- God.
So IF God exists AND he is the First Mover, THEN it stands to reason that he is ultimately responsible for everything that goes on. The idea of the "problem of choice" is removed entirely.
Right now I can choose to go to the kitchen get a knife and kill all my family members or to do nothing. By god's law, killing is wrong. I can choose... To kill or not to kill. I choose not to.
Yes, God is the first mover and all things, good and bad (from his point of view) happen because of him but right now, I have a choice: To kill or not to kill. Sure, my ultimate decision is influenced in all my previous experiences but it doesn't mean I can't choose to do it.
God did the first move but he's far from controlling us, directly or indirectly.
Originally posted by Eis
Arachnoidfreak, this is off topic but your sigs's awesome.
Why thank you, I try. Your sig isn't bad either, before I got my image editing program, I was the biggest fan of the simplest sigs. I must admit though, I dont know who Tiesto is. A band I haven't listened to I think?
Originally posted by Eis
Look, it's quite simple.
I know. I already covered it.
Right now I can choose to go to the kitchen get a knife and kill all my family members or to do nothing. By god's law, killing is wrong. I can choose... To kill or not to kill. I choose not to.
Firstly, for someone who professes not to be of a Christian mindset, you sure apply a Christian ideal to the morality of killing. Anyways, the idea of having a choice is a delusion; what do you draw on to make that choice? The past. Everything that's ever happened to you. Events well beyond your control shaped every single thought, feeling, and action you've ever had. You are not just a personality developed in a vacuum, or in a void. If you don't realize this, you have a very long way to go.
Yes, God is the first mover and all things, good and bad (from his point of view) happen because of him but right now, I have a choice: To kill or not to kill. Sure, my ultimate decision is influenced in all my previous experiences but it doesn't mean I can't choose to do it.
Being able to choose and being uninfluenced in choice are two different concepts: the idea of choice only comes into play when there are alternatives available. But how we pick those alternatives is not just uninfluenced by our past, nor is it all under our control. Again, the human persona is dependant on a past to develop and exist. I have the choice not to post this reply. But I am. And why? Because I have an established persona, shaped by causes that predate my existance on such a scale I could never map it out in my lifetime, that compel me to see your post and disagree with it on principle. Yes, there is an alternative. But I end up choosing one. And what could make me NOT choose to reply? Another cause. Perhaps I was planning on replying but my computer died, or dinner's ready, or I get a phone call. While I could entertain the illusion that I had any real choice, whether or not I posted this reply wasn't dependant on me as being the "unmoved mover", or cause without a prior cause. That's ridiculous.
God did the first move but he's far from controlling us, directly or indirectly.
Again, you miss the point- God is the First Mover. Ergo, everything that happens is a result of his machinations. He is at fault, since he- by his very nature- must be free from the same causal obligations that we have. So, because he is the First Mover by definition, and by definition he has power over his creations, then anything that happens is his responsibility and his fault. Period.
Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Id just like to point out, before you question Gods morality, if there is a God then he would obviously have a greater grasp of morality than we do.
That violates Occam's Razor to make such a claim. Unless you can prove argumentally or empirically that morality can EXIST outside of human rational thinking, which would be akin to saying that beasts in the field operate morally along with the rocks and the vacuum in space. Saying God is "Above and beyond human morality" is attributing an unrealistic and irrational trait to God. With that mindset, you can argue (foolishly) that God is all-good, all-powerful, all-knowing, and eternal just cuz... he's God.
Random sidethought---- The term "God" does imply a supernatural creator, but even how the world is created (that it follows certain rules and has order) implies that its creator (Should there be one) would need to be similar in nature. For example, if God were without order, rules, and without form, how could he create creation that HAS these things? How could you rationally define something from nothing? While at this point you could go into a whole spiel, that becomes a totally subjective and irrational approach on the topic, and it's just spouting your opinion. So to work objectively, we work within reason. Even God, so far as we discuss him, must be reasonable or else the topic has veered in the wrong direction. / side thought.
Now, if I conclude (As do the majority of you), that creation includes elements of evil, or non-good, it stands to reason that God is responsible for it, since he created everything. And if God creates evil, God is tainted by it, and is at fault for it. After all, he created EVERYTHING. Saying that God is somehow "not at fault" for something he had hand in creating is like saying a programmer isn't at fault for incomplete or corrupt data.
That's like saying it's your great great great great grandparent's fault that you pissed in your closet once because you were too drunk to find the bathroom.
In a sense, but it goes well before his existance. Think of cause and effect as a near limitless span of dominoes that branch like veins.