Considering, that Ulic and Revan, lived amongst a time where war was a common occurence, they certainly would have been much more battle hardened. Ulic was recognised as a prodigy with a lightsaber and a strong connection to the force, he alone could take down Mace, who while arguably is a better duelist, obviously cannot best Ulic in force strength.
Revan, bested a empowered Malak (who himself defeated Kavar (logical speculation) and is described as a lightsaber prodigy) when, Revan lost most of his former knowledge, and only trained within 6 months. This alone allows us to logically assume Revan at full potential would be leagues above Yoda, thus Revan completely owning him.
By that fact, the EU powerhouses defeat the PT powerhouses.
Originally posted by IKC
And then we toss in the fact that, while blind to the Force, Ulic stalemated a pissed-off Jedi in lightsaber combat.I think he's a good deal above both Yoda and Mace. The Darksiders win.
He was pushed back by her for a long time, until eventually he just said "I won't fight" and stood there. Funny thing is he talked about Vomi about the dangers of being pushed back into a cliff just a short time earlier and there he was being pushed back to a cliff. He didn't stalemate her. And he had a lot of training with a lightsaber again after he lost his connection to the force. As nice as it is, it doesn't speak volumes for Ulic his power and I don't see how it would have put him above Mace or Yoda.. although he probably is, but we have no real prove for that. Beating Mandalore, stalemating a weaker Kun and staying alive in a fight against a Jedi do not make him the greatest lightsaber user ever...
Originally posted by Fishy
He was pushed back by her for a long time, until eventually he just said "I won't fight" and stood there. Funny thing is he talked about Vomi about the dangers of being pushed back into a cliff just a short time earlier and there he was being pushed back to a cliff. He didn't stalemate her. And he had a lot of training with a lightsaber again after he lost his connection to the force. As nice as it is, it doesn't speak volumes for Ulic his power and I don't see how it would have put him above Mace or Yoda.. although he probably is, but we have no real prove for that. Beating Mandalore, stalemating a weaker Kun and staying alive in a fight against a Jedi do not make him the greatest lightsaber user ever...
Fishy you're assuming that when IKC stated that Ulic was exceptional with a lightsaber, he did not imply that Ulic was the greatest lightsaber duelist, you are assuming that IKC's facts are biased.
Yoda, uses a style that relies heavily on the force, whilst Windu's Vaapad and precision with a lightsaber are heavily dependent on the force as well. Say they both became blinded to the force, it is unlikely they're even be able to repel an average Jedi's blow, let alone a Jedi Master.
Although what i have said is speculation and assumption as we have no proof on Windu and Yoda if they did lose their force connection, it is a rather logic reason, considering how heavily their styles depend on the force itself.
Fishy you're assuming that when IKC stated that Ulic was exceptional with a lightsaber, he did not imply that Ulic was the greatest lightsaber duelist, you are assuming that IKC's facts are biased.
I'm not assuming anything look at other threads with Ulic in them.
Yoda, uses a style that relies heavily on the force, whilst Windu's Vaapad and precision with a lightsaber are heavily dependent on the force as well. Say they both became blinded to the force, it is unlikely they're even be able to repel an average Jedi's blow, let alone a Jedi Master.
With Yoda I completely agree, however Mace? Give him a student give him time to train and fight and i'm pretty sure he could block a few attacks and run block a few attacks and run, because thats basically what Ulic did.
Although what i have said is speculation and assumption as we have no proof on Windu and Yoda if they did lose their force connection, it is a rather logic reason, considering how heavily their styles depend on the force itself.
With Yoda it is, he couldn't jump around anymore, he'd die in two seconds. With Mace its a different situation, we know people of his species (human) were able to fight against force users with weapon training sometimes even able to kill them.
Mace even if he would lose the force would still have a great control over his lightsaber less so obviously but he would still know how to use it, if he after that would start training with the weapon again he would improve quite a bit, and although he would not be as powerful as before he would more then likely be powerful enough to block a few blows and run block a few blows and run...
Originally posted by Darth_Frobo
Not superior, you can't really say that for sure, as we don't know, All we know about Revan and Ullic are accomplishments, so if we're going to compare anything it should be those. In which case Revan won two wars pretty much singlehandedly, defeated the two most powerful non-force user races of his time(mandalorians and echani) killing the leaders of both, he nearly anhilated the jedi order, anhilated the sith (for the time being atleast). ullic also defeated the leader of the mandalorians, killed many jedi and fought Kun(who made the ground shake with his presecence and defeated the most powerful masters of his time)to a draw. lets compare this to yoda, who defeated dooku(but not totally) and wasn't able to defeat sidious, they also fought in one war, which they didn't win, let alone singlehandedly, it was also a war with almost no force users outside of the jedi, Revan fought and killed many force users however. They have a small fraction of the experience in battle that revan does(this is going by what we know, please don't give me this absence of proof isnt proof of absence bs, otherwise i can say that during the clone wars 3po pimp slapped yoda and shattered his jaw and that the 100 year war was won by an army of elves. I can't prove it so i guess i'll just use a bs catch phrase so i can make things up and pretend they're facts despite the complete lack of evidence and/or logic behind them). So going by the little we know about Revan and Ullic they would appear to be stronger though as I said this is all implied, but hey it's all we know.
thats all fine and good, but when we see Yoda in AOTC/ROTS, he's already WAAAYY past his prime. I mean hell, he's in his mid 800's. And it seems that you're picking Revan when in his prime as well as Ulic. I'm not even sure if you could say Mace was in his prime, but he beat Palps until Ani came and cut his hand off. So i think that Mace and Yoda would play off each others strengths and weaknesses in both saber combat and force power. While Revan remains virtually unknown, its hard to tell even going by his accomplishments cause we don't know how those others stack up against Yoda/Mace. But Yoda was taking out plenty of 501st clones, who were based on the last Mandalorian (granted not as good as him) but Yoda does more than his fair share of ass whoopin. I think it would be an incredibly intense battle, but in the end Yoda and Mace win.
Darth Subjekt, how is Yoda past his prime? In a Jedi, force powers do not decrease with age. Yoda's extra knowledge of the force should make up for any loss in physical capability.
We also know that Revan defeated an empowered Malak on the SF. Malak was immune to all of Revan's force attacks while still able to attack Revan with the force, and Revan also defeated Malak at least 2 times before Malak died. Malak by himself would be a challenge for either Mace or Yoda. He was the top Sith out of an entire Empire of them. The fact that Revan is as far above Malak as he is means that him losing to either Mace or Yoda is VERY unlikely. I already threw in my thoughts on Ulic, maybe I'll think of some more proof for him later.
Originally posted by IKC
And then we toss in the fact that, while blind to the Force, Ulic stalemated a pissed-off Jedi in lightsaber combat.I think he's a good deal above both Yoda and Mace. The Darksiders win.
Wow, because Ulic fought someone with a saber while blind to the force, that automatically puts him above Yoda or Mace. That's some infallible logic there IKC...
How about this. If you're using that as your weak argument then we have to speculate how well Yoda, Mace, and maybe even Revan would do without the force. As fishy said Yoda wouldn't be able to hop around like a cracked out muppet, but Mace would still be able to fight without the force, so that argument obviously falls through. Or how about the fact that Ulic fighting without the force doesn't put him on any level greater than Yoda nor Mace. I would say Revan>Yoda and Mace and Ulic=Yoda, Mace. Revan would be the best of the 4 so either way I suppose the duo of Revan and Ulic win.
And then we toss in the fact that, while blind to the Force, Ulic stalemated a pissed-off Jedi in lightsaber combat.
WARNING! WARNING! WARNING! SENSORS HAVE DETECTED INACCURATE STATEMENT!
Sylvar was pwning that Qel Droma ass when Ulic said
"Yo babe, why ya gotta be like dis. Let go of yo anga sista, and embrace da lite"
Sylvar was winning, she had her lightsaber right next to Ulic's throat, and in the comics Ulic was running until he came to a dead end.
Originally posted by zod360
Ulic says something to Vima which implies it. I haven't got the comics at my disposal right now so if you could check that would be great.
He doesn't say anything like that. He does say he can not feel the force but that he can still feel the blade. Probably just means he still knows how to use it, that he can still understand how it works and how he needs to move. But it does not mean that other Jedi would have been the same way. Some jedi rely on the force less to duel then others...
Originally posted by zephiel7
WARNING! WARNING! WARNING! SENSORS HAVE DETECTED INACCURATE STATEMENT!Sylvar was pwning that Qel Droma ass when Ulic said
"Yo babe, why ya gotta be like dis. Let go of yo anga sista, and embrace da lite"Sylvar was winning, she had her lightsaber right next to Ulic's throat, and in the comics Ulic was running until he came to a dead end.
Yea something like that, except less gangsta
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
We also know that Revan defeated an empowered Malak on the SF.
The circumstances of that battle are unknown, Glentract. Even the databank states that the duel was epic, meaning long and grueling. Think Anakin and Obi-Wan.
Malak was immune to all of Revan's force attacks while still able to attack Revan with the force, and Revan also defeated Malak at least 2 times before Malak died.
Bull, Glentract. Where is it stated that Malak was immune to Revan's Force attacks? That's right; nowhere.
And what the hell do you mean he defeated Malak twice? That would imply that he floored Malak, had him by the throat, and was in a position to kill him. The cutscene, in fact, had Malak standing atop the staircase, with Revan at the bottom. Malak drained the energy from the Jedi, but he was nowhere near where Revan was, nor was he kneeling on the ground in defeat.
Malak by himself would be a challenge for either Mace or Yoda. He was the top Sith out of an entire Empire of them. The fact that Revan is as far above Malak as he is means that him losing to either Mace or Yoda is VERY unlikely. I already threw in my thoughts on Ulic, maybe I'll think of some more proof for him later.
A challenge, yes. But a superior? I doubt it. Revan, on the other hand, would likely be superior to either of them, as Malak is described as having been unstoppable when having his abilities amplified by the power of the Star Forge.
The circumstances of that battle are unknown, Glentract. Even the databank states that the duel was epic, meaning long and grueling. Think Anakin and Obi-Wan.
also meaning a lightsaber fight..
Bull, Glentract. Where is it stated that Malak was immune to Revan's Force attacks? That's right; nowhere.And what the hell do you mean he defeated Malak twice? That would imply that he floored Malak, had him by the throat, and was in a position to kill him. The cutscene, in fact, had Malak standing atop the staircase, with Revan at the bottom. Malak drained the energy from the Jedi, but he was nowhere near where Revan was, nor was he kneeling on the ground in defeat.
Not entirely true, Malak runs towards the nearest Jedi with me he was standing on the ground. But you are right it doesn't really mean anything not like he just increased his life, its likely that he couldn't defeat Revan and absorbed the power of the Jedi hoping it would give him enough extra power to defeat Revan... So it would probably be more logical to say that Revan and Malak fought, Malak was losing and then drained a Jedi to make himself more powerful not to restore his health.
A challenge, yes. But a superior? I doubt it. Revan, on the other hand, would likely be superior to either of them, as Malak is described as having been unstoppable when having his abilities amplified by the power of the Star Forge.
Where was Malak described as unstoppable?
Originally posted by Faunus
The circumstances of that battle are unknown, Glentract. Even the databank states that the duel was epic, meaning long and grueling. Think Anakin and Obi-Wan.
And we know that certain things HAVE to have happened for the game to progress.
Originally posted by Faunus
Bull, Glentract. Where is it stated that Malak was immune to Revan's Force attacks? That's right; nowhere.
Replay KOTOR. Malak is protected from Revan's force attacks when they fought.
Originally posted by Faunus
And what the hell do you mean he defeated Malak twice? That would imply that he floored Malak, had him by the throat, and was in a position to kill him. The cutscene, in fact, had Malak standing atop the staircase, with Revan at the bottom. Malak drained the energy from the Jedi, but he was nowhere near where Revan was, nor was he kneeling on the ground in defeat.
Revan has to defeat Malak at least twice on the SF for the game to progress. This isn't based on gameplay, it HAS to happen.
Originally posted by Faunus
A challenge, yes. But a superior? I doubt it. Revan, on the other hand, would likely be superior to either of them, as Malak is described as having been unstoppable when having his abilities amplified by the power of the Star Forge.
If Malak was unstoppable with the post of the SF, how would he not be superior to Yoda or Mace? I really don't see what this paragraph is going for.