ROTS Anakin vs. ESB Vader

Depends.

Anakin thinking clearly and using his rage effectively is a deadly thing. He killed Count Dooku.

But he's emotional. Hell, he was so overwhelmed by grief and stupidity on Mustafar that Obi-Wan beat him (not insulting Obi, but he got tossed around like a toy by Dooku).

And yes, the choreography was better in the PT... but Vader fights damn good in ESB... I believe there's a professional fencer behind the mask, not Prowse in that scene, and he fights pretty fast. Just because he doesn't flip around like PT characters doesn't mean he's a slow, useless, clumbsy duelist. Mace was slow too, but he has power. And strength. Vader also has incredible strength. Massive strength.

In Shadows of the Emperor it says Vader wishes he could be what he once was. Physically, anyway, but never mentally.

There's a book called shadows of the emperor? Damn I have a lot of reading to do.

Shadows of the Empire? In that book he also says he's far more powerful than his Jedi self.

Originally posted by PurpleSaber
Ok, I'm glad that you think your opinion is higher canon than GL's word. However it's not. You have no way of knowing that the fights would have been better if they remade them.

Wow, I'm glad you can read so well. Find where I said "My opinion is higher canon than GL's word." First off, that very sentence in and of itself is ignorant and shows complete lack of thought. If something is my "opinion"...its just that..MY OPINION. It doesn't mean or even remotely imply that my word is higher than GL's. I said, I think GL is full of shit and that has been agreed upon by MANY other SW fans. Back then, they made the best with what they had. Simple. You have a big seemingly uncoordinated body builder in what I'm sure is a rather uncomfortable suit, and an man well into his 60's. Of course THEY are not gonna move well. Christopher Lee cant move that well. But now they have digital imaging whereby SFX teams can mask an actors face on another's body. BUT we're NOT talking about the actors, we're talking about the CHARACTERS. You say machines are slower right? Go run along side a car, motorcycle, or even a go-cart, and see if you can even remotely keep up. Chances are you can't. Now, in time where CGI technology is not yet available, and you have the "strongest good guy" and the "baddest bad guy" and they aren't moving as fast as they should, what are you going to say? Are you going to blame yourself for not being able to find a way around that problem, or are you going to blame it on an old man and a man in a suit?

Plus, Vader isn't a man in a suit...most of his lower body is cybernetic and by sheer physics, wouldn't be hindered by the restriction of non stretch pants. If anything, if he were trying to move, I'm sure a sharp metal leg would rip through some cheap pleather pants. So its not fair to compare a half man half machine being, with the way you, as a whole (I'm assuming) human with NO divine powers that help you physically, would feel inside a Darth Vader suit.

And again, I would say that Yoda was a TAD BIT older than OB1 was in ANH.

Vader lost allmost all his speed and maneuverability, if you read one of the novels it explains it better, as for becoming more powerful in the force, lets see, force powers are derived from midichlorians in the bloods, vader lost 4 limbs and had most of his skin burnt off meaning he lost almost all of his blood, therefore he would be weaker then if he had his full midichlorian count. vader suffers hardcore losses in maneuverability and speed, he loses to luke who swings his saber like a baseball bat, that in its self says all you need to know.

that bullshit midichlorian crap is based on ratios, not numerical totals. If Anakin had 20,000 in one drop of blood, which was more than Yoda, than him as a whole would totally dominate yoda. That also means, by that logic, that ANYONE physically bigger than Yoda, would have more. And i know what the big, flanneled one said, but midichlorians arent mentioned anywhere in the real, I mean original trilogy, so i try to take that into account. But even after being cut up, he still has more mass than Yoda and would still have a ratio of over 20,000.

And btw, those were two different movies, when Luke was swinging like a crazed fan at yankee stadium on bat day. We were talking about ESB Vader.

Gl's statement was that anakin lost a large amount of power after losing his limbs,(unfortunatley i can't provide you with a source)as even if we go by ratio's, the pure amount of blood in a humans bloodstream to that in yoda's would more then compensate for any difference in the ratios, if someone has half the midichlorians in his blood that yoda does but three times the amount of blood that'd make any charachter taller then 6 foot more powerful then yoda even if they had half the midichlorians per drop yoda does, wheras if we're going by a total amount it makes more sence as it explains why people with more blood are less powerful, it's judging by their total amount, judging by ratios makes no sence at all as then the size would be a factor, which definitley doesnt work as in the words of yoda, size matters not.

yeah, so what does vader do in esb other then beat a farmboy who used his lightsaber like 4 times, once against a remote, once slashint an AT-AT and once just to stare at it, the only real use he gets was on dagobah which he fights a non moving target...what a challenge. In Rots he kills an academy full of jedi and many other jaw dropping feats, he was just much more capable without the armor, read the new book about vader, rise of a dark lord or some such, vader even admits to it.

right, but when Qui-Gon took a blood sample, it was just that...a sample. He didnt take all his blood and analyze it. Based on that one drop of blood, they were able to see that he had a count of over 20,000...more than Yoda. So how would they be able to make that determination if not by ratios?

"if we're going by a total amount it makes more sence as it explains why people with more blood are less powerful, it's judging by their total amount, judging by ratios makes no sence at all as then the size would be a factor, which definitley doesnt work as in the words of yoda, size matters not."

what? Anakin had more blood than Yoda and had more...thereby definition would be more powerful (if given the opportunity). Size matters not...youre right, if you were going by total amount, then size WOULD matter, but by ratios, it wouldn't matter. cause someone the size of a midget could have the same amount of midichlorians per blood cell as Andre the giant, and they would be equal....do you see what i mean? So ratios are the way to go and does make more sense that way.

ROTS Anakin = 100% Force potential + fiercer and more agile but dumber.

TEBS Darth Vader = 80% (at most) Force potential + smarter but slower.

You do the math.

well they always say, "slow and steady wins the race." And what good is being fast and fierce if you don't know how to work with what you got?

Since Rex closed the other thread, I'd like to tell Glentract that I'm happy the Star Wars chronology said that. However GL said in one of his interviews, that he left that Plagueis thing specifically to the imagination of people at first, and then stated that nobody created Anakin except the force. So keep your personal attacks to yourself.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
right, but when Qui-Gon took a blood sample, it was just that...a sample. He didnt take all his blood and analyze it. Based on that one drop of blood, they were able to see that he had a count of over 20,000...more than Yoda. So how would they be able to make that determination if not by ratios?

"if we're going by a total amount it makes more sence as it explains why people with more blood are less powerful, it's judging by their total amount, judging by ratios makes no sence at all as then the size would be a factor, which definitley doesnt work as in the words of yoda, size matters not."

what? Anakin had more blood than Yoda and had more...thereby definition would be more powerful (if given the opportunity). Size matters not...youre right, if you were going by total amount, then size WOULD matter, but by ratios, it wouldn't matter. cause someone the size of a midget could have the same amount of midichlorians per blood cell as Andre the giant, and they would be equal....do you see what i mean? So ratios are the way to go and does make more sense that way.

OMG, so they could never make extrapolations for a whole based upon an SRS!

Someone never took statistics and is speaking out of ignorance. If it were a ratio, it would be 20000 midi chlorians per [insert unit of volume or measurement here].

It's 20000 midichlorians, that's what's meantioned.

Originally posted by kamikz
Dooku had not been studying politics all the time, he was Sidious apprentice, he had studied the dark side. And Sidious did not have much time either still he was able to overcome the greatest jedi in the order. Obi-Wan did not studie much at all, he did not want any attention from the Empire, and he might have known that they could have sensed him. Since we don't know it's hard to say, but Obi-Wan was in exile and was hiding from the Empire AND was weaker as we saw in the movie, so it is much more likley that he didn't practise much lightsaber fighting or new froce powers.

Except for the fact that you have no idea how long Sidious studied the dark side, but he did it enough that the dark side energies destroyed his flesh. And yes, he overcame Yoda from pure luck, and being bigger. He overcame Mace because of Anakin. And if Obi Wan didn't study, how did he learn how to become 1 with the force? IF you recall in part 3, Yoda said Obiwan had some studying to do during his isolation. There is NO proof that he was weaker. Actually it's proven that he was stronger as he was able to use mind trick we've never seen him use before, and Vader couldn't put him down until Obiwan let him.

Originally posted by Illustrious
OMG, so they could never make extrapolations for a whole based upon an SRS!

Someone never took statistics and is speaking out of ignorance. If it were a ratio, it would be 20000 midi chlorians per [insert unit of volume or measurement here].

It's 20000 midichlorians, that's what's meantioned.

Who never took statistics? And by basic logic, it would appear that they were using a ratio. How would you project a full body amount if you didn't have the full mass of the subject? You would need his height, weight, stuff like that in order to come to that conclusion. Just a simple blood test can't give you all that information, and Qui-Gon didn't tell him. OB1 pulled up over 20,000 by a sample, so there would have to be that much in that amount of blood. Am I saying it wrong to where I'm not being understood? Seriously. I understand you can extrapolate, but you need more variables to make that an accurate estimation. Whatever, it doesn't even matter, it's not worth arguing about. And I'm not conceding, just don't want to argue about something that's not that important. We all have our own opinions and we can do so until (and i hate to say this) an "official" answer on whether or not its total or ratio. And yes I know, GL said that once cut and burnt he lost power, but that doesn't answer the question at hand.

Darth Subjekt, I agree wholeheartedly with you. Frobo and some others are making no sense. Frobo, do you think that when Anakin was hacked apart the midichlorians swam out into the lava and just left blood with a lower ratio of midichlorians? No. Complete nonsense.

Meh, I used to think Anakin wins, until I heard the ANH AC.

Apparently, it's:

Palpatine > Vader = Obi-Wan > Yoda > whatever

Yep, GL says Obi-Wan is the strongest good guy.

Huh