Originally posted by BloodRain
I'd say its more difficult to gauge the skill level of fast/strong characters.
Nonsense.
Bleach for example. We know they're highly skilled with a blade, thousands of years worth of experience, yet it doesn't seem so when their fighting.
Also nonsense. Kubo made it explicitly clear that excessive blocking and defending is bad, you strike to kill your opponent, not to block their weapon, which is a real trait of IRL swordplay.
Although its not /really/ them, Sora managed to wear down Squall about 15 mins after first getting the Keyblade.
Did Squall not go easy on him?
He had no speed or strength as of yet.
He went from beating up children with wooden swords to beating up thirty foot tall shadow monsters.
Of course he had superhuman abilities then.
Also Sephiroth compliments Sora on his skill, and he's listed in-game as an unsurpassed/greatest of swordsmen.
Sephiroth is an unsurpassed swordsman the same way Hulk is unsurpassed in a hand to hand fight. Because of their excessive power.
I also don't recall Sephiroth complimenting his skill per say.
Roxas also looks quite skilled.
"Skilled" in the way all weaboo action heroes like Dante are skilled. Which is to say that their fighting style is largely complete garbage, but they get away with it due to superhuman attributes and fiction.
But hey, I may just be being overtly critical of fiction due to my own IRL knowledge of swordplay.
Edit: Actually, the reason he may not look skilled or tactful is /because/ he has the use speed and strength to his advantage.
This argument is complete nonsense.
"Well uh he just doesn't fight with skill because he is so powerful he can afford not to."
That is exactly my point. Sora fights like a brute wielding a bat because he never had to be anything else due to his speed and strength, hence, he has not shown skillful swordplay. The same way the Hulk is dominating in a hand to hand fight, despite being an unskilled brute in most incarnations. Them excelling in those areas do not make them skilled.
Besides, what you said describes their chosen style more than their skill.
"Swings his keyblade like a baseball bat while leaving himself open and making wasted movements" is not an effective fighting style to choose. He would lose nothing from being actually decent in swordplay, and would in fact become more powaful.
Their skill would come from their training and/or which skilled people they have beaten. Neither have any formal training (besides being taught a move) and have both beaten swordsmen (Leon and Seph for Sora, and Knights for Link), so there isn't much to say who has the higher skill.
Link in WW was trained personally by Orca. A swordsman. Link in TP was trained by that swordsman dude whose name I don't remember. Link in SS only, you know, trained to use a sword under knights, so that he could become a knight, serving as a sort of military cadet. So Link does, in fact, have formal training.
I can easily say Link is more skilled because I can look at Sora and see how unskilled he is.
I agree that in terms of skill, Link would be superior. Mostly because it would be near impossible to master a weapon like the keyblade, which with each different key chain drastically changes size, shape, composition and (I'm assuming) weight. Sora would have to pick a single chain to use 24/7, and practice with that, or else it would take him a lifetime to be an effective bladesman. Even, then, he might not get much 'skill' out of training.
Take BBS, for example.
Terra, Aqua and Ven all had years of training under an official master, and yet they swing around all crazy too.
That's my two cents
Fun fact - Have you noticed Sora is the only character in the series who uses the keyblade with a two-hand grip? EVERY other character only uses one hand, even Terra, who has more of a key-axe than a keyblade. 😛
Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
Isn't the skill kind of a mute point. I mean if you put bruce lee up against hulk. Hulk wins.
But if you put batman up against the hulk...
Batman can't beat Killer Croc in a fistfight most of the time.
He would be NOTHING in a fight with Hulk.
In DC and Marvel, skilled humans can't compete with high level bricks.
Unless you're Karate Kid.
Originally posted by NemeBro
Nonsense.Also nonsense. Kubo made it explicitly clear that excessive blocking and defending is bad, you strike to kill your opponent, not to block their weapon, which is a real trait of IRL swordplay.
Then can list the examples of Naruto and DBZ for martial arts that stop looking as skilled and more hit harder and faster. Closer to KH is FF7, mainly AC. They're highly skilled swordsmen but their fight was less 'wax on wax off' as their skill level would suggest.
Did Squall not go easy on him?
He went from beating up children with wooden swords to beating up thirty foot tall shadow monsters.Of course he had superhuman abilities then.
Squall's also superhuman. And if his stats are even close to Sora's at this stage, which they most likely are, Sora must of had some skill to be able to compete with Squall.
Sephiroth is an unsurpassed swordsman the same way Hulk is unsurpassed in a hand to hand fight. Because of their excessive power.I also don't recall Sephiroth complimenting his skill per say.
So 20+ years of military-like training with a sword means nothing for skill?
"I admit you're very skilled..."
"Skilled" in the way all weaboo action heroes like Dante are skilled. Which is to say that their fighting style is largely complete garbage, but they get away with it due to superhuman attributes and fiction.But hey, I may just be being overtly critical of fiction due to my own IRL knowledge of swordplay.
[Dante beat a swordsmen that trained for 2000 years using equal strength and speed = skill]
So with that IRL knowledge of swordplay you should notice that Link's straightforward and precise style are more due to being very basic. See the hidden skills, besides some Peak movements theres nothing any of us cant do right now with no real sword skill. So how does this make him skilled?
This argument is complete nonsense."Well uh he just doesn't fight with skill because he is so powerful he can afford not to."
That is exactly my point. Sora fights like a brute wielding a bat because he never had to be anything else due to his speed and strength, hence, he has not shown skillful swordplay. The same way the Hulk is dominating in a hand to hand fight, despite being an unskilled brute in most incarnations. Them excelling in those areas do not make them skilled.
Whole point negated by the fact that I said 'may not /look/ skilled', I never said he doesn't fight with skill. What I am saying is that some of the the traditional IRL swordskills you're looking for may be completely useless on the superhuman level. That doesn't mean Sora doesn't have competent sword skills.
"Swings his keyblade like a baseball bat while leaving himself open and making wasted movements" is not an effective fighting style to choose. He would lose nothing from being actually decent in swordplay, and would in fact become more powaful.
You say he's swinging like a he has a bat, I say his swordplay is reminiscent of other FF characters who have trained for 10-20+ years.
Link in WW was trained personally by Orca. A swordsman. Link in TP was trained by that swordsman dude whose name I don't remember. Link in SS only, you know, trained to use a sword under knights, so that he could become a knight, serving as a sort of military cadet. So Link does, in fact, have formal training.I can easily say Link is more skilled because I can look at Sora and see how unskilled he is.
"Terra, Aqua and Ven all had years of training under an official master, and yet they swing around all crazy too." ~MadMel.
Yeah, some Link's have either a few years of training [just SS iirc] while others have been taught the basics with a few moves.
Sora has beaten swordsmen that have trained for much longer, and yes while being at their strength and speed level. Besides the 3 from FF, theres Xaldin, Lexaeus and Xemnas. Former two were knights, with Lexaeus being on the level of Riku while having reactions at Riku's speed and strength far above it. Some skill must have been necessary.
Xemnas being the Nobody of Terra and Xehanort, two masters, would have been nothing less than highly skilled with his stats already on par with Sora. Sora beats him one-on-one.
Equally I can see how Link is unskilled as his whole move pool consists of only a basic slash and a his top, signature move of spinning around in a circle.
Originally posted by BloodRain
Then can list the examples of Naruto and DBZ for martial arts that stop looking as skilled and more hit harder and faster. Closer to KH is FF7, mainly AC. They're highly skilled swordsmen but their fight was less 'wax on wax off' as their skill level would suggest.
A, the Raikage, just punches people and uses wrestling moves. Yes, his speed and strength certainly help, but there is nothing particularly unskilled about his fighting style either. What Gai and Lee do is bullshit, yeah, they rely only on their speed to get away with that.
As for DBZ? Everyone mostly just punches and kicks the shit out of eachother. In IRL martial arts, that is mostly what fighting amounts to. Punching the shit out of people. I can't recall anything other than a few overheaded two-handed hammer blows to really make me consider Goku and friends unskilled.
But you're detracting from the point. Not only does Sora never really demonstrate skilled swordplay, he is never actually said to be a particularly skilled swordsman. The absence of evidence leads me to believe that he is simply not much of a swordsman.
He said he did, but Yuffie and the fact that he was brought to a knee says otherwise.
Sora got in more hits than he would have were Squall serious. Considering you can later fight a serious Squall, who is more powerful/difficult, he clearly was not going all out originally.
Oh yeah, superhuman, but nowhere near the hypersonic building thrower he is now. Like how the trio only beat Cerberus cos Herc wore it down or how being worn down in a fight with Sabor and even being unable to block its slash.Squall's also superhuman. And if his stats are even close to Sora's at this stage, which they most likely are, Sora must of had some skill to be able to compete with Squall.
Once more, he went easy on him. Beyond that, we have no idea how Leon's power compares with Sora's. Keep in mind the supernatural power of the Keyblade, it does more damage with a cut going at a certain speed than any mundane blade, like Squall's, would do.
So 20+ years of military-like training with a sword means nothing for skill?"I admit you're very skilled..."
Oh sure, he is reasonably skilled, but the reason he is the strongest swordsman has very little to do with him being a skilled swordsman.
He doesn't specify that he is a skilled swordsman. 131
Keep in mind that I am not denying that Sora is a pretty smart/skilled fighter, but his actual swordplay is nothing to write home about.
[Dante beat a swordsmen that trained for 2000 years using equal strength and speed = skill]
Naw man.
So with that IRL knowledge of swordplay you should notice that Link's straightforward and precise style are more due to being very basic. See the hidden skills, besides some Peak movements theres nothing any of us cant do right now with no real sword skill. So how does this make him skilled?
Your link sucked.
http://zelda.wikia.com/wiki/Hidden_Skills
Try this one.
Lol. "Basic". In German Longsword style there are five Master Strikes. All of which are basic enough that they can be done by laymen if they know what they are, which is to say, the movements can be done. Applying something you know in combat is a different matter. Link's style is basic because the basics are effective.
The Ending Blow is an attack that is very risky, for reasons the entry I provide states, which is why training would be needed to make it effective.
Bashing with a shield is something any idiot can do sure, but being able to reliably break guards and harmlessly deflect projectiles? Lolno.
The Back Slice is so incredibly risky that the move seems silly, but Link can clearly make it work, and admittedly it helps that most of Link's foes are much larger than him.
Sort of the same with the Helm Splitter, which is would require both skill and acrobatics to pull off, and Link's foes being so big makes it simpler.
The Mortal Draw requires Link to use Iaijutsu with a longsword. Son that's hard.
Jump Strike is pure fantasy, obviously.
As is Great Spin. Both require superhuman abilities.
But the difference between Link and Sora is that Link demonstrates sword skill, as well as being explicitly noted to be a trained/skilled swordsman.
Whole point negated by the fact that I said 'may not /look/ skilled', I never said he doesn't fight with skill. What I am saying is that some of the the traditional IRL swordskills you're looking for may be completely useless on the superhuman level. That doesn't mean Sora doesn't have competent sword skills.
Nonsense.
IRL swordskills being completely useless? "Yo dawg now that we're so strong and fast we should fight while leaving ourselves open and making wasted movements this is way better than the proper swordplay we were using before bwah". That's ****ing stupid. Sora would only have something to gain if he started wielding his Keyblade like, you know, a blade.
You say he's swinging like a he has a bat, I say his swordplay is reminiscent of other FF characters who have trained for 10-20+ years.
First of all, stop using AC as an example. Weaboo fightan majik is not demonstrative of actual swordplay. Beyond that, uh, when? I can think of only a few occasions, Sora matching blades with Sephiroth, cutting the heads from the Hydra, that's mostly it. Usually he just swings it like a bat that cuts.
"Terra, Aqua and Ven all had years of training under an official master, and yet they swing around all crazy too." ~MadMel.
I find it hilarious that you quote MadMel to support your argument, when his own argument was that Sora is not skilled, albeit due to the awkwardness of his weapon, which may be true.
Yeah, some Link's have either a few years of training [just SS iirc] while others have been taught the basics with a few moves.
Glad you agree.
Sora has beaten swordsmen that have trained for much longer, and yes while being at their strength and speed level. Besides the 3 from FF, theres Xaldin, Lexaeus and Xemnas. Former two were knights, with Lexaeus being on the level of Riku while having reactions at Riku's speed and strength far above it. Some skill must have been necessary.
Xemnas being the Nobody of Terra and Xehanort, two masters, would have been nothing less than highly skilled with his stats already on par with Sora. Sora beats him one-on-one.
Ganondorf is older than every single swordsman Sora has ever been in the same room with, and has been a trained swordsman with experience for hundreds to thousands of years, trained by the Gerudo as their king.
Sora is a good fighter. Let me make that clear. He is not, however, a particularly good swordsman. Like how Spiderman, while not being particularly skilled in a fistfight, is still a clever and intelligent fighter.
Equally I can see how Link is unskilled as his whole move pool consists of only a basic slash and a his top, signature move of spinning around in a circle.
He slashes from various angles and stabs. That is basically all you can really do with the blade of a sword, other than advanced moves like Mordhau that nobody even knows about, and even then Link can't do many of the more advanced moves due to them requiring two hands on his longsword.
As for spinning in a circle, yes, not really skilled, but he gets away with it due to power. Difference between Sora and Link is that Link has actual basis for skilled swordplay.
A, the Raikage, just punches people and uses wrestling moves. Yes, his speed and strength certainly help, but there is nothing particularly unskilled about his fighting style either. What Gai and Lee do is bullshit, yeah, they rely only on their speed to get away with that.As for DBZ? Everyone mostly just punches and kicks the shit out of eachother. In IRL martial arts, that is mostly what fighting amounts to. Punching the shit out of people. I can't recall anything other than a few overheaded two-handed hammer blows to really make me consider Goku and friends unskilled.
But you're detracting from the point. Not only does Sora never really demonstrate skilled swordplay, he is never actually said to be a particularly skilled swordsman. The absence of evidence leads me to believe that he is simply not much of a swordsman.
This parts only to cover Sora not outwardly showing the skills you're looking for.
Sora got in more hits than he would have were Squall serious. Considering you can later fight a serious Squall, who is more powerful/difficult, he clearly was not going all out originally.Once more, he went easy on him. Beyond that, we have no idea how Leon's power compares with Sora's. Keep in mind the supernatural power of the Keyblade, it does more damage with a cut going at a certain speed than any mundane blade, like Squall's, would do.
Likewise we don't know Sora's power for Squall's to compare to. What we know is that Squall is a competent fighter in this verse, and that that Sora < Normal Sora < KH2 Sora. If Squall is even close to his FF8 stats then he'd be at or above that Sora's. The only thing we can assume is from what we saw; Squall beat Sora so he's above him. To wear him down, full power or not, shows skill.
Sora at that time had no strength or speed feats, the only thing he has was his skill.
The 'more damage' thing is something that happens alot in FF.
Oh sure, he is reasonably skilled, but the reason he is the strongest swordsman has very little to do with him being a skilled swordsman.He doesn't specify that he is a skilled swordsman.
Keep in mind that I am not denying that Sora is a pretty smart/skilled fighter, but his actual swordplay is nothing to write home about.
IIRC swordskills is all Seph did until FF7, everything he was renown for before that was from his skill. Not his stat level, cos people like Genesis and Angeal could match his strength and speed.
He doesnt /not/ specify it.... shaddap.
Sephiroth wouldn't compliment Sora if all he did was fight like a strong drunk. If he's the greatest swordsman in his verse, than in his verse the style of fighting like that used by Cloud and the rest is considered the best combat style. Sora embraces this style, and while it may not seem that practical irl, in-verse its obviously effective.
Naw man.
Lol. "Basic". In German Longsword style there are five Master Strikes. All of which are basic enough that they can be done by laymen if they know what they are, which is to say, the movements can be done. Applying something you know in combat is a different matter. Link's style is basic because the basics are effective.[List]
But the difference between Link and Sora is that Link demonstrates sword skill, as well as being explicitly noted to be a trained/skilled swordsman.
>__> Merde.
Thats like saying any guy that can win a fight is skilled because anyone can throw a fist, but it takes more to apply to to combat. Link using the basics doesn't say he's skilled.
Besides derping and stabbing the ground, whats risky about stabbing a downed enemy?
Yeah, from a guy with superhuman strength stunning and knocking back a projectile would be simple.
Rolling round a stationary enemy. Its speed and poor enemies, not skill that makes this work. Even says its impossible to do against foes that can keep up in the Helm Splitter description.
This would actually be his best skill shower, were it not for the fact that Link can only do so when the foe is already stunned. "If the foe is stunned, can't move or counter, I can flip over their head and cut their face." Sounds like wasted movement to me.
Most skillful move yes, but only works with inhuman speed. I'd wonder the effectiveness of a back scabbard quick-draw on an opponent who can keep up.
And its as you said for the last two. So Link's best showing of skill is from three moves; rolling round a slow enemy, flipping over the head of a stunned enemy and a move based on inhuman speed. Of these 7 skills that are on the top of Link's list, 3 require him to have strength above the foe with the other 4 needing Link to out-speed/out-maneuver them. Pretty much what you said about Sora throwing his speed and strength around. He has basic moves and irl impractical ones. Demonstration doesn't seem that off between them.
Unless they say he's skilled like how Sephiroth says Sora is :V
Nonsense.IRL swordskills being completely useless? "Yo dawg now that we're so strong and fast we should fight while leaving ourselves open and making wasted movements this is way better than the proper swordplay we were using before bwah". That's ****ing stupid. Sora would only have something to gain if he started wielding his Keyblade like, you know, a blade.
First of all, stop using AC as an example. Weaboo fightan majik is not demonstrative of actual swordplay. Beyond that, uh, when? I can think of only a few occasions, Sora matching blades with Sephiroth, cutting the heads from the Hydra, that's mostly it. Usually he just swings it like a bat that cuts.
And cutting through the buildings and countering Xemnas' duel beam swords in close combat.
So what you're saying is that if he chooses, Sora is able to show non-bat sword skills?... Does that not mean that his technique is situation?
I find it hilarious that you quote MadMel to support your argument, when his own argument was that Sora is not skilled, albeit due to the awkwardness of his weapon, which may be true.
Glad you agree.
Ganondorf is older than every single swordsman Sora has ever been in the same room with, and has been a trained swordsman with experience for hundreds to thousands of years, trained by the Gerudo as their king.Sora is a good fighter. Let me make that clear. He is not, however, a particularly good swordsman. Like how Spiderman, while not being particularly skilled in a fistfight, is still a clever and intelligent fighter
Though you've admitted that Sora can and will used more refined skills when the job calls for it. The only way Sora (and Riku) can beat opponents of equal stats who are highly skilled is by being as skilled or being smart. Now they may be smart enough to get the upper hand on most foes, but how do you suppose they use their brains against trained ones? How smart would SumGai have to be to beat a martial artist in a fight with his brain?
They can have a high level of skill or they have an incredibly high combat intellect.
He slashes from various angles and stabs. That is basically all you can really do with the blade of a sword, other than advanced moves like Mordhau that nobody even knows about, and even then Link can't do many of the more advanced moves due to them requiring two hands on his longsword.As for spinning in a circle, yes, not really skilled, but he gets away with it due to power. Difference between Sora and Link is that Link has actual basis for skilled swordplay.
Link's basis is one-on-one, Sora's basis is hordes at a time so yeah most of his moves will be wider. Something even Link does. The main use for his Spin attack is crowd control after all.
When Link needs to attack several enemies his moves get more wild. When Sora needs to attack a single enemy his moves get more precise/focused.
F*ck you guys, and your arguement... you realize that Sora has beaten multiple "skilled swordsmen" in KH, kh2, and all of the other knockoffs, right? Wouldn't that mean that he's developed some skills during his fights?... He wouldn't have been able to otherwise. Sora would rape face if he was matched up in a fight with Link. xP