Sora(Kingdom Hearts) vs Link(Legend of Zelda)

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
No, it isn't 'a whole other level of fighting'. Sora can fly, so he flies while he fights, his fighting is needlessly flashy and over the top, that does not make him a better fighter relative to anyone else, and it has nothing to do with combat prowess above Sora can fly, a superhuman attribute.

I suppose it depends on what you mean by "better fighter". If that means "Knows more legitimate martial arts moves" then you may have a point. That isn't how I was using it, and it isn't how it should be used.

And limiting Sora's abilities to flight is down playing his skills significantly. It's more than just flight and a jedi's abilities reach more than simply having a sword that can cut armor. The fact that you actually consider a samurai and a jedi on the same fighting level except for the weapon shows you are purposely ignoring the outrageously apparent difference in ability.

I mean, I'm actually having a hard time thinking of ways to properly explain it. It's like you're trying to tell me the grass is red and I can't really say anything other than "No it isn't... Look at it."

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Sora with no super powers other than flight, unarmed, fist fight v.s. Batman, who wins?

What do you mean "No other super powers". You mean Sora fighting like a normal person vs Batman? Sure. Batman. But notice that you have to turn Sora into a normal human in order to have Batman stand a chance. The same is true of Link.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Wolverine with no healing factor, Sora with nothing but flight, sword v.s. keyblade, who wins?

Once again, if you mean "make Sora a regular guy except for flight" I would give it to Wolverine. Just like I would give it to Wolverine if you took a Jedi and made him a regular guy. Normally, he isn't, though, and normally Sora isn't, either.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
The point of including Hulk is that Hulk is a brawler who would completely crush Sora despite not fighting in a manner that's flashy.

Because he's invincible. He'd get blasted to mush if Sora's attacks could actually do damage.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
The different between a Jedi's fighting capability and a Samurai's is that unlike the Samurai, a Jedi's weapon actually can cut through armour.

Um............... No.

The difference between a Jedi and a Samurai is that a Jedi can block lazers, run up walls, and leap like Spiderman, and can block and counter attacks from all directions in a way that is only possible in movies. A samurai can.... Swing his sword.

Give a Jedi a Samurai sword and he would still win. Really really easily.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Things that you should argue for:
Sora wins because (feats of destruction/speed)

And there are plenty of those, to be sure. I simply don't think they even need to be brought up in a fight like this. All you really have to do is look at the two characters and how they fight and the victor is pretty obvious.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Thngs you should not argue for:
Sora wins because he fights like a cartoon character.

Actually, that's an astoundingly good argument to use IF the opponent DOESN'T.

Here's the thing. You know all those fights you see in movie and games? You realize that they are completely impossible in real life, right? The one guy who takes out an entire room of thugs by himself? It would simply never happen.

That's the thing about movies or cartoons. The characters do things regular people could never dream of doing. They are created to be better than normal people. So obviously, they are better than normal people.

Sora fights like an action cartoon made to be significantly better than a normal person.

Link fights like a normal person.

Sora wins.

Quan just logged off, I'll take my crack at your more verbose brand of wrong for the time being.

And limiting Sora's abilities to flight is down playing his skills significantly. It's more than just flight and a jedi's abilities reach more than simply having a sword that can cut armor. The fact that you actually consider a samurai and a jedi on the same fighting level except for the weapon shows you are purposely ignoring the outrageously apparent difference in ability.

If we factor in all of a Jedi's other abilities, like, you know, force pushes and such, yeah, that gives them advantages in combat, but simply saying "Jedi are better than people who don't fight in such a flashy way" is blatantly and inconceivably wrong.

What do you mean "No other super powers". You mean Sora fighting like a normal person vs Batman? Sure. Batman. But notice that you have to turn Sora into a normal human in order to have Batman stand a chance. The same is true of Link.

Actually, that's an astoundingly good argument to use IF the opponent DOESN'T.

Here's the thing. You know all those fights you see in movie and games? You realize that they are completely impossible in real life, right? The one guy who takes out an entire room of thugs by himself? It would simply never happen.

That's the thing about movies or cartoons. The characters do things regular people could never dream of doing. They are created to be better than normal people. So obviously, they are better than normal people.

Oh, you mean things like fighting giant monsters, overpowering super strong stone giants, soloing armies, travelling through time, fighting through trapped and haunted temples guarded by the afore mentioned giant monsters, chucking around hundreds of tons, freezing volcanoes, ending eternal blizzards, killing immortals, and saving the world? That kind of thing that people in fiction do that shows they are better than people in real life? I think I know the stuff you mean.

Sora fights like an action cartoon made to be significantly better than a normal person.

Link fights like a normal person.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Quan just logged off, I'll take my crack at your more verbose brand of wrong for the time being.

Why thank you.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
This isn't what I said at all. You came into a discussion about practical v.s. flashy fighting, and claimed the because Sora fights like an over the top anime character, he wins. This is a non-argument. We're not talking about people's exotic powers here and if you want to have that discussion then you're moving the goal posts. But whatever.

If we factor in all of a Jedi's other abilities, like, you know, force pushes and such, yeah, that gives them advantages in combat, but simply saying "Jedi are better than people who don't fight in such a flashy way" is blatantly and inconceivably wrong.

I ever once said that flashier fighting is better than normal fighting. That's what you seem to keep thinking I'm saying. My whole point is that over the top action characters like Sora are doing more than simply "fighting flashy". It takes super human abilities to fight the way they do, and I'm not talking about flying or jumping. Take all their jumping and flying and super strength powers away, but leave intact their fighting style. Now find the very best swords man in the world and see if he can fight like they can. He can't. They do more than just fly and look cool. It take abilities far above that of a normal person simply to be able to block, parry and strike with the speed and accuracy they can. It isn't humanly possible.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Normal humans don't fly. My point was that Sora is not an inherently more powerful character because of the way he fights and that's a terrible line of reasoning. Sora is more powerful than Batman, but not because of how he fights, it's because he is greater than Batman independent of that, he is stronger, faster, and has exotic abilities. He can have those without fighting like an 'over the top anime character'.

True, you can have stronger faster super human abilities without fighting like an over the top anime character, but you can't fight like an over the top anime character without being stronger faster and super human.

So, as I've been saying, fighting like an over the top anime character automatically puts you above a human because it demands that you be super human to do it.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
No, it isn't. In this case it amounts to "Sora is more mobile". The more mobile character does not automatically win.

As I said above, it amounts to much more than that.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Oh, you mean things like fighting giant monsters, overpowering super strong stone giants, soloing armies, travelling through time, fighting through trapped and haunted temples guarded by the afore mentioned giant monsters, chucking around hundreds of tons, freezing volcanoes, ending eternal blizzards, killing immortals, and saving the world? That kind of thing that people in fiction do that shows they are better than people in real life? I think I know the stuff you mean.

Those are all impressive feats, but we were talking about fighting style and ability, not past accomplishments. Link did all those things with the fighting style of a regular human.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Lol. No. Sora flies, and uses that while he fights, Link remains grounded, but he is no less exceptional.

In fact, I would say his fighting style is significantly less exceptional. He swings his sword with the speed and style of a regular person. Hell, I, right now, could pick up a sword or stick and fight like Link. No one could pick up a sword or stick and fight like Sora, even minus the ability to run up walls and fly.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Even though its clear Z Goku is more skilled, watching DB Goku appears more 'martial arts' in skill. The stronger, faster and more zipping movement they get the less it looks like martial arts.

Anyhow, what makes Link more skilled than Sora?

Stop evading the point you ****ing cowardly milk-drinker.

What did DB Goku do specifically to make him appear more skilled than Z Goku?

The fact that he doesn't swing his sword like a baseball bat. Sora over-exerts on almost every swing, all of them are wide, wasting time and energy. He only gets by because he is powerful enough to do so.

Originally posted by TacDavey

In fact, I would say his fighting style is significantly less exceptional. He swings his sword with the speed and style of a regular person. Hell, I, right now, could pick up a sword or stick and fight like Link. No one could pick up a sword or stick and fight like Sora, even minus the ability to run up walls and fly.

Luckily for Sora, he never fights skilled opponents that are on his level.

Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
Gorons are not slow. Especially with the inverted song of time. Don't forget his unditectability, his undead army, and his godhood.

Originally posted by DemonicBounty
From what I recall, the Ocarinas time magic is specific to Termina due to a time goddess aiding. I may be wrong though.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
The goddess of time is mentioned by Zelda before Link ever leaves Hyrule.

Which shows that even if she is the source of the time power (never said) she is not specific to Termina. It's really just an expansion of the control over time the Hero of Time already had. shrug

Transdimensional time goddess? Sweet.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Stop evading the point you ****ing cowardly milk-drinker.

What did DB Goku do specifically to make him appear more skilled than Z Goku?

The fact that he doesn't swing his sword like a baseball bat. Sora over-exerts on almost every swing, all of them are wide, wasting time and energy. He only gets by because he is powerful enough to do so.

His style of combat. Back then it was a mix of fighting technique and power/speed, sometimes a one off blasts and flight. Z added constant blasts and flight. It begun focusing more that and power/speed over technique.

Link not showing any notable skill makes him more skilled? The only things the most skilled looking Link (TP) can do that I, with my lack of proper sword training, can't is the few that require flipping over peoples heads. Tell Sora not to flip around and he'd be able to replicate anything Link has.
Sora does what he does because he can and its effective, on monsters and skilled characters. Effective enough to combat swarms while being direct enough to take down a single foe.

Expansion of what? The only time that Link used time prior to Termina was in the Temple of Time itself and only to go through two points. The ocarina never used that power, despite having that same song.

The visuals of one's fighting patterns are not anywhere near as important as the time frames.

So saying 'over the top' anime fighting is bullsh*t reasoning.

That said, Sora wins. Not because of some visual style to his fights, but because his stats are better overall.

If stats were equal though, Link would win. Sora fights with wasted maneuvers that aren't practical at all. He can get away with it because he's more than fast enough, and those that are near him speed wise fight with an equally wasted, impractical fighting style.

Think about it, backflips are slow manuevers that leave you vulnerable, while Sora is doing a backflip--which won't take him any further back than Link would be going forward from just taking brisk steps in the same time frame--would mean while Sora is recomposing himself while he's back on his feet, he could get easily stabbed. Or even stabbed in the spine mid flip.

Originally posted by BloodRain
His style of combat. Back then it was a mix of fighting technique and power/speed, sometimes a one off blasts and flight. Z added constant blasts and flight. It begun focusing more that and power/speed over technique.

The blasts and flight were added to their arsenal, they did not lose their punchiness and shit. Though their demonstrations of skill are often garbage as well.

The only things the most skilled looking Link (TP) can do that I, with my lack of proper sword training, can't

I can literally only think of one instance of Sora doing a backflip in a fight. You can't even do that in normal gameplay(as opposed to someone else I know). Maybe my memory is just shit or something.

Unless one counts aerial recovery which is a backflip in midair after being knocked up into the air. Setting aside the fact that being knocked into the air like this would leave you fawked no matter what, doing a backflip is actually using the force of the blow to position yourself so you can see the bad guy.

Mind you Link may very well be more skilled. I wouldn't know because no one is showing me why I should think it. Mind you I still don't know which Link this is so I can't exactly look anything up.

Originally posted by NemeBro
The blasts and flight were added to their arsenal, they did not lose their punchiness and shit. Though their demonstrations of skill are often garbage as well.
You can't do anything he does.

I can't do a sword thrust or a basic slash in combination. Cause thats all Link shows us.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
If stats were equal though, Link would win. Sora fights with wasted maneuvers that aren't practical at all. He can get away with it because he's more than fast enough, and those that are near him speed wise fight with an equally wasted, impractical fighting style.

Think about it, backflips are slow manuevers that leave you vulnerable, while Sora is doing a backflip--which won't take him any further back than Link would be going forward from just taking brisk steps in the same time frame--would mean while Sora is recomposing himself while he's back on his feet, he could get easily stabbed. Or even stabbed in the spine mid flip.

These are overall the best techs in his movepool.. wasted manoeuvres?

Originally posted by NemeBro
That is because he is stronger and faster than any normal human, which makes fighting like that suicidal when fighting people on your level.

Which he does constantly, and wins. Have you played the games?

Also, this is irrelevant to my point, anyway. You didn't deny the fact that Sora fights in a way no normal human can. Link fights like a normal person.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Luckily for Sora, he never fights skilled opponents that are on his level.

Once again, have you played the games? Almost everyone he fights is in his power range if not above, and they are all very skilled.

Thinking about it now, I would like to retract my statement about the ocarina not having time powers in Hyrule. The sun song pretty much nullifies that claim.

Just like how Sora nullifies Link with Magnet :T

I must admit I am unfamiliar with Link's abilities. However when it comes to Sora in KH2 I can vouch for him very well.

I think Sora's most impressive feats is his raw power. I mean this in the physics term Power is the amount of work someone does per amount of time. Sora has plenty of this. (As Work is force multiplied by distance)

Near the end of the game after entering through the door at The World that Never was at the top of the castle he cuts through a skyscraper twice in the blink of an eye with a blunt object. (I say this because you can go in with any keyblade and he does the same thing so it is only fair to give him this ability)

The force it would take to cut something is dependent on the pressure you exert on it. Which is why knives and swords have blades. However with a blunt object you have to provide a much greater amount of force to cut something.

Sora generates a terrifying large amount of power doing this. Of course it may not be possible to calculate it. However lets just say not even modern M1 Abrams tanks could take him. May I also add that he didn't show any signs of fatigue afterwords.

Now his speed as I demonstrated in that example above is quite obvious. However he also has his warp snipe ability to show off. He is seemingly teleporting around the map. His reversal ability is also very interesting he doesn't seem to move as fast, but in a long battle you may not want to. I would suggest Sora use this to get around Link's shield, and will probably decide the battle.

His reflexes are also incredibly impressive. At the very end of the Xemnas battle he and riku take hundreds or thousands(VERY hard to count them no impossible) of lasers, and blocking them all. This goes on for quite a while It felt like a half hour but was probably like a minute.

As for the enemies he has faced many have been stronger and more powerful than he. Namely Xemnas. If Sora fought him alone he would have lost that fight. He would have no chance in a serious 1 V 1 with Xemnas. Riku saved Sora's ass at least two times in that battle.

After the Xemnas tuns of Dusks appeared (over a thousand I'm sure) It isn't certain that they fought them, but it is the best explanation we have so I would have to assume they did it is certainly the most likely assumption. This would only pile on even more spectacularity, if that is a word, to there endurance.

Summing that up Sora has:
Super human Power (The physics definition)
Strength - max force possibly tens of thousands of tons(it is really speculative as we don't have any concrete numbers) However it this may not be an insane number considering his feat.
Speed- Fast enough to where the human eye can not track.
Reflexes- Just freaking insane honestly if you can get a hit in on this guy you are fast.
Endurance- I mean this guy goes through crazy stuff. No doubt his battles are very hard and long. He has to go through several forms of Xemnas. When push comes to shove Sora can really hold out. If Link wants to take down Sora he will have to endure like Sora does. Honestly I hold Sora's Endurance higher than any of his other abilities.

I'll be adding more to this as right now it is late.