Originally posted by Eis
Yes I believe if the information the government needs is absolutley curcial. Torture is acceptable.
Possible, but doesn't the use of torture in fact create more enemy's and doesn't it make the government everythings its trying to fight out there? Do you think those goverments in the middle east have the same rights and the same need to do this? Or does this allowing torture only count for the US?
Firstly, why do you insist on quoting posts in such an indefinite way? Do you think it marks you as 'special'?
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Nah. It might be comforting to think it's all down to the money, but actually it's down to most western Government being glad that someone else is doing it for them, so that they don't have to be held morally accountable.
I find your absolutism fascinating, despite it being innately incorrect. The gradual reduction in the military support by previously supportive coalition forces shows that some governments are able to recognise errors and adapt to them as a result of accountability. The US has a 'clarity of vision' problem regarding this. It would appear that you also suffer from this affliction, although your malady is supplemented by naivety.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
No, because that would only be your opinion. I think my point was relevant, and I don't care if you do not, so you will just have to live with that.
If we were having a discussion on climate change, and I started going on about crime being a greater problem to be solved, it wouldn't really add anything to the discussion at hand, would it? (No, it wouldn't).
Originally posted by Ushgarak
And again, nah- I think it is naive to think that it won't. I think, actually, lots and lots of very naive people cling to the hope that history will cast down the US for this period in time. I think they are going to be very disappointed.
All these 'nahs' make me think you're attempting to impersonate an ambulance; the emergency within being your limited views. I'm attempting to give you some First Aid, but the situation is looking critical.
A nation that has caused, escalated, failed to stop, and exploited terrorism does no sound like one that will be feted in the future.
Originally posted by Hack Benjamin
Apparently, those who would dub such things "toture" have never left thier house. (Or watched a serious action movie.)
The people who only accept the legitimacy of torture as displayed in a movie are...
Originally posted by Hack Benjamin
The things expressed in your topic sound like something I'd see on a bad porn movie, it's hardly on the same level of "toture" as REAL toture. It's just more of a mental thing because well, terrorists are mental cases lol..
Did you read that qualifier at the end of my initial post? Excruciating physical and mental pain would appear to sit perfectly with the definition of torture. The evidence for this can be found in one of those links that I submitted. You're a big boy, so I'll let you find out which one...
Originally posted by Hack Benjamin
No, I don't see any reason why toture should be banned or frowned upon or anything, we didn't become a nation by being Mr. Niceguy, if that had been the case we'd still be English and this land would (maybe) still belong to the Indians..
Ahh...
Originally posted by Hack Benjamin
This is the real-world, not some comic book, and in the real world, you have to do hanus things to extract information from your enemy for the greater good, less you're willing to sacrifice your own life, your loved one's lives, and everybody else within ten thousand feet's life over your silly little code of honour. And who gave you THAT right? What makes you have the opinion of God that you can dictate what is exseptable and what is not when so many lives are at stake?
The only problem with the validity of a line of reasoning that uses 'for the greater good' is that you would need to be in a majority who believe it is right. This isn't the case. It's also the same reasoning used by terrorist groups.
Originally posted by Hack Benjamin
If you want to be a pacifist, you go right ahead, but don't you ever tell our goverment or how us citizens are somehow less then just because we care enough to get our hands dirty, even Superman and Vash the stampede, who had cool powers inorder to implement thier beliefs, knew not every man had that option, and kept thier mouth shut. Instead of being upset that your country does totutre (which again, this is LENIANT toture..) you should be grateful that your country is willing to do anything to protect itself. It has self-love. The same can't be said about France or pretty much every other country on the Eurepeon continent. They'd sell-out to Nazis if they made a comeback.. They [b]really don't care about thier citizens, albeit, neither does the American goverment in some respects. (IE: When we're talking money they'll screw you over everytime) but the American goverment is as strong as an ox, and twice as stubborn, if anyone's going to destroy America, it's going to be America. That's the way our goverment thinks, and that may be one of the few things that helps me sleep at night. My enemy's enemy if you will.. [/B]
Wow. Words. Cannot. Express. The. Utter...
Originally posted by Hack Benjamin
Apparently, those who would dub such things "toture" have never left thier house. (Or watched a serious action movie.)Bashing someone's toes with a hammer, that's toture.
Slaughtering someone's family or atleast holding them hostage and threatning to (and being honost about doing it) that's toture.
Slicing off limbs (preffebly more sensitive ones) with a machete, that's toture.The things expressed in your topic sound like something I'd see on a bad porn movie, it's hardly on the same level of "toture" as REAL toture. It's just more of a mental thing because well, terrorists are mental cases lol..
No, I don't see any reason why toture should be banned or frowned upon or anything, we didn't become a nation by being Mr. Niceguy, if that had been the case we'd still be English and this land would (maybe) still belong to the Indians..
This is the real-world, not some comic book, and in the real world, you have to do hanus things to extract information from your enemy for the greater good, less you're willing to sacrifice your own life, your loved one's lives, and everybody else within ten thousand feet's life over your silly little code of honour. And who gave you THAT right? What makes you have the opinion of God that you can dictate what is exseptable and what is not when so many lives are at stake?
If you want to be a pacifist, you go right ahead, but don't you ever tell our goverment or how us citizens are somehow less then just because we care enough to get our hands dirty, even Superman and Vash the stampede, who had cool powers inorder to implement thier beliefs, knew not every man had that option, and kept thier mouth shut. Instead of being upset that your country does totutre (which again, this is LENIANT toture..) you should be grateful that your country is willing to do anything to protect itself. It has self-love. The same can't be said about France or pretty much every other country on the Eurepeon continent. They'd sell-out to Nazis if they made a comeback.. They [b]really
don't care about thier citizens, albeit, neither does the American goverment in some respects. (IE: When we're talking money they'll screw you over everytime) but the American goverment is as strong as an ox, and twice as stubborn, if anyone's going to destroy America, it's going to be America. That's the way our goverment thinks, and that may be one of the few things that helps me sleep at night. My enemy's enemy if you will.. [/B]
Yeah, lenient torture. That's why 89 people have died due to mistreatment.
Maybe if someone was cracking your ribs with a truncheon while sodomizing you with a rusty pole you wouldn't think it was so lenient
Originally posted by soleran30
Krunk can you show us any sort of torture from the other side? I certainly cannot justify the USA piece but I am curious as to the treatment of US citizens/trooops as well.
My name's Ya Krunk'd Floo, not Google.com. If you have something to say, say it, rather than insinuate.
However, I will state highlight this: (Quoted from the Geneva Convention)
To this end the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever:
(a) Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;
(b) Taking of hostages;
(c) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment;
(d) The passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.
(a), (b), (c), and (d) would therefore be applicable to both the US and the terrorist networks operating in Iraq. State-sponsored terrorists dancing with ideological ones; what lovely bed-fellows they must be.
Originally posted by Darth Jello
Yeah, lenient torture. That's why 89 people have died due to mistreatment.
Maybe if someone was cracking your ribs with a truncheon while sodomizing you with a rusty pole you wouldn't think it was so lenient
#1: "Hope I get out of this mess alive".
#2: "Hope my enemies are expriencing just as much pain as I am".
i'm just guessing that since that is your defention of "lenient torture" (whatever that oxymoron is supposed to mean in the first place) i'm wondering what actual torture is. Is it vivisection? or is it only torture if the person dies in some cruel and unusual way.
Fun facts- The worlds largest producer and exporter of torture implements is Smith and Wesson.
Torture has been employed for years in the US penal system (and i don't mean systematic prison rape and inmate death matches). Many Texas prisons along with Pelican Bay in California have recently been found to be killing inmates with boiling water torture.
If by other side you mean the Iraqi army, than in this particular conflict there was no torture or mistreatment of troops. Even Jessica Lynch said that most of the stuff written and reported about her was military propoganda and that she's considering suing the Pentagon and the defense department. In terms of the different factions in the Iraqi civil war, yeah, there's been plenty of torture and cruel murder.
Many Texas prisons along with Pelican Bay in California have recently been found to be killing inmates with boiling water torture.
Originally posted by Ya Krunk'd Floo
Hack-Cough-Spit, all of your posts in this thread have been irrational and ignorant.
What on Earth are the 'right' reasons for a government to be torturing people, in this case, to death? Please share your wisdom and insight...