Originally posted by DarthBanevv
I can't help but think that Furbys are evil is biased. He changed it from DE Sidious to RotS. Though Sidious is more powerful in DE. Perhaps he wanted to ensure that he would make it to Kun.
Originally posted by Moff Tarkin
DE Sids curbstomps Revan.
Nice how everone downplays Revan's accomplishment. Word of advice play KOTOR and KOTOR 2, read the descriptions of Revan, analyze what he's done.
Defeating Malak is not simply just defeating his "old" apprentice. Malak's power was being amplified by the dark side of an entire race and it's technology. Not to mention that he was described as "unstoppable" with the power of the Star Forge. The fact that he could control such as device without being killed, is a testament to how much he learned at Malachor, as well as his own power. Now Kun has never even been to Malachor.
We can deduce the "type" of knowledge that the people of KOTOR obtained at Malachor, before you or anyone else try and downplay it.
Darth Traya, a powerful Sith learned a technique that could instantly kill three skilled Jedi masters. A technique from which there is "no defence." Now Revan, who was there first, possesses much more raw force strength, intelligence, and overall more talent and thus certainly learnt more from the teachings at Malachor than even Traya. Indeed, it is because of Revan that all the other Jedi in KOTOR fell.
His command of the force is incredible to say the least. The Rakatan's in game describe his force storm as lightning raining from the sky, slaughtering their scouting parties.
The very fact that he was described as "Power" by Kreia, who had lived during the times of Exar Kun and Ulic Qel Droma, speaks volumes for him. Finally, in KOTOR Revan is described as the only Jedi that can stand against the Ancient Sith, enemies who are akin to Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh.
BTW, not that I care or anything:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=377523
Originally posted by zephiel7
Nice how everone downplays Revan's accomplishment. Word of advice play KOTOR and KOTOR 2, read the descriptions of Revan, analyze what he's done.Defeating Malak is not simply just defeating his "old" apprentice. Malak's power was being amplified by the dark side of an entire race and it's technology. Not to mention that he was described as "unstoppable" with the power of the Star Forge. The fact that he could control such as device without being killed, is a testament to how much he learned at Malachor, as well as his own power. Now Kun has never even been to Malachor.
We can deduce the "type" of knowledge that the people of KOTOR obtained at Malachor, before you or anyone else try and downplay it.
Darth Traya, a powerful Sith learned a technique that could instantly kill three skilled Jedi masters. A technique from which there is "no defence." Now Revan, who was there first, possesses much more raw force strength, intelligence, and overall more talent and thus certainly learnt more from the teachings at Malachor than even Traya. Indeed, it is because of Revan that all the other Jedi in KOTOR fell.
His command of the force is incredible to say the least. The Rakatan's in game describe his force storm as lightning raining from the sky, slaughtering their scouting parties.
The very fact that he was described as "Power" by Kreia, who had lived during the times of Exar Kun and Ulic Qel Droma, speaks volumes for him. Finally, in KOTOR Revan is described as the only Jedi that can stand against the Ancient Sith, enemies who are akin to Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh.
Unfortuantely Kreia's word is biased, and illogical, she loves Revan as much as she loves the Exile, however Kun was crowned by Ragnos, which speaks loads more volumes of power for Kun, he was proclaimed the most formidable student vodo has ever had, seeing as Vodo is 600 and possessed far more knowledge and experience then Kreia and seeing as Vodo never took favourites, his word is far more credible, Whereas you provide proof that Revan is strong based on comments from people who have likely never seen or barely know the DLOTS before, remember Nomi Sunrider was only a Knight at the time, and yet her daughter was supposed to feature in Kotor, that means that the Masters of the Kotor time were at most Knights and more likely younglings.
Kun has demonstrated far superior knowledge, and learning from various places, especially Sadow's Sith Magic which already surpasses Revan's power, unless Revan is shown to be able to replicate Kun's abilities or Sadow's its unlikely he'll ever be on par with them. If you believe Malachor V gave Revan uber knowledge, i find you are misguided and mislead, I can just as easily assume Kun knows how to generate an entire army of illusions that can kill and act as a real army, destroy the star with the force and so forth.
Kreia is how old and at what rank during TOTJ? Hell she isnt even mentioned its likely she never fully understood Kun's power, she had never taught Kun, neither had she ever known him, she is biased towards Revan, and even she admits that the Ancient Sith make the Sith of her time, look like children with toys, how on earth can Revan contend with a Sith such as Naga Sadow if he made Revan look like a child with a toy? Moreso how would he defeat someone who was the last legacy of the Ancient Sith : Exar Kun.
Of course in Kotor it speaks volumes of his power, Kotor is Revan's time as is Kotor 2. As you know, every single attack before DE that was of worth was developed from the Ancient Sith, whats to say Kun didn't have his own? Kun is described to be so full of power than the ground shook from his sheer strength.
In Malachor, ok Revan learnt heaps, ok In Sadow's teachings Kun learns far superior and far stronger techniques, remember that all the knowledge that Ragnos his predessors were left on Korriban, and the rest on Yavin 4, by the time Kun ends his life the last knowledge of the Ancient Sith are lost.
Revan is in no way close to Kun, he might contend with Ulic but Kun is just leagues above him.
Unfortuantely Kreia's word is biased, and illogical, she loves Revan as much as she loves the Exile, however Kun was crowned by Ragnos, which speaks loads more volumes of power for Kun, he was proclaimed the most formidable student vodo has ever had, seeing as Vodo is 600 and possessed far more knowledge and experience then Kreia and seeing as Vodo never took favourites, his word is far more credible, Whereas you provide proof that Revan is strong based on comments from people who have likely never seen or barely know the DLOTS before, remember Nomi Sunrider was only a Knight at the time, and yet her daughter was supposed to feature in Kotor, that means that the Masters of the Kotor time were at most Knights and more likely younglings.
Kreia is perhaps one of the oldest characters in the KOTOR time. Suppose she is at the VERY LEAST sixty, during the days of Kun, she would at LEAST be 20. More likely than not, Kreia is probably late up their. Considering how long the Jedi/Sith last, and her appearance, it can be assumed that she is abnormally long lived. She was a member of the the Jedi council at least during the times of Exar Kun. Since the events in KOTOR/KOTOR 2 happened roughly 40 years after Exar Kun, Kreia's experience with Exar and Ulic are enough to form a valid basis for my support. Having experienced Exar Kun, she would have something to ground what would be considered as a powerful "Sith Lord." The fact that she called Revan "the heart the force" and "power," yet remains a clear indication of his power with respect to the other two dark lords.
Kun has demonstrated far superior knowledge, and learning from various places, especially Sadow's Sith Magic which already surpasses Revan's power, unless Revan is shown to be able to replicate Kun's abilities or Sadow's its unlikely he'll ever be on par with them. If you believe Malachor V gave Revan uber knowledge, i find you are misguided and mislead, I can just as easily assume Kun knows how to generate an entire army of illusions that can kill and act as a real army, destroy the star with the force and so forth.
Misguided? We KNOW that Kreia learned an instantkill technique from the ancient sith academy at Malachor 5. We also know that a more talented and force sensitive sith lord, Revan, visited Malachor 5 years BEFORE Kreia. Revan obviously learned more. He is shown and spoken of as having abilities that surpass any other dark lord/jedi master in KOTOR.
Kreia is how old and at what rank during TOTJ? Hell she isnt even mentioned its likely she never fully understood Kun's power, she had never taught Kun, neither had she ever known him, she is biased towards Revan, and even she admits that the Ancient Sith make the Sith of her time, look like children with toys, how on earth can Revan contend with a Sith such as Naga Sadow if he made Revan look like a child with a toy? Moreso how would he defeat someone who was the last legacy of the Ancient Sith : Exar Kun.
The abilities of Kun became common knowledge. The fact that he possessed Sadow's amulet, was known, his double bladed lightsaber style became known, also his strength in the dark side was known. Despite all this, from her experiences she considers Revan the strongest force user.
If anything, Kreia is prejudiced towards the Exile. Your belief that Kreia is biased towards Revan is unfounded. The fact that Ragnos deemed Kun the dark lord is partly because Revan wasn't even AROUND at that time.
It is stated time and time again that Revan was the only Jedi that had the power to contend against the ancient Sith. The ancient Sith are force users akin to Ragnos, Kressh, Simus, and Sadow. If the belief that Revan had enough potential and learned enough to contend against figures like these, then damn hell he would be able to tie Kun.
Kun is described to be so full of power than the ground shook from his sheer strength.
By whom, an old man at the space station orbiting Yavin 4? Even so, Revan was described so powerful that he was considered "the heart of the force."
Originally posted by zephiel7
Kreia is perhaps one of the oldest characters in the KOTOR time. Suppose she is at the VERY LEAST sixty, during the days of Kun, she would at LEAST be 20. More likely than not, Kreia is probably late up their. Considering how long the Jedi/Sith last, and her appearance, it can be assumed that she is abnormally long lived. She was a member of the the Jedi council at least during the times of Exar Kun. Since the events in KOTOR/KOTOR 2 happened roughly 40 years after Exar Kun, Kreia's experience with Exar and Ulic are enough to form a valid basis for my support. Having experienced Exar Kun, she would have something to ground what would be considered as a powerful "Sith Lord." The fact that she called Revan "the heart the force" and "power," yet remains a clear indication of his power with respect to the other two dark lords.Misguided? We KNOW that Kreia learned an instantkill technique from the ancient sith academy at Malachor 5. We also know that a more talented and force sensitive sith lord, Revan, visited Malachor 5 years BEFORE Kreia. Revan obviously learned more. He is shown and spoken of as having abilities that surpass any other dark lord/jedi master in KOTOR.
The abilities of Kun became common knowledge. The fact that he possessed Sadow's amulet, was known, his double bladed lightsaber style became known, also his strength in the dark side was known. Despite all this, from her experiences she considers Revan the strongest force user.
If anything, Kreia is prejudiced towards the Exile. Your belief that Kreia is biased towards Revan is unfounded. The fact that Ragnos deemed Kun the dark lord is partly because Revan wasn't even AROUND at that time.
It is stated time and time again that Revan was the only Jedi that had the power to contend against the ancient Sith. The ancient Sith are force users akin to Ragnos, Kressh, Simus, and Sadow. If the belief that Revan had enough potential and learned enough to contend against figures like these, then damn hell he would be able to tie Kun.
By whom, an old man at the space station orbiting Yavin 4? Even so, Revan was described so powerful that he was considered "the heart of the force."
Yes a 20 year old Jedi Knight, would not have a clear depiction on the power of Kun, as you know, only Jedi Masters faced off against Kun, all of them died, Kreia never faced off Kun, thus never saw his power nor had the ability to look at him and sense how much power he had, she is not a valid source as well she is not valid in the very fact she favours Revan.
Yet, Sadow has depicted a small portion of his force abilites that put him above Kun, and yet Kun shows force power that was never again replicated, where is the proof Revan is more powerful than Kun? Your purely making a biased speculation. Consider also he is described to be so powerful beacuse in Kotor his is the most powerful, yet all those who describe would never have had the chance to see Kun's power.
Common knowledge? As far as we know, his double bladed saber style was far different than that of any others, despite being a shorter hilt, he moved in a much fast and more precise style thus making his style unique, it is common knowledge everywhere that Kun wielded his saber differently to all the other Jedi/Sith.
My fact was based upon the very fact, that Ragnos forsaw and predicted and/or the sheer power of Kun allowed him the awaken Ragnos, meaning that Kun was of a power greater than Revan in order to awaken the most powerful of the most powerful.
Where was it stated time and time again that Revan could contend with the Ancient Sith? No where, the last legacy of the Ancient Sith is Exar Kun, he possessed the last of their knowledge and he destroyed it when he died. By your theory Kun was to bring about the Golden Age of the Sith, meaning that he too would be able to contend with them, no where in kotor or anywhere is it stated that Revan can contend with them, and even if they said in Kotor its completely useless, for anyone below the rank of a Jedi Master at Kun's time would be unable to tell Kun's true power.
Also Kreia learnt the instakill...where is the proof that Revan did? If you speculate that Revan learnt then i'll speculate that Kun learnt both spawning an entire army of Sith illusions that were able to kill, and he was able to blow a star with the force. Also Kreia's move may not even work on Kun, how do you even know that it would be effective against Kun, it was stated to have no defense during the KOTOR TIME.
Kreia is a powerful Jedi, however she is not on the council she is nowhere in the TOTJ comics meaning she could not have been a master of much worth and less a master that would have had a view on Kun's true power.
Originally posted by w00t2112
Kun has demonstrated far superior knowledge, and learning from various places, especially Sadow's Sith Magic which already surpasses Revan's power, unless Revan is shown to be able to replicate Kun's abilities or Sadow's its unlikely he'll ever be on par with them. If you believe Malachor V gave Revan uber knowledge, i find you are misguided and mislead, I can just as easily assume Kun knows how to generate an entire army of illusions that can kill and act as a real army, destroy the star with the force and so forth.
Can't say I agree with this. What Revan found on Korriban and Malachor V would give him great knowledge, on par with Naga Sadow? Hell no, but to assume Kun could blow up stars and create illusion army's like Sadow did simply because he had the last remnants of Sadow his power is ridiculious if you ask me.
Originally posted by w00t2112
Kreia is how old and at what rank during TOTJ? Hell she isnt even mentioned its likely she never fully understood Kun's power, she had never taught Kun, neither had she ever known him, she is biased towards Revan, and even she admits that the Ancient Sith make the Sith of her time, look like children with toys, how on earth can Revan contend with a Sith such as Naga Sadow if he made Revan look like a child with a toy? Moreso how would he defeat someone who was the last legacy of the Ancient Sith : Exar Kun.
She's talking about Tulak Hord and not the ancient Sith in general. On Korriban she talks about Hord, Pall, Ragnos, Sadow, Kressh never about Exar Kun. She does not think Kun is in the same league as those guys.
Originally posted by w00t2112
Of course in Kotor it speaks volumes of his power, Kotor is Revan's time as is Kotor 2. As you know, every single attack before DE that was of worth was developed from the Ancient Sith, whats to say Kun didn't have his own? Kun is described to be so full of power than the ground shook from his sheer strength.
That last thing was said by a Rodian who worshipped the very ground Kun walked on, if there was ever a biased source. And do you have any prove that Kun created his own attacks? No, didn't think so. So he didn't.
Originally posted by zephiel7
he was a member of the the Jedi council at least during the times of Exar Kun
This is some of the most unfounded bullshit I have read.... She wasn't on the council, that time didn't even have a council.
Originally posted by zephiel7
Since the events in KOTOR/KOTOR 2 happened roughly 40 years after Exar Kun, Kreia's experience with Exar and Ulic are enough to form a valid basis for my support.
Hardly, the Jedi weren't exactly gathering a lot in those days its very possible she never met either one of them. Perhaps she saw them on Osus when that place was about to blow up and if thats the case she would have been gathering all the knowledge she could, she would have put it into a ship and she would have left. She wouldn't have really had the time or the oppurtunity to learn to know either one of them.
Originally posted by zephiel7
Misguided? We KNOW that Kreia learned an instantkill technique from the ancient sith academy at Malachor 5. We also know that a more talented and force sensitive sith lord, Revan, visited Malachor 5 years BEFORE Kreia. Revan obviously learned more. He is shown and spoken of as having abilities that surpass any other dark lord/jedi master in KOTOR.
The instakill technique, is a technique that can not be learned. She did not learn it from Malachor V. And she likely went there are at the same time as Revan, but she had a lot more time to study the place. Unless you have prove to show otherwise. Which you don't.
Originally posted by zephiel7
The abilities of Kun became common knowledge. The fact that he possessed Sadow's amulet, was known, his double bladed lightsaber style became known, also his strength in the dark side was known. Despite all this, from her experiences she considers Revan the strongest force user.
At that time... Not ever, not 40 years ago.
Originally posted by zephiel7
If anything, Kreia is prejudiced towards the Exile. Your belief that Kreia is biased towards Revan is unfounded. The fact that Ragnos deemed Kun the dark lord is partly because Revan wasn't even AROUND at that time.It is stated time and time again that Revan was the only Jedi that had the power to contend against the ancient Sith. The ancient Sith are force users akin to Ragnos, Kressh, Simus, and Sadow. If the belief that Revan had enough potential and learned enough to contend against figures like these, then damn hell he would be able to tie Kun.
Who says those Sith are even close to as powerful as the earlier one's? Considering as all the knowledge was lost the most powerful sith Lords were destroyed by their own massassi and what remained was almost completely destroyed by the army's of the Republic and the Jedi....
Originally posted by w00t2112
Yet, Sadow has depicted a small portion of his force abilites that put him above Kun, and yet Kun shows force power that was never again replicated, where is the proof Revan is more powerful than Kun? Your purely making a biased speculation. Consider also he is described to be so powerful beacuse in Kotor his is the most powerful, yet all those who describe would never have had the chance to see Kun's power.
Not entirely true, most of them would have had a chance to see something of Kun and or Ulic, they however never say Revan is the greatest ever, just the greatest they have trained the greatest they have seen in a long time. Shit like that. So it doesn't matter.
Originally posted by w00t2112
My fact was based upon the very fact, that Ragnos forsaw and predicted and/or the sheer power of Kun allowed him the awaken Ragnos, meaning that Kun was of a power greater than Revan in order to awaken the most powerful of the most powerful.
Actually we see the Amulets doing that, Kun even says "the amulets? What are they doing?" or something like that... So it was the combination of their fight and the two amulets or perhaps just the two amulets. I still don't see how that really matters though because Revan was also apparantly crowned Dark Lord of the Sith by somebody, and it wouldn't matter who it was, because the Sith talk about this shit and decide together...
Originally posted by w00t2112
Where was it stated time and time again that Revan could contend with the Ancient Sith? No where, the last legacy of the Ancient Sith is Exar Kun, he possessed the last of their knowledge and he destroyed it when he died. By your theory Kun was to bring about the Golden Age of the Sith, meaning that he too would be able to contend with them, no where in kotor or anywhere is it stated that Revan can contend with them, and even if they said in Kotor its completely useless, for anyone below the rank of a Jedi Master at Kun's time would be unable to tell Kun's true power.
Where does this come from? Kun had knowledge from 2 sources. 2, Sadow and Nadd... Revan had acces to a lot more knowledge, what he did with it is up to debate but he certainly had more he could access...
Originally posted by w00t2112
Also Kreia learnt the instakill...where is the proof that Revan did? If you speculate that Revan learnt then i'll speculate that Kun learnt both spawning an entire army of Sith illusions that were able to kill, and he was able to blow a star with the force. Also Kreia's move may not even work on Kun, how do you even know that it would be effective against Kun, it was stated to have no defense during the KOTOR TIME.
Two things about this.
1.) Kreia did not learn the instakill its a technique you can not learn
2.) there simply is no defence, there has never been a defence seeing as the Technique has never been used before.
Originally posted by w00t2112
Kreia is a powerful Jedi, however she is not on the council she is nowhere in the TOTJ comics meaning she could not have been a master of much worth and less a master that would have had a view on Kun's true power.
Those times didn't even have a council, so yeah we can safely say she wasn't on it.
Originally posted by w00t2112
As with Ragnos, and 70% speculation bout Kun aas we dont know how much he learnt of Sadow
With Kun we have no reason to speculate we have seen enough that puts him above Revan. Speculating about Kun is just as bad as speculating abuot Revan, if not worse because its not needed.
In reply to your point about Revan not being as powerful as Kun simply because the ancient sith didn't approach him - there is a plausible explanation. Revan's sith order was very much unlike the ancient sith order while Kun's was, and his intentions originally were likely to be good and his reasons for going to the dark side were much different then Kun's and Sidious'.
Originally posted by zod360
In reply to your point about Revan not being as powerful as Kun simply because the ancient sith didn't approach him - there is a plausible explanation. Revan's sith order was very much unlike the ancient sith order while Kun's was, and his intentions originally were likely to be good and his reasons for going to the dark side were much different then Kun's and Sidious'.
So you think a lot of Jedi wake up one morning and go "I'm going to renounce everything I was ever taught and going to go turn into an evil bastard!"?
A lot of Jedi have noble intentions, get caught up in the dark side, and fall. Even Exar Kun stated that he would "never turn to the dark side" in his comics. You saw how great that was.