"You are under Arrest"

Started by The_Tempest6 pages
S_W_LeGenD
Revan's reaction time is also extreme.

facepalm

If I say Person X "is the fastest person in the world" and you say Person Y "is fast as well," you haven't addressed my argument, you've only wasted my time.

Revan being fast in no way undermines the fact that Tiin is faster and by a considerable margin.

S_W_LeGenD
Revan was great with telepathy as well. At one time, he attempted to sense the presence of Meetra accross the breath of the Galaxy; unfortunately, Meetra had cut herself from the Force during this time.

Irrelevant. You've offered nothing to suggest Revan is a precog on Tiin's level.

S_W_LeGenD
And this is why no one should take you seriously.

Have you forgotten how Revan handled the TOR era Imperial Guard (empowered by none other but Sith Emperor himself)?

You mean the non-Force sensitive mooks? Yeah, I remember. Color me unimpressed.

S_W_LeGenD
These points are relevant because this is how he has been promoted in the Star Wars. In fact, he has feats which prove all of these claims.

No, they're not. If I say Saesee Tiin has lightspeed reactions and you say Revan is fast, all you've done is say that Revan is fast. Your burden is to prove he's faster. Being fast and being faster are two entirely different concepts.

S_W_LeGenD
I have. You choose to stay blind.

You haven't. All you've done is say he's fast. You haven't shown how he's faster.

S_W_LeGenD
Genius; Revan have outpaced formidable opponents in similar manner. And Revan's reaction time is also extreme.

Revan being fast does not mean he's as fast as Tiin.

S_W_LeGenD
Useless point.

No, just one you're too stupid to understand.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
If I say Person X "is the fastest person in the world" and you say Person Y "is fast as well," you haven't addressed my argument, you've only wasted my time.

Revan being fast in no way undermines the fact that Tiin is faster and by a considerable margin.


Bullshit.

Revan's reaction time is instantaneous:

The impact sent the Hawk into a spiraling, twisting roll. Revan wrenched the stick from side to side, fighting for control. Using the Force, he was able to anticipate and react to the erratic flight with instantaneous precision adjustments, keeping the ship aloft until it regained its equilibrium.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Irrelevant. You've offered nothing to suggest Revan is a precog on Tiin's level.

Bullshit

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You mean the non-Force sensitive mooks? Yeah, I remember. Color me unimpressed.

These mooks were capable of going toe-to-toe EXPERT swordsmen.

Another baseless point from you.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
No, they're not. If I say Saesee Tiin has lightspeed reactions and you say Revan is fast, all you've done is say that Revan is fast. Your burden is to prove he's faster. Being fast and being faster are two entirely different concepts.

Revan's reaction time is instantaneous.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You haven't. All you've done is say he's fast. You haven't shown how he's faster.

See above.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Revan being fast does not mean he's as fast as Tiin.

Revan is extraordinarily fast.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
No, just one you're too stupid to understand.

No, you are.

Cloak of Deception
The pair swung to the sound, with weapons raised.

And in that instant, Obi-Wan disappeared in a blur, headed for Cohls pod.

^ This is Obi-Wan Kenobi shortly before the events of TPM, who is also reacting "instantaneously." Of course he's moving his entire body, whereas Revan is making adjustments with his limbs.

The same Obi-Wan Kenobi who says Tiin's abilities with Force-guided hyperspace travel is "beyond his abilities" in The Jedi Path.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
[^ This is Obi-Wan Kenobi shortly before the events of TPM, who is also reacting "instantaneously." Of course he's moving his entire body, whereas Revan is making adjustments with his limbs.

The same Obi-Wan Kenobi who says Tiin's abilities with Force-guided hyperspace travel is "beyond his abilities" in The Jedi Path.


And yet Obi-Wan was able to handle Anakin, who is better then Tin. You just destroyed your own argument.

Your smart-assery isn't going to save your pathetic assessment.

facepalm

No, it just means TPM!Obi-Wan, like Anakin and Tiin, are faster than Revan. 😂

Originally posted by The_Tempest
facepalm

No, it just means TPM!Obi-Wan, like Anakin and Tiin, are faster than Revan. 😂


Not at all; you deluded PT fanboy.

Revan and Obi-Wan did two different things. Revan's feat is about judgement and reflexes; Obi-Wan's feat is about physical movement.

Take some time off. You are not thinking clearly.

😂

Exactly: TPM!Obi-Wan can move his entire body in the speed it takes for Revan to move only his hands. Reaction is not limited to just movement of limbs, bro.

You lose. stoned

Originally posted by The_Tempest
😂

Exactly: TPM!Obi-Wan can move his entire body in the speed it takes for Revan to move only his hands. Reaction is not limited to just movement of limbs, bro.

You lose. stoned


Are you drunk at this moment?

You are comparing apples and oranges here.

Revan was piloting a ship; Obi-Wan wasn't.

Again, Obi-Wan can move exponentially greater mass and weight (his entire body) in the duration of time it takes Revan to move exponentially smaller mass and weight (his hands). Obi-Wan's feat is significantly more impressive, further proof that the earlier excerpt you provided about "lightning fast reflexes of a Jedi" referred to common reflexes.

As it stands, Tiin solos.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Again, Obi-Wan can move exponentially greater mass and weight (his entire body) in the duration of time it takes Revan to move exponentially smaller mass and weight (his hands). Obi-Wan's feat is significantly more impressive, further proof that the earlier excerpt you provided about "lightning fast reflexes of a Jedi" referred to common reflexes.

As it stands, Tiin solos.


Epic failure of logic. First you were talking about piloting skills and now you have jumped towards physical movements. Apples and oranges comparison.

Revan's feat is about precognition:

The impact sent the Hawk into a spiraling, twisting roll. Revan wrenched the stick from side to side, fighting for control. Using the Force, he was able to anticipate and react to the erratic flight with instantaneous precision adjustments, keeping the ship aloft until it regained its equilibrium.

Obi-Wan's feat isn't about precognition but he used the Force to run very fast. Entirely different feat.

No, we were talking about reaction times, speed, and precognition. Revan is slower than TPM!Obi-Wan, thanks for playing.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
No, we were talking about reaction times, speed, and precognition. Revan is slower than TPM!Obi-Wan, thanks for playing.

Unlike Revan's, Obi-Wan's feat isn't about precognition and reaction towards anything. Obi-Wan was running towards a Pod. You need to rest because your mind isn't working right now.

I am talking about precognition and reaction rate. I am not talking about physical movement.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
But, by all means, keep regaling us with comments like "Revan is a talented lightsaber duelist!" and "he's like really cute!" so he winz! 😂
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Reiterating such broad remarks might help you reach sexual climax quicker, but it does nothing for this thread.

lmao

Originally posted by tdtd
What he said. Revan is superior to ROTS Sidious in saber combat. Then again we have no proof that he is above Mace, or Yoda..

Even if it's Revan after he fought and was defeated by the Sith Emperor, he dies without killing any of those Jedi.

He has many more powers, but so did Galen Marek, although not to such a degree as Revan. Yet still Sidious pulverized Galen Marek, as he would Revan, as he would Vitiate...even at that point.

The only Sith capable of beating him in direct combat on even terms was summarized to be his master Plagueis, but even Plageuis was slightly less powerful all together.

The key to Sidious' abilities in lightsaber combat was his Force Speed, a power which was taken beyond the point Revan could ever wield. Sidious' Force Speed was such that he could eliminate two Jedi before the four Jedi Masters knew that they had been engaged. That is an extreme use of Force Speed matched only by Plaguies.

I think even Plagueis' master was stronger than Bane, the Sith progressively grew stronger because of the rule of two, to the point where only the Chosen One could take the mantle, but Vader couldn't accept who he had become.

Originally posted by Dolos
Even if it's Revan after he fought and was defeated by the Sith Emperor, he dies without killing any of those Jedi.

🙄

Here;

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Revan and Malgus have contended with relatively stronger foes and survived; and even defeated relatively stronger foes.

About those 3 Jedi Masters;

Kolar: Sparring matches prove nothing. Jedi don't kill in sparring matches; they simply test their abilities in safest possible manner in them. Also, Mace got better, didn't he?

Yes, Kolar handled Vos. Good. However, I don't recall Vos as being among the Elites of the Jedi Order. Any other person of note whom Kolar handled?

Kolar sounds like PT equivalent of Kavar from TOR at best.

Fisto: He handled Grievous because of his proficiency with Form I of lightsaber combat. However, he sucked in one-on-one confrontation against a skilled duelist such as Assaj. His failure against Sidious doesn't surprises me.

Tin: Apart from verbal fellatos; I don't see any major accomplishments of this Jedi in combat either.

Originally posted by Dolos
He has many more powers, but so did Galen Marek, although not to such a degree as Revan. Yet still Sidious pulverized Galen Marek, as he would Revan, as he would Vitiate...even at that point.

Gallen himself gave up.

Originally posted by Dolos
The only Sith capable of beating him in direct combat on even terms was summarized to be his master Plagueis, but even Plageuis was slightly less powerful all together.

Actually the author clarified in a Q&A session that Plageuis could handle Sidious in fair circumstances.

Originally posted by Dolos
The key to Sidious' abilities in lightsaber combat was his Force Speed, a power which was taken beyond the point Revan could ever wield. Sidious' Force Speed was such that he could eliminate two Jedi before the four Jedi Masters knew that they had been engaged. That is an extreme use of Force Speed matched only by Plaguies.

Well, the issue here is that we do not know the limits of Revan in terms of his Force speed. However, it is apparent from his novel that his precognitive abilities are nothing short of amazing.

This whole argument of speed should be revisited.

- Sidious fought Yoda

- Dooku fought Yoda

- Anakin & Obi-Wan have fought Dooku several times.

In fact, several other individuals have fought Dooku. And I never saw Dooku biltzing any celebrated warrior in combat. And yet Dooku was able to keep up with Yoda; who in turn was able to keep up with Sidious.

So the entire situation is ambiguous. Those 3 Jedi Masters whom Sidious blitzed do not have combat resume on par with that of Revan. Therefore, you assumption is premature.

Originally posted by Dolos
I think even Plagueis' master was stronger than Bane, the Sith progressively grew stronger because of the rule of two, to the point where only the Chosen One could take the mantle, but Vader couldn't accept who he had become.

And you know that how the stage of RO2 was set? With teachings of Revan.

You highly overestimated the Jedi and Sith from the Old Republic Saga.

The Clone Wars Jedi and Sith were far more powerful. Especially the Sith, the Rule of Two states that one Sith cannot surpass another without being stronger in the Force.

Sidious would have decimated his master in a fair fight by DE anyway. And stated that Vader, after losing all those midichlorians, could still surpass him. Yoda was more Force sensitive than Sidious, and Dooku said Yoda could surpass him if he were a Sith. Luke could surpass him as well. Vader was limited by his inner conflict, Yoda by the Light Side, and Luke by the Light Side. It's not all about Force potential.

Originally posted by Dolos
You highly overestimated the Jedi and Sith from the Old Republic Saga.

No. I recognize the elites of every era and give them their due.

Originally posted by Dolos
The Clone Wars Jedi and Sith were far more powerful.

You need to pay more attention to TOR lore then. CW era Jedi weren't more powerful in general. In fact, prowess in combat arts/techniques was important to Jedi during TOR era due to massive kinds of threats Jedi/Republic had to face on periodic basis. In contrast, the Jedi Order relatively experienced a long period of peace during RO2 era.

Thus far, I have noticed that by the time of CW, certain lightsaber dueling arts were further improved/developed but few mastered these.

And among the Sith, only Sidious stood out in history. He succeeded where others failed but this was made possible through RO2 strategy. If command of the Force is taken in to consideration; much of what Sidious demonstrated had been performed in previous times. So nothing unique in this aspect.

Originally posted by Dolos
Especially the Sith, the Rule of Two states that one Sith cannot surpass another without being stronger in the Force.

Debatable. Bane, regardless of being the first member, still ranks among the most powerful Sith Lords in history. Maul and Dooku were also part of RO2, correct? They weren't stronger then Bane. In fact, weaker then him.

Originally posted by Dolos
Sidious would have decimated his master in a fair fight by DE anyway.

This is possible. Though I still do not know that how easy this fight would be because Luke did chop his hand off during a duel.

Originally posted by Dolos
And stated that Vader, after losing all those midichlorians, could still surpass him.

Where?

Originally posted by Dolos
Yoda was more Force sensitive than Sidious,

Evidence?

Originally posted by Dolos
and Dooku said Yoda could surpass him if he were a Sith. Luke could surpass him as well.

In Dooku's opinion. Perhaps, Yoda would have become more effective combatant. But then, Sidious had spent lot of time in understanding the ways of the Sith.

If Yoda had begin as a Sith then he could possibly become better. Would have been interesting scenario.

Originally posted by Dolos
Vader was limited by his inner conflict,

From Star Wars official website:

Darth Vader was encased in sinister black armor. The man underneath was mortally wounded in a lightsaber duel, and the dark suit includes extensive machinery to keep Vader alive. The sounds of his mechanical lungs accompany his every step. Such injuries greatly diminished his ability to use the Force, but Vader is still very powerful. He can command the power of the dark side to hurl objects or remotely crush the throats of his victims.

Vader packed raw power but was weakened and restricted in the ways of the Force due to his injuries. (I hate you Obi-Wan)

Originally posted by Dolos
Yoda by the Light Side, and Luke by the Light Side. It's not all about Force potential.

To some extent this is correct. Yoda is passive/defensive in nature though he can go on the offensive sometimes. Luke is not as much passive; he can really raise the stakes when he feels the need to.

I agree that it is not all about potential.

In asking for that evidence, it's on Wookieepedia, Anakin Skywalker's bio page, under Powers and Abilities, As a Sith Lord. It will give you the canon source there as well.

The Clone Wars Jedi were more skilled overall, when you get into the Clone Wars TV series, and add that up with the Cartoon and the Novels, and then the Novelizations of the Prequel Trilogy, they had better Jedi than TOR. TOR's best Jedi other than Revan was his daughter, the Grand Master, Mace Windu was stronger and more skilled in combat than both Revan and his daughter. And Yoda was stronger than him. Count Dooku approaches Revan.

Dooku and Maul were apprentices in the Rule of Two, but they never became masters themselves. They couldn't without becoming stronger than Sidious. That's why the Rule of Two was the strongest Sith Order in the mythos, and Sidious was the strongest Sith.

Luke's second battle with The Dark Emperor was not on even terms, neither was his battle with Windu. The only ones who ever challenged him on equal terms were Yoda and Galen Marek, and they both lost.

Originally posted by Dolos
In asking for that evidence, it's on Wookieepedia, Anakin Skywalker's bio page, under Powers and Abilities, As a Sith Lord. It will give you the canon source there as well.

Cybernetic Vader could never surpass Sidious in power and neither had the potential to do so. This is why he wanted an ally to help him in his plans against Sidious. Such plans of Vader failed, however, as neither Gallen and nor Luke helped him in this task.

Originally posted by Dolos
The Clone Wars Jedi were more skilled overall, when you get into the Clone Wars TV series, and add that up with the Cartoon and the Novels, and then the Novelizations of the Prequel Trilogy, they had better Jedi than TOR.

This is an assumption. Unfortunately, TOR era characters do not get much screen time and this is why their true abilities do not come to light.

However, whenever, TOR era characters have gotten screen time, they were simply amazing in combat.

Originally posted by Dolos
TOR's best Jedi other than Revan was his daughter, the Grand Master, Mace Windu was stronger and more skilled in combat than both Revan and his daughter. And Yoda was stronger than him.

Mace Windu wasn't stronger then Revan and Satele. Mace have better showings with the lightsaber and Revan have better showings with the Force. However, Revan's lightsaber dueling abilities have not been revealed to full extent yet. Interestingly, Mace and Revan have been identified as Champions of the Jedi Order.

It is also debatable if Yoda is stronger then Revan and Satele either; Yoda is much more explored in comparison. However, Satele also became the Grand Jedi Master like him.

Originally posted by Dolos
Count Dooku approaches Revan.

No, he doesn't.

Originally posted by Dolos
Dooku and Maul were apprentices in the Rule of Two, but they never became masters themselves. They couldn't without becoming stronger than Sidious. That's why the Rule of Two was the strongest Sith Order in the mythos, and Sidious was the strongest Sith.

Not necessarily. RO2 was like a niche.

In the Book of Sith; following individuals have been identified as the strongest predecessors of Sidious:

- Sorus Syn
- Darth Malgus
- Darth Bane
- Mother Talzin
- Darth Plagueis

However, other canonical sources are promoting Vitiate as the most powerful Sith Lord in history. Not to forget that their some other powerhouses as well such Darth Jadus, Darth Nihilus, Darth Nyriss, Exar Kun and Darth Traya.

Originally posted by Dolos
Luke's second battle with The Dark Emperor was not on even terms,

Why not?

Originally posted by Dolos
neither was his battle with Windu.

Wrong. Windu sank in to Vaapad to handle Sidious. He did gain advantage over Sidious; this doesn't means that Windu was more powerful.

Originally posted by Dolos
The only ones who ever challenged him on equal terms were Yoda and Galen Marek, and they both lost.

In a sense. However, Gallen willingly gave-up. And so did Yoda.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Fapping to The Old Republic MMO

#1:

The Emperor, having gone out of his way to keep Vader alive, took an alternative viewpoint. Though it was true to say that he had not bargained for an apprentice that was "more machine than man", Palpatine was of the opinion that most of the limitations on Vader's potential power were not physical but psychological. He believed that, were Vader to fully confront his choices completely shake himself out of his despair, he would have been able to reawaken the incredible power of the Chosen One within him. To an extent, this was true: once he got used to his armor and re-tooled his fighting style, Vader became an incredibly powerful Sith Lord. However, he would always be haunted to varying degrees by the choices he had made, even to the point of what amounted to temporary insanity during his mission to Atoa. Thus, while Vader made progress in this regard, he was never fully able to accept who and what he had become, and therefore never fulfilled his potential. Sidious would ultimately come to realize that Vader would never be the apprentice he longed for. He would try to replace him on at least two occasions with more powerful Force-sensitives, Galen Marek and Luke Skywalker. The Prophets of the Dark Side also saw Vader as too much of a Jedi to truly embrace the Dark side.

#2: They demonstrated less power and overall capabilities in combat, despite their "neat Force powers". You can't just say they're more powerful but simply lack the showings to prove it. Let's not forget Mace Windu crushing General Grevious' chest, or Yoda TKing Droid Capital ships practically as large as Star Destroyers with ease and precision. At least we can assume Yoda and Mace Windu are eons ahead of other Jedi, only faintly matched by the likes of Obi-Wan or Qui Gon Jinn, and more closely matched yet still far beyond the likes of Count Dooku and Darth Vader...and surpassed by Sidious.

#3: Yes he was. As for Force powers his Force speed and TK allowed him to destroy an entire army of Super Battle Droids and their super weapon pretty much on his own, at parts of that battle he was unarmed. Ian (the actor who played Sidious) explains that Mace Windu fights hundreds of times faster than other Jedi in the Making of Star Wars EP III.

And don't let me start on Yoda. He was canonically stated in the ROTS novelization as the most powerful Jedi the order had ever known. I hope you can understand straight canon statements and the weight they hold.

#4: Yes he does, 😛

#5: So you're a canon source now? Read Gideon's Darkness Beyond Darkness: I am not making my canon statements up, and at least I'm giving sources (ROTS novel for both Palpatine and Yoda). To compound Gideon's three examples of Palpatine being the strongest Sith ever in canon statements, Maul stated it as well in CW during the 4th Season). The only other time a statement like this was made was on the plot summary on the back of the Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil novel...which was not a canon statement, but stated that Zannah and Bane were the strongest Sith Lords in history.

#6: The Emperor was conjuring a Force storm during the duel, and purposefully lost (as he effortlessly disarmed Luke in a duel mere hours earlier, that loss could be nothing more than intentional, even with Leia and her child's help through Force valor/Battle meditation). After the duel Luke, his sister, and her unborn child used Force Light to turn the Emperor's Force storm on him...which had nothing to do with his lack of power. it was a variable Sidious hadn't considered, and one he wasn't prepared for, like losing a duel with his apprentice Luke.

#7: Vaapad didn't save Windu, an opportune shatterpoint did when Windu and the Emperor's stamina began to fade. The Emperor could have easily overpowered Windu without three other Jedi Masters, one of them powerful enough to defeat General Grevious (Kit Fisto, Clone Wars season 1), that further debilitated his stamina, which still was equal to the young Windu's afterward. And then in Empire's End, after his only good Clone body had been destroyed by his Dark Side Wormhole, the Emperor's pathetically weak physical form again proved unable to wield the necessary dark side energy to stand against Luke (stronger than Satele and Revan at this point, practically Legacy of the Force level) and his Jedi.

Point being the Force can only do so much when you're old an bridle like Palpatine, and outnumbered. It was not on equal terms, if Windu had been alone he would have died before Sidious' power went plateau as it did when he was aided by Kit and the other two Masters. Remember it took him a few more seconds to kill Kit, whereas the first masters died instantly, then it took him several minutes before he and his last assailant expended their last reserves.

#8: Because they both realized they were no match for the strongest Sith Lord in the mythos. In both novelizations this is stated.