"You are under Arrest"

Originally posted by Dolos
#1:

This information represents Sidious's opinion. It isn't necessarily an indication of reality because George Lucas and numerous other sources point out that Vader lost his true potential after his injuries on Mustafar.

As an example: http://starwars.com/explore/encyclopedia/characters/darthvader/

Originally posted by Dolos
#2: They demonstrated less power and overall capabilities in combat, despite their "neat Force powers". You can't just say they're more powerful but simply lack the showings to prove it.

- Did you forget that Darth Nihilus lifted a Cruiser from the surface of Malachor with his command of the Force? (Or you don't know?)

- Did you forget that Darth Jadus held together a ripped apart Cruiser with his command of the Force? (Or you don't know?)

- Malgus once faced a Jedi in combat who used the Force to collapse two buildings around Malgus's position with a chunk of debris falling over the Sith Lord.

Their would be more examples.

Originally posted by Dolos
Let's not forget Mace Windu crushing General Grevious' chest,

Originally posted by Dolos
or Yoda TKing Droid Capital ships practically as large as Star Destroyers with ease and precision.

Originally posted by Dolos
At least we can assume Yoda and Mace Windu are eons ahead of other Jedi, only faintly matched by the likes of Obi-Wan or Qui Gon Jinn, and more closely matched yet still far beyond the likes of Count Dooku and Darth Vader...and surpassed by Sidious.

Originally posted by Dolos
#3: Yes he was. As for Force powers his Force speed and TK allowed him to destroy an entire army of Super Battle Droids and their super weapon pretty much on his own, at parts of that battle he was unarmed.

Also, Revan reached Darth Malak's position in the Star Forge unharmed after so much fighting.

Originally posted by Dolos
Ian (the actor who played Sidious) explains that Mace Windu fights hundreds of times faster than other Jedi in the Making of Star Wars EP III.

Originally posted by Dolos
And don't let me start on Yoda. He was canonically stated in the ROTS novelization as the most powerful Jedi the order had ever known. I hope you can understand straight canon statements and the weight they hold.

In one source, Yoda was described as extraordinarily powerful in the Force. In the same source, Luke wasn't.

So lets just avoid getting in to this tricky situation.

Originally posted by Dolos
#4: Yes he does, 😛

Revan have endured hundreds of years of torture; fought through armies of Mandalorians and Sith; and defeated extraordinarily powerful foes. Heck, his knowledge paved way for Sith to become strong once again after a long period.

Revan is above the likes of Maul, Dooku and Vader. Sorry.

Originally posted by Dolos
#5: So you're a canon source now? Read Gideon's Darkness Beyond Darkness: I am not making my canon statements up, and at least I'm giving sources (ROTS novel for both Palpatine and Yoda). To compound Gideon's three examples of Palpatine being the strongest Sith ever in canon statements, Maul stated it as well in CW during the 4th Season). The only other time a statement like this was made was on the plot summary on the back of the Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil novel...which was not a canon statement, but stated that Zannah and Bane were the strongest Sith Lords in history.

You will be amazed by the disclosures in the new Star Wars The Old Republic Encyclopedia. When my copy will arrive, I will gladly do the honors.

B/W do you know that Darth Plagueis have also been stated to be the strongest Sith Lord in history?

So let us keep the "most powerful" arguments in the bag.

Originally posted by Dolos
#6: The Emperor was conjuring a Force storm during the duel, and purposefully lost (as he effortlessly disarmed Luke in a duel mere hours earlier, that loss could be nothing more than intentional, even with Leia and her child's help through Force valor/Battle meditation). After the duel Luke, his sister, and her unborn child used Force Light to turn the Emperor's Force storm on him...which had nothing to do with his lack of power. it was a variable Sidious hadn't considered, and one he wasn't prepared for, like losing a duel with his apprentice Luke.

Luke engaged Sidious in a lightsaber duel while Leia watched. During this duel, Luke disarmed Sidious. The latter then decided to conjure a Force Storm to destroy Luke and Leia and possibly more. However, Luke and Leia stopped him from doing so by using the Force Harmony technique.

I don't remember correctly but Sidious was cut off from the Force or something?

Originally posted by Dolos
#7: Vaapad didn't save Windu, an opportune shatterpoint did when Windu and the Emperor's stamina began to fade.

Originally posted by Dolos
The Emperor could have easily overpowered Windu without three other Jedi Masters, one of them powerful enough to defeat General Grevious (Kit Fisto, Clone Wars season 1), that further debilitated his stamina, which still was equal to the young Windu's afterward. And then in Empire's End, after his only good Clone body had been destroyed by his Dark Side Wormhole, the Emperor's pathetically weak physical form again proved unable to wield the necessary dark side energy to stand against Luke (stronger than Satele and Revan at this point, practically Legacy of the Force level) and his Jedi.

Originally posted by Dolos
Point being the Force can only do so much when you're old an bridle like Palpatine, and outnumbered. It was not on equal terms, if Windu had been alone he would have died before Sidious' power went plateau as it did when he was aided by Kit and the other two Masters. Remember it took him a few more seconds to kill Kit, whereas the first masters died instantly, then it took him several minutes before he and his last assailant expended their last reserves.

Yes, I can understand the limitations imposed by old age. But Palpatine still had lot in him;

The shadow he fought, that blur of speed-could that be Palpatine? (ROTS Novel)

&

He could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so could the blur of Sith he faced; in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear. (ROTS Novel)

Originally posted by Dolos
#8: Because they both realized they were no match for the strongest Sith Lord in the mythos. In both novelizations this is stated.

Thanks for sharing that information. Kindly mention the source as well.

I think Wookieepedia copied that text directly from Labyrinth of Evil, if not it was from one of the Encyclopedias, most likely the Dark Side sourcebook. That was not a random editor's writing. It just wasn't.

This information represents Sidious's opinion. It isn't necessarily an indication of reality because George Lucas and numerous other sources point out that Vader lost his true potential after his injuries on Mustafar.

As an example: http://starwars.com/explore/encyclopedia/characters/darthvader/

Yes he lost his true potential, which was stated and sourced by Gideon to be DOUBLE Palpatine's AFTER losing his arm, he lost 30-40% of his potential at best, still had a greater potential than Yoda and Sidious.

No.

- Did you forget that Darth Nihilus lifted a Cruiser from the surface of Malachor with his command of the Force? (Or you don't know?)

- Did you forget that Darth Jadus held together a ripped apart Cruiser with his command of the Force? (Or you don't know?)

- Malgus once faced a Jedi in combat who used the Force to collapse two buildings around Malgus's position with a chunk of debris falling over the Sith Lord.

Their would be more examples.

I'm confuesed first you say they are less powerful because they haven't been expanded upon yet (TOR is smaller than the Film Trilogies, it's been milked as far as it will be), now you're saying their feats are far superior? Giving those feats? Please! The only one good example you gave was Darth Nihilus, of course he's about Yoda's superior, only slightly less powerful than Vitiate, who's slightly less powerful than Plagueis, who's slightly less powerful the DE Sidious.

Grievous is a (non) Force-sensitive with no defence against Force based attacks. Remember that Force push of Obi-Wan which send Grievous packing away from him?

But Obi-Wan never demonstrated the capability to crush Grevious' entire sternum in combat.

Those ships (I assume to be C-9979 landing craft, if I recall correctly) weren't as large as Star Destroyers. And this feat is from Non-CGI 2D CW medium, which ridiculously overpowered characters. TOR era characters have not been featured in this medium yet.

And they never will be.

Mace and Yoda were the strongest Jedi during PT period. No doubts about this. They certainly rank among the elites of the Jedi Order in history.

Each of them are the strongest in history, Dooku as a Jedi, Obi-Wan, and Anakin were at or above Revan and Satele Shan. They just never demonstrated mastery of Tutaminis or Force heal, yet fodder Jedi of the CW demonstrated Force heal in the novels and many other Force powers never demonstrated in the novelizations or films in the cartoon and animated series on top of the novels and games from that era.

No, he wasn't. Revan once destroyed an entire army of Star Forge's battle droids. Interestingly, these battle droids were designed to match Jedi in combat.

Now you're exaggerating his feat, it was not an army, it was a small contingent, no super weapon was soloed either, Revan had help from entire battle cruisers with the Star Forge.

Also, Revan reached Darth Malak's position in the Star Forge unharmed after so much fighting.

Malak would be fodder compared to Dooku or Windu.

Good for him. I wonder how fast Revan was, keeping in mind his performance in the Star Forge.

I fully understand the importance of canon materials. However, Star Wars is ever-evolving platform and retcons occur in the process.

As far as prequels are concerned, you can write anything new made off by a statement like "the strongest in history." Trust me, the feats will continue to become more impressive. Doesn't mean whoever performs them is stronger. In fact, I would NOT even consider feats when comparing Anakin (strongest Force sensitive in history), Sidious (strongest Sith Lord in history), and Yoda (Strongest Jedi in history), because it wouldn't make sense to do so.

In one source, Yoda was described as extraordinarily powerful in the Force. In the same source, Luke wasn't.

Why do you think that is? Yoda couldn't possibly be stronger than Luke Skywalker could he? 😛 Although I would argue that by the LOTF era Luke had surpassed Yoda as a master of the Light Side.

So lets just avoid getting in to this tricky situation.

And just wank whatever era is more recent in Star Wars mythology? It's simply not true to claim the PT era doesn't have over a thousand years worth of knowledge TOR and access to a far more extensive array of Force powers as well as more overall Jedi in number and more powerful Jedi AND Sith (RO2), when it's stated to have these things. Feats aside.

No, he doesn't. 🙂

Revan have endured hundreds of years of torture; fought through armies of Mandalorians and Sith; and defeated extraordinarily powerful foes. Heck, his knowledge paved way for Sith to become strong once again after a long period.

His knowledge helped one Sith out, Bane. Bane's study wasn't nearly as thorough as Plagueis' anyway, who knew of Vitiate and Revan and everything else in history, and practiced these teachings.

Revan is above the likes of Maul, Dooku and Vader. Sorry.

Yeah, he's stronger than Maul, weaker in the Force than Vader, and his powers when compared to Dooku are unknown.

Gideon's essay is outdated. Lot have changed afterwards.

Nothing has changed, the works he sourced still exist and TOR is HISTORY to these works, everything added in TOR builds upon PT Force users, nothing more.

You will be amazed by the disclosures in the new Star Wars The Old Republic Encyclopedia. When my copy will arrive, I will gladly do the honors.

You can use it as a playboy magazine for all I care, I have wookieepedia, which is the entire literature summarized for my convenience.

B/W do you know that Darth Plagueis have also been stated to be the strongest Sith Lord in history?

He was until DE.

So let us keep the "most powerful" arguments in the bag.

How about no.

I have DE in my possession.

Luke engaged Sidious in a lightsaber duel while Leia watched. During this duel, Luke disarmed Sidious. The latter then decided to conjure a Force Storm to destroy Luke and Leia and possibly more. However, Luke and Leia stopped him from doing so by using the Force Harmony technique.

Palpatine bested Luke hours earlier effortlessly, there's no way his powers multiplied a hundred fold...your explanation of what happened doesn't make any sense.

I don't remember correctly but Sidious was cut off from the Force or something?

His powers were mainly being concentrated on the Force Storm. A power which requires far more concentration for a single Sith Lord than the ritual on Nathema or the Sith Supernova Naga Sadow generated, though it requires less time and preparation than the two other rituals. But it can't just be created instantly like you claim it was, Palpatine must have been working on that hours before that duel even began.

Vaapad helped Mace go toe-to-toe with Sidious, as per ROTS novelization. Yes, Mace found an opening and exploited it.

No, Windu being stronger in the Force than Revan and a more powerful overall master of Lightsaber combat allowed him to go toe-to-toe with a Sidious who was rapidly losing his stamina in the Force.

Luke, by DE, wasn't stronger then Revan and Satele.

Luke was destroying AT-ATs and the Emperor's Sith Executes with mere hand gestures. I would go as far as to say he was Windu's equal by DE. He was stronger in the Force than most Jedi, obviously with more potential than Sidious, and he had six years of training
(with far more access to Jedi knowledge) on his father by ROTS.

Windu alone could handle Sidious as he had shown. He was alone after the 3 Jedi Masters were struck down.

Yet he was pushed back immediately, expending every ounce of his energy to keep up with Sidious, before they both plateaus, and Windu physically overpowered Sidious after finding an opening through his shatterpoint vision. Windu was in his prime, Sidious was far from his prime, that's why Windu wouldn't have won if Sidious had started fresh.

Yes, I can understand the limitations imposed by old age. But Palpatine still had lot in him;

The shadow he fought, that blur of speed-could that be Palpatine? (ROTS Novel)

&

He could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so could the blur of Sith he faced; in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear. (ROTS Novel)

He had enough to wear Windu out, and that's exactly what he did, using up everything he had left.

Dolos
Nothing has changed, the works he sourced still exist and TOR is HISTORY to these works, everything added in TOR builds upon PT Force users, nothing more.

This, in a nutshell. The problem is that while newer works traditionally retcon older works in lieu of cohesion, TOR chronologically precedes Emperor Palpatine, which means that it may not a change a thing.

Dolos
You can use it as a playboy magazine for all I care, I have wookieepedia, which is the entire literature summarized for my convenience.

Wookieepedia isn't a canon source, though it can be useful if its statements are cited. It's always preferable around here to draw upon the actual source material. Having said that, The Old Republic Encyclopedia is written entirely in-universe according to its authors. It is by no means binding or authoritative.

Originally posted by Dolos
I think Wookieepedia copied that text directly from Labyrinth of Evil, if not it was from one of the Encyclopedias, most likely the Dark Side sourcebook. That was not a random editor's writing. It just wasn't.

Originally posted by Dolos
Yes he lost his true potential, which was stated and sourced by Gideon to be DOUBLE Palpatine's AFTER losing his arm, he lost 30-40% of his potential at best, still had a greater potential than Yoda and Sidious.

Originally posted by Dolos
I'm confuesed first you say they are less powerful because they haven't been expanded upon yet (TOR is smaller than the Film Trilogies, it's been milked as far as it will be), now you're saying their feats are far superior? Giving those feats?

Originally posted by Dolos
Please! The only one good example you gave was Darth Nihilus, of course he's about Yoda's superior, only slightly less powerful than Vitiate, who's slightly less powerful than Plagueis, who's slightly less powerful the DE Sidious.

Feats wise (in no specific order);

- Vitiate broke largest number of Force-wielders in one place with his telekinetic powers; 8000 Sith Lords simultaneously.

- Sidious could wreak havoc with his Force Storms; he did lot of damage to Coruscant with this power once. He would also have wiped out an entire fleet with this deadly power, if Luke and Leia had not stopped him.

- Nihilus destroyed an entire planet with his Force-draining powers.

So we have at least 3 Sith Lords who have set records.

Among these 3 Sith Lords; Nihilus hadn't been promoted much in terms of power. I blame KoTOR 2 authors for this laziness/lack of attention. Darth Nihilus is one of least explored characters in Star Wars lore unfortunately. Due to this reason, his feat of destroying a planet was regarded as a rumor in Star Wars The Complete Encyclopedia. The source which revealed this feat is titled Unseen Unheard. So Darth Nihilus remains a stuff of legend in terms of power-ranking. And end-result was that Sidious remained unchallenged in terms of promotion in the Star Wars The Complete Enyclopedia.

However, SWTOR authors aren't making this mistake. They are promoting Vitiate in a good manner. So it remains to be seen that how this character pans out in terms of promotion in a nuetral source. However, politics within Lucas Arts, isn't very nuetral towards EU characters.

It is possible that Sidious may still be touted as the most powerful practitioner of the dark side but this still does not changes much for him in versus debates; this accolade doesn't makes him invincible in combat. As both Mace and Luke have bested him in combat and they were less powerful. It is possible that more individuals can defeat him in combat. Star Wars is a dynamic world. This is my ultimate agenda in these debates.

Power helps when disparity is great. However, when disparity isn't great; then fights can get interesting.

----------------

Also, it seems like I did not elaborate on Darth Jadus's feat properly before;

Darth Jadus prevented [Color]disintegration[/Color] of an Imperial Cruiser in space with his power in the Force to keep himself alive. This is one bad@ss telekinetic feat.

Originally posted by Dolos
But Obi-Wan never demonstrated the capability to crush Grevious' entire sternum in combat.

Originally posted by Dolos
And they never will be.

Originally posted by Dolos
Each of them are the strongest in history,

Originally posted by Dolos
Dooku as a Jedi, Obi-Wan, and Anakin were at or above Revan and Satele Shan.

To understand the power of Revan and Satate, it is important to focus on their combat history and how good their opponents were.

Darth Malgus: (One of the greatest opponents of Satele Shan)

http://www.swtor.com/info/media/trailers/return

This duel ended with Malgus emerging victorious. The Jedi Master he cut down was extraordinarily talented in lightsaber dueling arts and his command of the Force was also impressive (as you can see in this footage). Malgus's Master was no match for Darach in the Force despite packing strong defensive abilities (He easily tolerated a direct missile hit and absorbed its blast as an example). Later on, Darach hurled a Starship Engine towards Malgus like a missile. And even this formidable attack didn't stop Malgus; such was his strength. So if Malgus could bring down such a powerful Jedi Master in his junior days; think about it that how strong he would have been during his battle in Aldeeran.

http://www.swtor.com/info/media/trailers/hope-cinematic-trailer

You see what kind of feats Satele performed as a Jedi Knight in this duel?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
1. Just upon landing, unleashed a special power which killed 3 Sith Marauders simultaneously;
2. Charged towards Malgus with knocking out pretty much everything in her path as if they were nothing;
3. Ripped through the foundation of a large tree causing it to fall (large trees are very heavy and strong, mind you);
4. Combined her dueling skills with stunning speed and acrobatics to escape from death-like situations (Count Dooku struggles against acrobatics, mind you);
5. Stopped a lightsaber blow with bare hands;
6. And then Force-dominated Malgus (a very powerful Sith Lord, mind you), destroying a gigantic boulder in the process (gigantic boulders are mind-boggling heavy, mind you);

Malgus afterwards faced two more Jedi on the same planet but at a different place. This battle has been explored in a source called The Third Lesson.

During this battle, a Jedi Master collapsed two buildings on the position of Malgus. The Sith Lord was trapped within a mountain of rubble with a chunk of it landing on top of him. However, Malgus prevented tons of rubble from crushing him. He then blew that heavy rubble apart and climbed out of the mountain of rubble to fight the Jedi. The duel was very intense. During the fight, Malgus sensed presence of another Jedi nearby even though this Jedi has masked his connection with the Force (But Malgus's telepathic abilities were amazing); he send the Jedi Master packing with a Force-augmented kick; used the Force to pull the hidden Jedi out from his place of hiding; and crushed his windpipe. The Jedi Master once again attempted to subdue Malgus but the latter Sith unleashed such a powerful blast of Force Lightning that couldn't be repelled by even two lightsabers and this burst of Force Lightning mortally wounded the Jedi Master who died from his injuries afterwards. This entire performance after Malgus was mortally wounded from his battle with Satele Shan; very impressive.

So now try to comprehend that how powerful Satele Shan would have become when she became the Grand Jedi Master. She could also perform shatterpoints like Mace and Luke, blow droids from inside-out like Luke, and even survive in space by using the Force (unlike anyone; if memory serves me correctly).

Revan:

Meetra's assessment of Revan:

It was easy to understand how Scourge could be drawn to him; Revan's command of the Force was greater than that of anyone else she had ever met.

Keep in mind that Meetra have contended with Sith Triumvirate. Still need any explanation?

About Darth Sion;

This left him in eternal pain, his broken body held together only by his hatred and power of the dark side. Sion was exceedingly difficult to kill, because his mastery over his own body granted him supernatural vitality. (Star Wars The Complete Encyclopedia)

&

Kriea confronted Darth Sion in order to ensure that Exile would be able to escape. She barely survived the encounter, in which she lost the use of one hand. (Star Wars The Complete Encyclopedia)

About Darth Traya;

After the Jedi Exile traveled to Onderon and defeated General Vaklu, Kriea realized her "pupil" was growing in strength and would become a threat to her truimverate of power. She tried to kill her on Dantoonie but fled. After the deaths of Darth Nihilus and Darth Sion, Darth Traya was the only surviving member of her Order, and she lost her life in her final showdown with the Jedi Exile. (Star Wars The Complete Encyclopedia)

Keep in mind that Darth Traya WTFpwned those 3 Jedi Masters who attempted to punish Meetra Surik after the Jedi Civil War.

Lord Scourge, was an expert swordsman, and matched Meetra Surik in strength. This was apparent from his accomplishments as he had killed hundreds of Force-wielders during his life-time. He could cipher energies from (organic) opponents to fuel his own power during his duels.

Both Lord Scourge and Meetra Surik, depite being FAR ABOVE AVERAGE, stood no chance against an extraordinarily powerful Force-wielder; Darth Nyriss (who was plotting to overthrow the Sith Emperor). And when Darth Nryiss engaged Revan in combat; she was destroyed. This shows how powerful Revan was (Champion of the Jedi Order); able to blitz through entire armies; being able to draw power from both the light and dark sides of the Force simultaneously; handling heavy objects like fodder; and vice versa.

Bro, you have no clue of what you are talking about. Yoda and Mace are the only two Jedi from PT era who can contend with Revan and Satele. Others cannot regardless of all the verbal fellatos.

Originally posted by Dolos
They just never demonstrated mastery of Tutaminis or Force heal,

Originally posted by Dolos
yet fodder Jedi of the CW demonstrated Force heal in the novels

Dooku, Revan and Yoda could absorb and deflect Sith powers such as Force Lightning with bare hands. Revan specially tanked an extremely lethal blast of Force Lightning from Darth Nyriss with bare hands as if it was nothing. He is apparently most proficient in Tutaminis among these 3 individuals.

Satele was also so proficient in Tutaminis that she prevented a lightsaber penetration in to her body with her bare hands. No one has demonstrated this feat thus far, if memory serves me correctly. Gallen was once wrongly suggested to have done so but TFU novel disproved this hypothesis.

As far as Jedi Healing techniques are concerned; Revan was so proficient in these abilities that he could heal severe injuries with the Force without the need of medical attention. I don't know much about Satele in this regard.

Originally posted by Dolos
and many other Force powers never demonstrated in the novelizations or films in the cartoon and animated series on top of the novels and games from that era.

Originally posted by Dolos
Now you're exaggerating his feat, it was not an army, it was a small contingent, no super weapon was soloed either, Revan had help from entire battle cruisers with the Star Forge.

In a cut-scene; a Sith Commander stationed on the Star Forge pointed out that Revan destroyed the entire army of the Star Forge's battle droids. Afterwards, Malak ordered the Sith Commander to send huge number of Sith forces stationed on the Star Forge towards Revan.

Originally posted by Dolos
Malak would be fodder compared to Dooku or Windu.

I would refrain from making these kinds of conclusions in the absence of canonized depiction of final duel between Revan and Malak.

It was stated in the official databank that Malak had grown in power to such a degree by this time that he was "nearly unstoppable" during this event.

Also, Drew (The mastermind behind KoTOR 1) hinted in one of his newsletters that this duel was very intense. Imagine.

Prior to this event, Malak single-handedly fought the trio of Revan, Bastilla and Carth onboard his flagship Leviathan; and not just survived but also imprisoned Bastilla. During this fight, Malak easily countered Carth's firing from close-distance; stunned both him and Bastilla with the Force to take on Revan; immobilized Revan with his Force powers on two occasions during this duel; defended against a Saber Throw attack from Bastilla; and subdued her in combat in the end. Very impressive.

Originally posted by Dolos
As far as prequels are concerned, you can write anything new made off by a statement like "the strongest in history." Trust me, the feats will continue to become more impressive. Doesn't mean whoever performs them is stronger. In fact, I would NOT even consider feats when comparing Anakin (strongest Force sensitive in history), Sidious (strongest Sith Lord in history), and Yoda (Strongest Jedi in history), because it wouldn't make sense to do so.

Another good example which suggests that power is not everything: Exar Kun's spirit WTFpwned Luke when the two met on Yavin IV. It took all of Luke's students to save him and destroy Exar Kun's spirit. This is part of NJO lore, I presume.

Sidious > Exar Kun (Correct?)

Unless disparity is great; power alone is not the deciding factor. Talents can make difference.

Also, you have jumped to conclusions without giving attention to the recent picture.

Conflicting promotions have emerged within Star Wars lore about the strongest practitioners of the light and dark sides; two factions are in competition now; Ancient and RO2.

Ancient Camp:

Marka Ragnos is the first character to be promoted from this camp; but only in one source, if I recall correctly. Afterwards, as the lore has been further expanded, Vitiate is now being promoted as the strongest Sith Lord ever from this camp; stated to have surpassed all ancient Sith Lords in power in Star Wars The Old Republic Revan and touted as the strongest Sith Lord ever in Star Wars The Old Republic Encyclopedia. To further cement Vitiate's reputation, many exceptionally powerful Force-wielders have been depicted, serving him in his Empire.

KoTOR 2 also attempted to glorify the ancients and introduced to us the mysterious Darth Nihilus who has pushed boundaries with his titanic feats.

I think that Tulak Hord is also getting some sort of push. But Vitiate is getting significant promotion thus far.

RO2 Camp:

From the RO2 camp; Sidious is the first Sith Lord to get significant promotion. And recently Plagueis got some push on the same lines.

----------------

Similar is the situation among the Jedi:-

- Revan (Recently touted as the greatest champion of the Jedi Order)
- Satele (Promotion under progress)
- Hero of Tython (Expectedly will get Luke like push)

----------------

So we can note that several authors are competing with each other in this aspect. And Lucas Arts is allowing this to happen. Star Wars will be boring without creative liberties.

Therefore, caution is adviced.

A proper continuity based Star Wars literature does not exists to date unfortunately. I suggest that we adopt wait and see policy; much can change in the future. Now that Disney is getting involved; new developments will be more interesting.

Originally posted by Dolos
Why do you think that is? Yoda couldn't possibly be stronger than Luke Skywalker could he? 😛 Although I would argue that by the LOTF era Luke had surpassed Yoda as a master of the Light Side.

Also, Gallen, who is almost worshipped by some in terms of power, is only stated to be a powerful Force-wielder in this source.

I think that Lucas Arts staff is biased towards Sidious and Yoda. Very unfortunate, if true.

Though what puzzles me is that Bane and Revan almost got entry in the Ghosts of Mortis episode from among all of the EU characters.

Originally posted by Dolos
And just wank whatever era is more recent in Star Wars mythology? It's simply not true to claim the PT era doesn't have over a thousand years worth of knowledge TOR and access to a far more extensive array of Force powers as well as more overall Jedi in number and more powerful Jedi AND Sith (RO2), when it's stated to have these things. Feats aside.

Also, their is no hard and fast rule that Jedi and Sith were becoming more powerful with passage of time. Power fluctated in both camps from era to era.

Originally posted by Dolos
His knowledge helped one Sith out, Bane. Bane's study wasn't nearly as thorough as Plagueis' anyway, who knew of Vitiate and Revan and everything else in history, and practiced these teachings.

Revan knew so much stuff that even the Sith Archives in Korriban did not contained as much information during Bane's time. No wonder, Revan's command of the Force was considered to be exceptional by his peers.

Of-course, Vitiate would have been well-known, as he has history with the Jedi. However, it isn't proved that his knowledge was fully known as well. Plagueis acknowledged that Vitiate was the only Sith Lord to come close to achieving true immortality. But Plagueis started his own experiment in this regard. Heck, Plagueis rejected the notion of Force Ghosts; very strange for a Sith Lord of such repute.

Yes, Sidious, attempted to uncover some lost information.

Originally posted by Dolos
Yeah, he's stronger than Maul, weaker in the Force than Vader, and his powers when compared to Dooku are unknown.

Continued.......

Both Dooku and Vader are immensely overhyped. Yoda would have easily killed Dooku, if he had really tried, but his good nature prevented him from doing so.

Vader have some impressive feats. However, he is one of the most deeply explored characters of Star Wars as well.

Originally posted by Dolos
Nothing has changed, the works he sourced still exist and TOR is HISTORY to these works, everything added in TOR builds upon PT Force users, nothing more.

Do me a favor; do no try to make so much sense of Star Wars. You will almost suffer a headache. Just enjoy it.

Originally posted by Dolos
You can use it as a playboy magazine for all I care, I have wookieepedia, which is the entire literature summarized for my convenience.

This made my day.

Originally posted by Dolos
He was until DE.

Originally posted by Dolos
How about no.

This whole power thing is good for fanboyism. Nothing else.

Originally posted by Dolos
Palpatine bested Luke hours earlier effortlessly, there's no way his powers multiplied a hundred fold...your explanation of what happened doesn't make any sense.

I still cannot make sense of what has been depicted in ROTS.

Originally posted by Dolos
His powers were mainly being concentrated on the Force Storm. A power which requires far more concentration for a single Sith Lord than the ritual on Nathema or the Sith Supernova Naga Sadow generated, though it requires less time and preparation than the two other rituals. But it can't just be created instantly like you claim it was, Palpatine must have been working on that hours before that duel even began.

It took 10 days to prepare for the destruction of Nathema.

It is unclear that how much time it took Nihilus to prepare to destroy Katarr.

Originally posted by Dolos
No, Windu being stronger in the Force than Revan and a more powerful overall master of Lightsaber combat allowed him to go toe-to-toe with a Sidious who was rapidly losing his stamina in the Force.

Sidious was blurry in terms of speed throughout this duel until Mace found a shatterpoint and exploited it to gain advantage.

And Mace is not stronger then Revan. No source suggests this. However, both Mace and Revan have been promoted as Champions of the Jedi Order recently.

Originally posted by Dolos
Luke was destroying AT-ATs and the Emperor's Sith Executes with mere hand gestures. I would go as far as to say he was Windu's equal by DE. He was stronger in the Force than most Jedi, obviously with more potential than Sidious, and he had six years of training
(with far more access to Jedi knowledge) on his father by ROTS.

Originally posted by Dolos
Yet he was pushed back immediately, expending every ounce of his energy to keep up with Sidious, before they both plateaus, and Windu physically overpowered Sidious after finding an opening through his shatterpoint vision. Windu was in his prime, Sidious was far from his prime, that's why Windu wouldn't have won if Sidious had started fresh.

Originally posted by Dolos
He had enough to wear Windu out, and that's exactly what he did, using up everything he had left.

That's a lot of information for me to comment on, I will explain that I can understand your power vs disparity argument. And I believe Vitiate and Nihilus had the gap on power on a direct combat level, and Nihilus' abilities were comparable to the Overlords like Son and Father, instantly Force draining entire worlds with prodigious efficiency. I noticed this with Vitiate's instantaneous development and use of advanced Force powers that the likes of Darth Sidious wouldn't seem capable of a decade ago before even reaching his teen years, and without training. That makes Luke's instant learning look like a joke. Then you have Vitiate using only Arcane Magic Sith powers to make a Jedi (Revan) comparable to CW Windu and NJO Luke look like jokes.

Then you have Sidious being his name-sake per Sith Powers when compared to Vitiate. His methods were insidious, he was more powerful than his abilities on direct combat and control of the Force could possibly suggest. Doing things like creating the Dark Side wormhole and influencing the minds of billions, feeding off them slowly over time to fuel his vile experiments as he created monsters like the Chysalide Rancors and Executers comparable in power to Darth Vader by increasing their Force sensitivity and bestowing upon them Dark knowledge and power. Also implementing knowledge which wasn't thoroughly studied by his master Plagueis and Tenebrous, which could possibly have been apprehended upon conquering and gaining use to all information spanning the billions of worlds under Republic AKA Imperial control...powers such as essence transfer, mind domination, Force drain, Dark Side wormhole, seemingly above the Emperor's capacity pre--DE.

So perhaps they are both stronger than one another at the same time...and knowledge was lost and gained, and different. Power vs Disparity...there's a certain complexity to it, how Vader can beat Dooku and lose to Obi-wan, how mercenaries, assassins and troopers can take out powerful Jedi Masters and Sith Lords.

Nicely put, Dolos. Thanks.

UPDATE:

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
A proper continuity based Star Wars literature does not exists to date unfortunately. I suggest that we adopt wait and see policy; much can change in the future. Now that Disney is getting involved; new developments will be more interesting.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Essential-Readers-Companion-Star/dp/0345511190

This book has been written in real-world perspective. No Sith Lord has been declared most powerful in history/ever in this book.

Vitiate has been officially recognized to have accomplished immortality.

-----------------

EVIL LAUGH 😈

Originally posted by Dolos
Palpatine bested Luke hours earlier effortlessly, there's no way his powers multiplied a hundred fold...your explanation of what happened doesn't make any sense.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Both Dooku and Vader are immensely overhyped.

Not really. Dooku was not only one of the most powerful Jedi in the Order's history but an even more powerful Sith Lord.

Vader was likely even more powerful than Count Dooku. (Or at least on par with him in an all out).

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yoda would have easily killed Dooku,

What do you mean "would have"?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
if he had really tried, but his good nature prevented him from doing so.

Where are you getting all this from, that he didn't really try??

There would be nothing good about his nature if that were true. All that would prove is he had a very reckless and selfish nature considering what was at stake.

Yoda would beat Dooku in a fight to the finish. No doubt. But it would not be with any kind of ease as Proven in AOTC.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
First time, Palpatine was at a Dark Side nexus.

👆

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Not really. Dooku was not only one of the most powerful Jedi in the Order's history but an even more powerful Sith Lord.

As an example: in SWTOR official forum, a debate about Sith Lords took place in which many suggested that no EU character one could be a match for Vader let alone Sidious. Fortunately, one member gave the example of Gallen to prove that Vader is not all-powerful. The entire debate was filled with sickening arguments and misconceptions.

People literally worship Vader and think that he is an all-powerful being who cannot be challenged by any one else when Star Wars lore itself proves otherwise. And Lucas never intended Vader to be projected like a Force-God but rather a man with flaws.

Dooku is a well-defined character but also overhyped. We have now seen young Jedi Knights in EU lore matching or surpassing Dooku's combat prowess. Star Wars is evolving but mindsets of some are not.

Dooku maybe held in high esteem by PT era Council but this doesn't proves that he is among the ELITE. Not any more.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Vader was likely even more powerful than Count Dooku. (Or at least on par with him in an all out).

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
What do you mean "would have"?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Where are you getting all this from, that he didn't really try??

Recheck Yoda's actions in the battle of Geonosis. Yoda purely adopted defensive posture when Dooku used his Force powers on him. Afterwards, when Yoda got the opportunity to disarm Dooku in a lightsaber duel, Dooku found an opportunity to prevent Yoda from doing so by making Anakin and Obi-Wan vulnerable with his Force powers and Yoda attended to that.

Also, you remember what Yoda said to Dooku during this fight?

"Much to learn you still have."

This is sufficient hint that Yoda's understanding of the Force was vastly superior to that of Dooku.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
There would be nothing good about his nature if that were true. All that would prove is he had a very reckless and selfish nature considering what was at stake.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yoda would beat Dooku in a fight to the finish. No doubt. But it would not be with any kind of ease as Proven in AOTC.

Try to understand that both Sidious and Yoda were much stronger then Dooku.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yes, they are. I see this hype almost everywhere.

As an example: in SWTOR official forum, a debate about Sith Lords took place in which many suggested that no EU character one could be a match for Vader let alone Sidious. Fortunately, one member gave the example of Gallen to prove that Vader is not all-powerful. The entire debate was filled with sickening arguments and misconceptions.

People literally worship Vader and think that he is an all-powerful being who cannot be challenged by any one else when Star Wars lore itself proves otherwise. And Lucas never intended Vader to be projected like a Force-God but rather a man with flaws.

Wow, really? The guy who got his ass kicked by his poorly-trained son? Who died to a few seconds of Sidious' lightning?

This is why Tempest is overly harsh on you. You're not a fall-out idiot imo.

Star Wars Insider #62 attributes Luke's success against Vader to being an extraordinarily quick study:

In his duel against Darth Vader on Bespin, Luke Skywalker reveals himself as an extraordinarily gifted artist with the blade who has largely taught himself. After a single brief session with Obi-Wan Kenobi years ago, and only a short time with Yoda, Skywalker is able to hold up against a Dark Lord of the Sith at the height of his powers.

In his final assault on Vader, Luke Skywalker mirrors Vader's own Form V technique and responds with a furious demonstration of Form V's raw strength. An observing Jedi Master would be astonished at such instantaneous learning in battle.

By the time of the Battle of Endor, Luke Skywalker has studied some lightsaber technique from Obi-Wan's journal and greatly advanced his abilities. Without a Master, such advancement would be nearly impossible for most, but Skywalker's unparalleled aptitude makes him a match for Darth Vader in their fateful duel onboard the Second Death Star.

But Skywalker's skill at blaster deflection is highly refined, and his lightsaber technique is so superb that he is able to duel the Dark Lord on even footing—and finally able to defeat a man who is a powerful living product of the ancient Jedi sword traditions from time immemorial. Such an achievement with little formal training is a testament to Skywalker's innate abilities and instinctive skill.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Yoda never wanted to kill Dooku. He respected him so much.

Yeah sure. Yoda has nothing but respect for Jedi turned Sith Lords.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
No, Yoda didn't really tried.

I've heard this a lot from people in this forum, but it all comes from pure speculation, with nothing concrete to back it up at all.

They fought. Yoda won, but didn't stomp with any kind ease. That's what happened.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Recheck Yoda's actions in the battle of Geonosis. Yoda purely adopted defensive posture when Dooku used his Force powers on him.

Yeah so, he was on the defense. The fact that he deflected a shot back at Dooku's face shows he was willing to hurt him.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Afterwards, when Yoda got the opportunity to disarm Dooku in a lightsaber duel, Dooku found an opportunity to prevent Yoda from doing so by making Anakin and Obi-Wan vulnerable with his Force powers and Yoda attended to that.

Yeah after an intense Lightsaber battle Dooku fled. I'm not sure what your point is.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Also, you remember what Yoda said to Dooku during this fight?

"Much to learn you still have."

This is sufficient hint that Yoda's understanding of the Force was vastly superior to that of Dooku.

He intimidated him in battle. What does Yoda have to say about Dooku's abilities when he's not around? Oh that right.. That Dooku was the Temple's "Strongest Student," and "MOST LEARNED in the ways of the Force."

Oh and that fighting Dooku was good enough to put his Fencing skills in shape for a good long while. Clearly not someone he thought was an easy fight.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What? Yoda had reckless and selfish nature? Any basis for this absurd assumption?

Well yeah according to your theory he would be. Letting the Clone Wars break out because he didn't want to try to stop Dooku because he just respected him too much!

And then he lectures Obi-Wan on killing Anakin? So what Yoda's a hypocrite now? Please.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
AOTC proves nothing.

Lol. Yeah it's only a G-Canon source which showed them fight. What kind of proof is that?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yoda would have subdued Dooku with his Force powers without much difficulty, if he wanted to. But he did not try.

Seriously your making Yoda out to be a complete Douchebag.

It's fairly obvious when one compares Yoda's fight with Dooku that he was far less aggressive with the Count than with the Emperor in ROTS.

That said, the idea that it would be a curbstomp or that Dooku isn't one of history's strongest Sith Lords is... silly.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well yeah according to your theory he would be. Letting the Clone Wars break out because he didn't want to try to stop Dooku because he just respected him too much!

This actually happened with Windu btw.

Originally posted by Nephthys
This actually happened with Windu btw.

What happened?

That Windu didn't kill Dooku from behind? Well yeah it's not usually a Jedi's opening move especially on a former Jedi. Also Windu had serious doubts that Dooku had turned to the Dark Side.

Even Yoda only knew for sure after he confronted him, "Powerful you have become Dooku, The Darkside I sense in you."

In Shatterpoint Windu reveals that he saw the Clone Wars occurring in Dooku's shatterpoints and that he could have stopped it if he just stabbed him on the coliseum balcony. But he hesitated because it was Dooku and the universe burned for it.