^ Yeah I know. And he regretted that. Because it was clearly a mistake.
Bear in mind his hesitation was before the murder of hundreds of Jedi and in an opportunity to strike a former friend him from behind.
I'm sure Mace/Yoda must have "respected" and been friends with many of those murdered Jedi enough to want to bring justice to the Count.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nephthys's point is that their close relationship with Dooku frustrated their efforts to kill him. It's a resonant point that is reflected throughout their various confrontations in the films and EU.Yoda definitely did not "go all out" on Dooku.
I can see that. After all he seemed to be attempting to stop Dooku escaping.
But I get frustrated when people take Yoda's somewhat holding back to the extreme and make out Yoda could have easily and completely stomped him anytime he wanted, just chose not to.
That not only makes Yoda seem like an idiot but also seems to be an attempt to completely nullify the Count's greatest feat which is going toe to toe with Yoda.
Originally posted by Nephthys
In Shatterpoint Windu reveals that he saw the Clone Wars occurring in Dooku's shatterpoints and that he could have stopped it if he just stabbed him on the coliseum balcony. But he hesitated because it was Dooku and the universe burned for it.
Only half-joking here, but Windu must have really loved Dooku.
In one fashion or another.
Almost how Anakin would knowingly, and regrettably attempt to sacrifice countless lives, in the process to save Padme.
Strangely, you could almost say that Windu's passion, actually got the better of him?
I wonder if this points out a human flaw in him - or if Vapaad had something to do with it. Hmm.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah sure. Yoda has nothing but respect for Jedi turned Sith Lords.
Yoda held back during his confrontation with Dooku on Geonosis and attempted to reason with Dooku on Vjun.
Try to comprehend.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I've heard this a lot from people in this forum, but it all comes from pure speculation, with nothing concrete to back it up at all.They fought. Yoda won, but didn't stomp with any kind ease. That's what happened.
In contrast, Dooku did exactly the opposite.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah so, he was on the defense. The fact that he deflected a shot back at Dooku's face shows he was willing to hurt him.
Remember when Dooku initially threw parts of the stony ceiling on Yoda; the Jedi Master didn't hurl those stones back at Dooku in response?
Clearly, Yoda was restraining himself and was on the defensive.
Yes, when Dooku unleashed his Force Lightning on Yoda; the Jedi Master became a bit serious and deflected it back at him. However, Yoda knew that Dooku's Lightning would not kill its source upon contact. So it was a safe move.
The second move eventually convinced Dooku to stop using his Force powers on Yoda. Imagine! If Yoda had gone all-out?
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah after an intense Lightsaber battle Dooku fled. I'm not sure what your point is.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He intimidated him in battle. What does Yoda have to say about Dooku's abilities when he's not around? Oh that right.. That Dooku was the Temple's "Strongest Student," and "MOST LEARNED in the ways of the Force."
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh and that fighting Dooku was good enough to put his Fencing skills in shape for a good long while. Clearly not someone he thought was an easy fight.
- Dooku used his Force powers
- Dooku put his lightsaber skills to good use
- Dooku used the surroundings to his advantage
We didn't see Yoda doing all of this. We didn't see Yoda being interested in taking Dooku out early on. Of-course, power disparity between the two wasn't so great that I would use the word 'enormous'. Dooku is impressive IMO. However, Yoda had the capability to put him out of commission much quicker then the whole duel lasted. In short, Yoda is upper tier.
From real-world perspective; GL wanted to promote the character of Dooku and the strategy worked. The fight was depicted in such a manner that neither Yoda and nor Dooku looked weak.
However, Yoda was apparently noticeably stronger. This (intended) message was conveyed by in following manner:
1. Yoda commented that Dooku still had lot to learn.
2. Yoda showed restraint in this encounter.
Try to see through the glass.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well yeah according to your theory he would be. Letting the Clone Wars break out because he didn't want to try to stop Dooku because he just respected him too much!
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And then he lectures Obi-Wan on killing Anakin? So what Yoda's a hypocrite now? Please.
[Theory Phase]It is also possible that Dooku's beheading at the hands of Anakin was not appreciated by Yoda. So when Anakin turned Sith; Yoda decided that he shouldn't be shown mercy either.[/Theory Phase]
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Lol. Yeah it's only a G-Canon source which showed them fight. What kind of proof is that?
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Seriously your making Yoda out to be a complete Douchebag.
Personally I think that Yoda didn't attack Dooku with the Force because of his personal philosophy not to use it aggressively, "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense. Never for attack."
But then you have more than a few examples of him using it offensively, so maybe people just don't remember that quote too much.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Personally I think that Yoda didn't attack Dooku with the Force because of his personal philosophy not to use it aggressively, "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense. Never for attack."But then you have more than a few examples of him using it offensively, so maybe people just don't remember that quote too much.
He did go on the offensive when he felt the need to. Though, he is not aggressive, personality wise.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yoda wanted to turn Dooku back to light.
Yoda held back during his confrontation with Dooku on Geonosis and attempted to reason with Dooku on Vjun.
Try to comprehend.
Yoda didn't go all-out on Dooku with his Force powers. He didn't attempt to use the surroundings to his advantage either. This is why.
In contrast, Dooku did exactly the opposite.
Yoda's intention was to discourage Dooku from using his Force powers. The strategy obviously worked.
Remember when Dooku initially threw parts of the stony ceiling on Yoda; the Jedi Master didn't hurl those stones back at Dooku in response?
Clearly, Yoda was restraining himself and was on the defensive.
Yes, when Dooku unleashed his Force Lightning on Yoda; the Jedi Master became a bit serious and deflected it back at him. However, Yoda knew that Dooku's Lightning would not kill its source upon contact. So it was a safe move.
The second move eventually convinced Dooku to stop using his Force powers on Yoda. Imagine! If Yoda had gone all-out?
Yes, Yoda did show Dooku that he was not on a vacation during this lightsaber duel. However, Dooku used the surroundings to his advantage and managed to escape.
It could be Dun Moch; but the point is that Yoda wasn't trying his best in this duel. If Yoda had gone all-out on Dooku; the latter would have stood no chance at all.
Issue is that we see Dooku do everything in this fight to ensure his survival/victory.
- Dooku used his Force powers
- Dooku put his lightsaber skills to good use
- Dooku used the surroundings to his advantage
We didn't see Yoda doing all of this. We didn't see Yoda being interested in taking Dooku out early on. Of-course, power disparity between the two wasn't so great that I would use the word 'enormous'. Dooku is impressive IMO. However, Yoda had the capability to put him out of commission much quicker then the whole duel lasted. In short, Yoda is upper tier.
From real-world perspective; GL wanted to promote the character of Dooku and the strategy worked. The fight was depicted in such a manner that neither Yoda and nor Dooku looked weak.
However, Yoda was apparently noticeably stronger. This (intended) message was conveyed by in following manner:
1. Yoda commented that Dooku still had lot to learn.
2. Yoda showed restraint in this encounter.
Try to see through the glass.
Clone Wars came as a surprise to many. And Dooku joined the separatists in secrecy. Mace came to know about Dooku's future plans but he did nothing either.
By that time; Yoda had finally realized the gravity of the threat posed by these Sith. Many Jedi died during the Clone Wars and this may have frustrated Yoda or something.
[Theory Phase]It is also possible that Dooku's beheading at the hands of Anakin was not appreciated by Yoda. So when Anakin turned Sith; Yoda decided that he shouldn't be shown mercy either.[/Theory Phase]
See above.
Yoda was not without his flaws. He was wise and very powerful but he wasn't aggressive and/or a brilliant tactician.
I probably shouldn't get involved - but I feel I must come to DARTH POWER's aid (the same as when Vader suddenly got involved in Palpatine's electrocution of Luke)
DARTH POWER brought up good points about Yoda's fight with Dooku.
I think I even at one point summed up some good thoughts on it:
Originally posted by Rookwood
I said that Yoda could not pacify Dooku in the duel easily, in any kind of way.The Republic was at stake; war loomed on the horizon that could claim billions of innocent lives, and Yoda was face to face with (at the time) the main cog and General of that driving force.
If Yoda (as Mace pointed out of himself in Shatterpoint) could have killed or at least injured Dooku and captured him, the war could have been prevented.
But Dooku was too powerful and skilled for Yoda to even pacify through the simple act of a simple cut to the leg, that would have been incapacitating - but non-life threatening, and would not have even caused amputation.Logic and common sense, dictates he couldn't defeat him within those 37 seconds they fought.
Yoda could not pacify the Count if he wanted to and so Dooku fought him off and escaped to avoid the reinforcements that were on their way.
It would take a very difficult fight for (Rusty) Yoda at that time, to defeat Count Dooku either through pacification (severing of a limb/TK) or death.
The lives of countless innocent women, children and babies, stacked against this decision, are partially testament to this fact.
(AotC) Yoda fought Dooku for 37 seconds - and could not even lay a simple cut on him, that would (harmlessly) incapacitate him like it did with Obi-wan.
Yoda can't do it in that amount of time. Reinforcements of Clones are on the way, and Dooku makes his departure.
According to Logic - IF Yoda cared about Billions of innocent women, children and babies (And we know he does.) then IF he could defeat Dooku, IF he could - then he could have inflicted a harmless cut on his leg (seen above) and save all the innocent people he cares about.
With no damage to Dooku.
But he couldn't defeat Dooku with that kind of ease.
DARTH POWER is essentially correct - Yoda would beat Dooku - but not within that time frame - and Yoda could not defeat Dooku in that particular foray.
Much Logic and Common Sense dictate, that Yoda had no reason not to deliver a harmless incapacitating blow, that would save the lives of billions of innocent children and babies.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
That doesn't follow. We have ironclad proof that Windu made the same error in the arena and he later laments in Shatterpoint that his affection for Dooku blinded him to the danger he posed.There's no reason to conclude Yoda would be any different.
I thought about that - but whereas Yoda could inflict a simple incapacitating cut with his blade and be done with it - AotC Mace Windu would not have what it would take to defeat Dooku like that.
He would likely lose. Whereas for Yoda, it's the exact opposite.
So Windu's situation is actually somewhat moot.
Originally posted by Rookwood
I thought about that - but whereas Yoda could inflict a simple incapacitating cut with his blade and be done with it - AotC Mace Windu would not have what it would take to defeat Dooku like that.He would likely lose. Whereas for Yoda, it's the exact opposite.
So Windu's situation is actually somewhat moot.
It's really not when you consider that Windu had the element of complete surprise as an advantage. Based on what we see, Dooku didn't have the foggiest idea Windu was there. But rather than cut him down or inflict "a simple incapacitating cut" or even point his blade at Dooku, Windu chose to threaten not only a far less dangerous man, but one for whom he had no affection.
Shatterpoint makes an explicit issue of this: Windu's decision damned the galaxy to war and left billions to die. Jedi make bad decisions with moral repercussions often, even at critical moments. There is no reason to think that Yoda, whose affection for Dooku in all likelihood ran considerably deeper (Yoda: Dark Rendezvous, anyone?), would not come into play.
Anything to the contrary is a weak argument and falsely presumes Jedi are incapable of boneheaded decisions.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
It's really not when you consider that Windu had the element of complete surprise as an advantage. Based on what we see, Dooku didn't have the foggiest idea Windu was there. But rather than cut him down or inflict "a simple incapacitating cut" or even point his blade at Dooku, Windu chose to threaten not only a far less dangerous man, but one for whom he had no affection.Shatterpoint makes an explicit issue of this: Windu's decision damned the galaxy to war and left billions to die. Jedi make bad decisions with moral repercussions often, even at critical moments. There is no reason to think that Yoda, whose affection for Dooku in all likelihood ran considerably deeper (Yoda: Dark Rendezvous, anyone?), would not come into play.
Anything to the contrary is a weak argument and falsely presumes Jedi are incapable of boneheaded decisions.
If what Windu felt was quite literal - why not inflict an incapacitating cut on the Count?
Originally posted by Tzeentch._
And what purpose would inflicting an incapacitating cut serve?
I apologize for not elaborating.
I meant, why not deliver an incapacitating cut, and then perhaps (if possible) capture the Count and escape with him/kill Jango afterwards and hold the incapacitated Count there.
Seems somewhat plausible.
Originally posted by Tzeentch._
Because there was a man with a flamethrower and two Super Battle Droids closing in on him from behind?He was supposed to:
Duel Dooku, while dodging Jangos' flamethrower, while deflecting blaster fire from their droid bodyguards?
I meant, perhaps delivering an incapacitating cut to Dooku, on appearance, then going from there to either stab Jango - or, use TK to turn Jango's flames back on himself (Kenobi did a similiar feat during the Clone Wars) and then dispatch the two Battle Droids, which shouldn't be difficult, given that Mace is well-rested and highly skilled and powerful at this point.