DN Luke vs Exar Kun and Ulic Qel Droma

Originally posted by Fox5
Alright then.Looks like a tie to me.Kun will not 'stomp' Luke,but he might defeat him,barely.Kun isn't all powerful,niether is Luke(which I retract my earlier post BTW),I'd still say it's very close tie,both are equally powerful.The only one that would get 'stomped' here is Ulic,who is basically not needed.

Both Kun and Luke are close to all powerful and in the respective era's they are, but judging by the powers they have shown, Luke and Kun are on par with each other, with Luke perhaps slightly better. Ulic might give Kun the edge he needs to beat Luke though.

Originally posted by IKC
Kun can and will stomp DN Luke, by himself.

You're right about the By himself part,IKC.But Kun will DEFINATELY not 'stomp' Luke,at the very least he will barely defeat him,remember,they're both equally powerful in their respectable eras,but Kun has more experience.So he will defeat him,but barely.

Originally posted by IKC
Stop calling them "trained Jedi." It's more accurate to call them NJO Jedi, and I question the pedastal they've been placed on.

Than lets stop calling the dudes with weeks / month / some years of training which are your beloved TOTJ characters "Jedi". I question the pedastal they've been placed on.

Actually, trying to express it in mathematical terms seems to consistently be your only option given you tout the "zomg 375 planets!?!!!!!" figure ad nauseum.

Apparently reading is you friend. Threat it well. Did you see me posting something like "OMG ! He had the power of 375 planet so he must be 375 times as power as Sidious" ? No ? Thx.

His greatest Force power was Force Lightning?

This isn't Star Wars According to Nai. Pre-DE Sidious was able to do plenty of other things besides lightning (like, say, transferring spirits from one body to another).

And this isn't Star Wars According to IKC either. He was able to take over his own clone bodies, yes. Wow. If we hadn't examples of JA Luke, Ragnos, and Obi-Wans force spirit doing basically the same (take over a body) I would be impressed.

Quantify for us exactly how much he improved, then. You have him pre-DE where he's essentially a match for Yoda. Then you have him during DE when two relatively-untrained Force users' and a fetus' combined potential was enough to send his Force storm on him.

Ah...the "untrained DE Luke myth" again. That relative untrained Luke advanced from "dude who could barely lift his lightsaber" into "dude that can escape Darth Vader" (notice how many "trained PT Jedi" didn't manage to do that) in the matter of weeks / months at max. Than he advanced from that to a "Jedi" who was able to tool enemies that Maul descriped as "worthy opponents" (Black Sun members - SotE), wreck dozens of Bountyhunters and put Vader on his ass (something several PT Jedi Masters didn't manage to do) in another 6 months. Then he goes through another 6 years of self-training, training under Obi-Wans, Yodas and Anakins spirits, combat and knowledge search.

In DE he blocks fire from an AT-AT with his force powers (where a normal blaster did hurt him in ROTJ) and destroys said AT-AT with a force push. Sidious himself tells him that he has "grown very strong in the force" since their last meeting. He creates a force image of himself that people can touch and interact with like it's a real person. Than he proceeds with force pushing Sidious into a wall. Not to mention that 200-year-old Nomi-Sunrider-descendant and trained PT Jedi Vima Da Boda calls Luke a "Jedi Master".

Or are we talking about "untrained" Leia who ripped apart some nice metal structure to drop it on Sidious head and cut through various people with a lightsaber ?

Still you act as if they are both still the same we have seen in ROTJ.

Hm. Doesn't seem like that planet was as impressive as you make it out to be if all it took was the combined potential (not ability. It took all of their potential) of 2.5 people to overpower him.

"As Leia continues to unlock unexpected resources in Luke..."
"With the power of luminous beings brother and sister Jedi press the force arround the dark nexus that is Emperor Palpatine..."
"With all his rage funneled into the Death Storm, the malevolent genius is caught off guard...seperating from his power...[he] finds himself unable to control the dark power he has unleashed and the cataclysmic storm turns against his maker."

Comment of Luke directly after that happens: "He's conquered himself."

So they did catch him offguard and then they only seperated him from his force storm which than turned against his creator. They didn't overpower him. And how often do I have to tell you that he didn't use the entire planet ?

No, logic dictates nothing of the sort. If anything, points can be made for Sidious being far more powerful than Raynar given that Raynar was beaten by but one Skywalker, whereas Sidious had to be overpowered by almost three. That and there's the inconvenient fact that Sidious' knowledge of the Dark Side far surpasses Raynar's own.

It's nice how you simply ignore that this is Luke with additional 2 decades of knowledge gaining when we saw his power growing massively in the matter of 6 months (ESB - ROTJ) and even more in the time period between ROTJ and DE.

Oh, and Sidious wasn't trained by a farmboy still learning the techniques himself.

I love how you simply ignore the holocron Leia stole from Sidious ("a record of Jedi history and teachings", "a Jedi teaching device"😉, the things discovered on Ossus, the knowledge learned from the Falannassi, the entire knowledge stored on the Chu'unthor, and the amassed knowledge Yoda, Obi-Wan and Anakin Skywalker passed to Luke - just to be able to keep the idea that Luke was "selftrained" (like Exar ?!) and therefore didn't know anything.

I like how you conveniently ignore the fact that Zonoma Sekot itself was a living planet and thus able to use the Force on it's own. Given that it's so immense, I'm not surprised that its grasp of the Force is so powerful.

Oh. Great. Now force powers are dependant on physical greatness ? Do you want to argue with me about the power difference between "one living planet" and "375 planets covered with nests including trillions of beings" ?

Kun can and will stomp DN Luke, by himself.

Oh selftrained Kun will be able to do that ? *cough* IF he's able to defeat DN Luke he will surely not even come close to "stomp" him.

Good post Borbarad. Although I agree, IF Kun did beat Luke, it wouldn't be easy. I think Luke could win as well. But in terms of answering this thread, there's no way that Luke could take both Kun and Ulic. One at a time, perhaps, but not at the same time, no way.

Agreed, Anomaly.

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
Good post Borbarad. Although I agree, IF Kun did beat Luke, it wouldn't be easy. I think Luke could win as well. But in terms of answering this thread, there's no way that Luke could take both Kun and Ulic. One at a time, perhaps, but not at the same time, no way.

Well I said that he might be able to do that if he can knock off Ulic with a force attack. When Ulic and Kun enter melee combat with him at once he's most likely dead.

I agree with you guys, that if Ulic and Kun have perfect collusion they will most likely take Luke, assuming Luke doesn't destroy Ulic with a force attack. I will emphasize this point again, referring to Kun's amulet blast and Luke's emerald lightning since nobody has been able to give a strong argument for either. Luke hasn't been shown to use his on a force user, while Kun hasn't been shown to use his on a living force user, so the force battle between the two is inconclusive, no matter what the biased opinions are, this is just fact unless anyone can prove me wrong. Then we have saber combat in which it is also inconclusive who is the better fighter between Luke and Kun, since Kun was the greatest of his time and Luke was the greatest of his time.. Either way I'd say Ulic goes down first..

Possibly, but the fact that Kun's saber style was unique and that he was able to destroy the best of his order with relative easy, i would put Kun's saber skill above DN Luke, although just barely

If you put his skills above Luke why would you say just barely? How would you know if they were just barely better? And youre listing feats here, because Luke didn't have an enemy with a saber to contend with, that automatically puts his lightsaber abilities below Kun?

moreso, it puts Kun with more experience against an enemy with a lightsaber, and considering Kun literally curbstomped every single one of Jedi Masters, without any trouble and considering Luke has problems with almost every major enemy i would say Kun's melee skills are superior.

By barely i mean that he isnt much better not like leagues above Luke.

Originally posted by Deception
Possibly, but the fact that Kun's saber style was unique and that he was able to destroy the best of his order with relative easy, i would put Kun's saber skill above DN Luke, although just barely

Despite being stated to be a form V user Luke's style appears to be unique too. At least he has some knowledge of form III and IV (Obi-Wans journal / Yoda) than form V, apparently form II (he used one handed precise movements in DN), Jar'Kai (NJO) and he can switch his weapon hand (DN).

If you go by the Jedi Academy games it's even possible that he generated new styles by blending the old ones "Fast style" (form II / III blend - precise, fast cuts out of a defensive using short and quick blade movements), "Medium Style" (equilibrium between speed and power, possibly similar to Obi-Wan's Sokan - form III / IV blend) and the "Strong style" (as it appears a blend of form IV; V and VII - 100 % agression partitially fueled by rage using powerful swings).

This is of course speculation but I guess by Luke different use of lightsaber he might really use a unique style or he at least can use different forms on a similar skill level.

Possibly, but the fact that Kun's saber style was unique and that he was able to destroy the best of his order with relative easy, i would put Kun's saber skill above DN Luke, although just barely

Can somebody give me the quote from the TOTJ comics that labels Vodo the "best lightsaber fighter" of the TOTJ era Jedi order and show me were to find it- because I can't. The fact that he was something like the grandmaster alone as well that he used a stick more powerful (because he used the force to make it that way) than a lightsaber alone don't qualify him for that title (especially since we have Ulic - trained by another master - stalemating Kun).

moreso, it puts Kun with more experience against an enemy with a lightsaber,

I wonder where Kun gathered all his lightsaber experience. The only people he was fighting with were Sylvar, Crado, Ulic and Vodo. Sylvar scratched his face, Ulic stalemated him and Vodo defeated him first and than lost to him.
Still...Luke had actual fights against Vader (twice), his own clone, Mara Jade, DE Sidious (twice), Gantoris, Kueller, Brakiss, Desann, Welk and Lomi Plo (and slaughtered an army of Yuuzhan Vong in melee combat - including the Supreme Overlord). Not to mention he had nearly 3 decades more time for "training" compared to Exar.

and considering Kun literally curbstomped every single one of Jedi Masters, without any trouble and considering Luke has problems with almost every major enemy i would say Kun's melee skills are superior.

And considering that Kun just fought only one single Jedi Master (Vodo) with a lightsaber you probably did read other comics than I did. And considering what calibres Luke had to deal with (Vader, DE Sidious, Shimra etc.) I doubt that translates into "Oh my god. Luke sucks in lightsaber combat".

I hate to say it since I say it a lot but I agree with NAI.. Vodo might have been the grandmaster but nowhere does it state that he was the greatest saber duelist.