http://www.starwars.com/databank/lo...archives/?id=eu
Originally posted by IKC
Dude. None of them fall under canon. Everything you've named is N-canon.Hell, the star wars databank at starwars.com doesn't, either. Which is good, considering how woefully out of date and often inaccurate it is.
How many quotes do I have to throw at you before you step out of your "world of constant denial" ?
Well, you could start by throwing one from a canon source at me before I stop calling you on making bullshit unsupported assertions.
You simply failed to proof that the PT era was more martial. Don't you get it ? Illustrious words won't save you since he's wrong as well. The "diplomats style" became the most used form during Sidious reign meaning it wasn't before TPM.
See Illustrious' post right above mine.
And the Jedi did were battle armor. Wow. Where's Ulic's battle armor ? Cay's ? Vodo's ? Arca's ? Nomi's ? Is this why one of the guys just wanted to invent Battle Armor during the Great Sith War ?
Qrrrl Toq wanted to invent it, huh? Is that why this:
comes before the Sith War even starts? Oh. Didn't want to inconvenience you with the truth again.
See answer in the other thread and stop playing "SW according to IKC".
This from the king of unsupported assertions? Destroyed in the other thread.
That changes his general personality (hothead) and the fact that he never commanded a battle with the exception of his nice try to take over Coruscant how exactly ? It doesn't ? Oh...great. Isn't it ?
Wow. Your ignorance of the primary source material is staggering.
So, what's that then? Looks like Ulic's got a hand in overseeing a strike force.
What about this, then? Looks like Ulic's conducting one of many shipyard raids.
Huh. Looks like you're dead wrong again. Aren't you tired of being so wrong?
No because Quinlan Vos dictates it.
Right, and Quinlan Vos is omniscient and couldn't have been making a metaphor... oh wait.
Oh no. The "God of Star Wars" has managed to see that Aleema and Satal started the Krath in 3,998 BBY so they had just one / two years of training at max.
Perhaps you should learn a little more about the source material:
Oh yeah. They couldn't have had any training with melee weapons, nevermind that they pride themselves on using them!
Star Wars doesn't hinge on your opinions, Nai. The Tetans (krath) are trained in melee combat. Deal with it.
The ranged weapons were the "bows" I mentioned and the blasters were used by the protocol droids and not by the Krath War Droids who used swords and that nice firing assembly.
http://swcomics.dreamhoster.org/oldrepublic/oldrepublic_38_18.jpg
So is that why they're seen here firing blasters? Looks like you still don't know shit about what you're talking about.
o they still pocess only limited cognitive devices making them target the biggest thread on the battle field first ? Yes ?
So, did you pull this unsupported assertion out of your own ass or someone else's? So because Arca was "targeted for clandestine attack" that means that the war droids are only capable of targeting the most powerful Jedi present? What a crock.
Originally posted by Illustrious
WTF? So everyone that was alive before TPM suddenly unlearned their previous lightsaber forms and all switched to Niman.
No. The style became the "most common" during Palpatine's reign meaning that in that time period most people that became Jedi Knights used that style. Before TPM it wasn't the most common style. Read the article about the seven forms. It labels Ataru the dominating style in the centuries before the PT.
So everyone at the Battle of Geonosis wasn't alive or wasn't trained before TPM?
Apparently all people that survived the fight weren't Niman users and they were in fact all trained before TPM (except Anakin).
So canonically the decline of Makashi wasn't due to the fact that it wasn't as martial nor did it focus on lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat, but because Sidious came along, and decided to change everyone over to Niman. Right? The same Sidious who has to keep his cover and not give away him being a Sith has time to go meddle in the affairs of the Jedi?
What a twisted argument.
a) Sidious reign was just used as a time frame
b) What does "Makashi" have to do with the question if a time was martial or not ? Makashi is lightsaber-vs-lightsaber focused while most people participating in wars were armed with blasters.
c) The time wasn't martial. So where do you think the Jedi got their reputation in combat skills from ? When Mace was facing 14 bandits he said his name and all dropped their weapons. When he arrived on Haruun Kal the two guards that attacked him considered themselves to be lucky to have survived against a naked Mace.
I know that Mace was an exceptional Jedi but you won't be known by every damn idiot in the entire galaxy for your fighting skills if you spent your entire day meditating on Coruscant.
The same Jedi that haven't seen a Sith in a millenia keep up the same forms?
No. They instead instantly ALL switch to ONE other form even if some of them belonged to species with several centuries of natural age and most of them chose to practice the style that was used by their Masters before. The only form that logically would have became less popular than it was before was Makashi because it's designed for lightsaber vs lightsaber combat and unless you want to contradict the inventors of that lightsaber forms Ataru was "the dominant style used in the centuries before the Battle of Naboo" and unless you want to contradict Mace Windu in the ROTS novel, Soresu was the classical form of lightsaber combat. So apparently they didn't all instantly changed to Niman.
We know that most of them in the PT era used Niman, and we know that they were more diplomatic than warlords, considering they were sent on diplomatic missions, they rarely used their lightsabers, they did not recognize a Sith, AND the one form that specializes in lightsaber-to-lightsaber was long IN DECLINE.
Wow. The TOTJ Jedi surely all seem to be "warlords" and "martial". Like Odd Bnar who says to Kun that fighting isn't his speciality, Andur Sunrider who gets his ass handed to a bunch of bandits or Arca Jeth who gets pwned by protocol droids aimed with blasters because he thinks it's more useful to give somebody a lecture during a battle than focusing on said battle. You can't be serious.
But wait, Palpatine comes aboard and suddenly goes "everyone must unlearn their shit and take Niman lessons!" right?
No. They had a 1,000 year period of "relative" peace with the exception of the century before the PT. But that's the case for the TOTJ era people, too. They didn't see a Sith for 1,000 years and the only conflict involving lightsaber combat was the Third Shism (one fight on Coruscant followed by the Rogue Jedi blowing themselves up in the Vultar Cataclysm) - and that was 250 years before TOTJ.
Form VI
In the time of Palpatine's Chancellorship, Form VI is the current standard in Jedi lightsaber training. This Form balances the emphases of other Forms with overall moderation, in keeping with the Jedi quest to achieve true harmony and justice without resorting to the rule of power. It is considered the "diplomat's Form" because it is less intensive in its demands than the other disciplines, allowing Jedi to spend more time developing their skills in perception, political strategy, and negotiation. In practice, Form VI is a combination of Forms I, III, IV, and V. Young Jedi spend their first few years studying Form I and then a year or two with each additional Form before completing their training. By comparison, a Form VI master will spend at least ten years studying only that Form after completing the basic Form I training. Form VI well suits the modern Jedi's role in the galaxy, in which a Knight overly trained in martial combat might be at a loss to resolve a complex political conflict between star systems. However, full masters of other Forms sometimes consider Form VI to be insufficiently demanding.
Source: http://swg.stratics.com/content/gameplay/professions/jedi/lightsaber_combat.php
It says its the standard in Palpatine's time, but it doesn't say that everyone just... switched to it at the last minute. If anything, it seems ridiculous that an entire order of 10,000 or so jedi knights all stopped and learned Niman at the expense of more complete forms just because it's easier and quicker to learn, giving them more time to practice their studies. That would be like experienced Green berets dropping their advanced training to go to boot camp because boot camp is faster and less demanding. Non sequitor.
No. The style became the "most common" during Palpatine's reign meaning that in that time period most people that became Jedi Knights used that style. Before TPM it wasn't the most common style. Read the article about the seven forms. It labels Ataru the dominating style in the centuries before the PT.
Apparently you attribute association with causation. That's a fundamental flaw in logic. Palpatine did NOT tell everyone to simply unlearn all their shit and learn Niman.
The process was already on-going. The PT did NOT happen in a void.
Apparently all people that survived the fight weren't Niman users and they were in fact all trained before TPM (except Anakin).
Which was how much of the population? A few elites does not a population make.
What a twisted argument.
a) Sidious reign was just used as a time frame
Exactly, and it's an instrumental point in the timeframe. Sidious' reign corresponds rather perfectly with the PT.
b) What does "Makashi" have to do with the question if a time was martial or not ? Makashi is lightsaber-vs-lightsaber focused while most people participating in wars were armed with blasters.
So not seeing a Sith in a millennia and not having to fight in lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat means the period is more martial, how?
The decline in Makashi directly correlates with the decline in lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat.
c) The time wasn't martial. So where do you think the Jedi got their reputation in combat skills from ? When Mace was facing 14 bandits he said his name and all dropped their weapons. When he arrived on Haruun Kal the two guards that attacked him considered themselves to be lucky to have survived against a naked Mace.
There are notable figures in every time period. That does not mean that the period was martial. Did anything the PT era do compare to sending ALL the Jedi to some outer Rim moon like Yavin?
Did they wear battle armor and train specifically to be "warriors"?
In fact, in the PT, they were recognized as "peacekeepers" not fighters. How does this translate into a martial era? Because Mace is representative of the whole PT era and beyond?
I know that Mace was an exceptional Jedi but you won't be known by every damn idiot in the entire galaxy for your fighting skills if you spent your entire day meditating on Coruscant.
The events in Shatterpoint were never intended to be the brawl that it was. He did not intend to do more than peacekeeping. The circumstance was never expected to be a battle. Simply because Mace gained notoriety for his exploits does not indicate that the Jedi were used as soldiers and warriors.
No. They instead instantly ALL switch to ONE other form even if some of them belonged to species with several centuries of natural age and most of them chose to practice the style that was used by their Masters before. The only form that logically would have became less popular than it was before was Makashi because it's designed for lightsaber vs lightsaber combat and unless you want to contradict the inventors of that lightsaber forms Ataru was "the dominant style used in the centuries before the Battle of Naboo" and unless you want to contradict Mace Windu in the ROTS novel, Soresu was the classical form of lightsaber combat. So apparently they didn't all instantly changed to Niman.
You said it yourself, they switched to Niman for the PT era. The era prior to the PT was devoid of Sith. Makashi has been in decline for quite some time. Being the classical form of combat does not mean it was the best form of combat. We're trying to establish superiority, not popularity.
Again, unless you want to tell me how "peacekeepers" are more martial than armor-clad "warriors," this point is moot.
Wow. The TOTJ Jedi surely all seem to be "warlords" and "martial". Like Odd Bnar who says to Kun that fighting isn't his speciality, Andur Sunrider who gets his ass handed to a bunch of bandits or Arca Jeth who gets pwned by protocol droids aimed with blasters because he thinks it's more useful to give somebody a lecture during a battle than focusing on said battle. You can't be serious.
"Wow, Mace gets his ass handed because he was too busy breaking the Jedi Code, Plo Koon gets blown out of the sky by a clone trooper, Kit Fisto, Saessee Tiin, and Agen Kolar are taken out in sections, even before they can get a good swing in, Yoda dislikes combat, Coleman Trebor gets blown out of a balcony by a blaster even though he had his lightsaber up and ready, Aayla Secura doesn't even see a bolt coming, Dozens of Jedi get pwned by droids."
Yes, Nai, let's use appeal to ridicule to show our biases. Great idea.
No. They had a 1,000 year period of "relative" peace with the exception of the century before the PT. But that's the case for the TOTJ era people, too. They didn't see a Sith for 1,000 years and the only conflict involving lightsaber combat was the Third Shism (one fight on Coruscant followed by the Rogue Jedi blowing themselves up in the Vultar Cataclysm) - and that was 250 years before TOTJ.
That doesn't mean that they weren't engaging in combat at a more frequent rate AND were better prepared for combat, as shown in TOTJ.
Since when was number of notable skirmishes ever an indication of better military prowess? I bet that our Army Reserves could beat the crap out of the Union and Confederate Armies, but it doesn't mean they fight more battles, just that they are more prepared.
So, besides appeal to ridicule, arguing that association is causation, and gross mathematical oversimplification, what else do you want to pull out?
Originally posted by IKC
Well, you could start by throwing one from a canon source at me before I stop calling you on making bullshit unsupported assertions.
Because you want to label the official website a not usable source I don't have to agree with you.
Qrrrl Toq wanted to invent it, huh? Is that why this comes before the Sith War even starts? Oh. Didn't want to inconvenience you with the truth again.
Is this why he was labelled the "designer" of said armor and we see most people running arround without any armor ? Must be very common in the TOTJ era...indeed. That's why most of the major persons don't wear it, right (if you exclude their shoulder pads) ?
This from the king of unsupported assertions? Destroyed in the other thread.
Uhhh...and how you destroyed it. The direct comment of a Jedi Knight about force powers - especially a force power he has seen in action before doesn't count if IKC sees one of his beloved TOTJ characters in danger.
Wow. Your ignorance of the primary source material is staggering.
So, what's that then? Looks like Ulic's got a hand in overseeing a strike force.
Wow. Your interpretation of the primary sources are mind-blowing. So overseeing a mission = commanding it. And notice how he get's freaks out on the next page because of Aleema's illusions until Nomi recognizes them as what they are.
What about this, then? Looks like Ulic's conducting one of many shipyard raids. Huh. Looks like you're dead wrong again. Aren't you tired of being so wrong?
Wow. Being able to take a shipyard with forces with superior numbers, more skill and illusions covering the approach of said forces is surely a testament for Ulic's tactical genious.
Right, and Quinlan Vos is omniscient and couldn't have been making a metaphor... oh wait.
Yeah. "Master Yoda is using Battle Meditation" is a metaphor for "men that dumb muppet isn't doing anything but standing arround" supported by the 501st Clone Trooper who says that "Master Yoda turned the suicide mission into a victory on his own" later. Man. Yoda must be good if his sheer presence is enough to wtfpwn armies of droids without him even lifting a hand.
Oh yeah. They couldn't have had any training with melee weapons, nevermind that they pride themselves on using them!Star Wars doesn't hinge on your opinions, Nai. The Tetans (krath) are trained in melee combat. Deal with it.
Can you read ? "The Tetan Warriors boast that their blades are a match for every handweapon in the Galaxy". Nice. Again: Can you read ? That says: The Tetan Warriors themselves do think that their blades (and not their combat skills) are a match for every handweapon in the Galaxy. Wow. Hey IKC...I think my Katana can wtfpwn Exar Kun's lightsaber. That's a testament of my skill as Katana fighter now, right ?
And by the way. The page just before that is a nice read:
http://swcomics.dreamhoster.org/oldrepublic/oldrepublic_37_09.jpg
"After centuries of peace..." People who trained with a melee weapon in centuries of peace will slaughter people who used melee weapons for hunting and fighting for their entire lives starting using it in the age of 12 (so possibly using it for more than a century) and have more strength. I totally see the logic behind that. Lmao.
So is that why they're seen here firing blasters? Looks like you still don't know shit about what you're talking about.
Frankly. Do those things look like "bows" ? Man. Must have a nice fire rate if Ulic can give a comment like "Master the droid was behind you. I should have seen it" without the droid aiming right at him firing again. Totally compareable to modern bowcasters. Yup.
So, did you pull this unsupported assertion out of your own ass or someone else's? So because Arca was "targeted for clandestine attack" that means that the war droids are only capable of targeting the most powerful Jedi present? What a crock.
The droids are "programmed to single out the strongest Jedi on the Battlefield" so let's guess who they will focus on. And a single blaster shot > Krath War Droid. So let's guess again who will survive if the Wookies shoot at the Krath (melee weapons only) and their war droids (low fire rate, can be destroyed by a single blaster hit) from a temple when said forces are trying to cross an open era. Or let that battle happen in the jungle...really...
Because you want to label the official website a not usable source I don't have to agree with you.
Because that "official website" doesn't fall under the canon policy under which we operate when debating the material.
Is this why he was labelled the "designer" of said armor and we see most people running arround without any armor ? Must be very common in the TOTJ era...indeed. That's why most of the major persons don't wear it, right (if you exclude their shoulder pads) ?
The designer? Better read the quote again, Nai. It doesn't use the definite article. It only means that he's a designer.
There's also the inconvenient fact that Vodo appears to be wearing shoulder armor (which we have no reason to exclude), Ulic has a cool piece to circle his neck (among other pieces), Kun has armor of his own, etc etc. Toq himself wears a full chest-piece. You want to argue that they're not wearing it, now?
Uhhh...and how you destroyed it. The direct comment of a Jedi Knight about force powers - especially a force power he has seen in action before doesn't count if IKC sees one of his beloved TOTJ characters in danger.
Except his "direct comment" was a questionable metaphor and there's no other evidence of Yoda's use of the power? Good one.
Wow. Your interpretation of the primary sources are mind-blowing. So overseeing a mission = commanding it. And notice how he get's freaks out on the next page because of Aleema's illusions until Nomi recognizes them as what they are.
And you're bringing up his reaction to Aleema's illusions (which happened to be enormous, ship-eating creatures thought to be extinct) as if it's relevant...?
Oh, wait. It's not. That's our Nai, the master of irrelevant misdirections (logical fallacies).
Wow. Being able to take a shipyard with forces with superior numbers, more skill and illusions covering the approach of said forces is surely a testament for Ulic's tactical genious.
He had been doing so for some time, without ever being caught by the Republic. He'd done so without Mandalore, as well. I'd say he's got a good amount of experience under his belt, as proved out by his near-capture of Coruscant.
Yeah. "Master Yoda is using Battle Meditation" is a metaphor for "men that dumb muppet isn't doing anything but standing arround" supported by the 501st Clone Trooper who says that "Master Yoda turned the suicide mission into a victory on his own" later. Man. Yoda must be good if his sheer presence is enough to wtfpwn armies of droids without him even lifting a hand.
It was "Master Yoda went into a battle meditation and we were his lightsabers."
The metaphor calls into question the entire statement, especially when taken into context with the fact that there was no other mention of said meditation, nor any mention of its effects.
I like how you bring up the "suicide mission" as if it's relevant. By that logic, Luke Skywalker must be a force god because of the successful "suicide mission" he undertook at the end of ANH.
Can you read ? "The Tetan Warriors boast that their blades are a match for every handweapon in the Galaxy". Nice. Again: Can you read ? That says: The Tetan Warriors themselves do think that their blades (and not their combat skills) are a match for every handweapon in the Galaxy. Wow. Hey IKC...I think my Katana can wtfpwn Exar Kun's lightsaber. That's a testament of my skill as Katana fighter now, right ?
Can you make logical deductions? One cannot have such an army if they don't train in combat, or else they'd have never won a battle against non-Tetans. As we saw in the shipyard raids and on Coruscant, that wasn't the case.
After centuries of peace..." People who trained with a melee weapon in centuries of peace will slaughter people who used melee weapons for hunting and fighting for their entire lives starting using it in the age of 12 (so possibly using it for more than a century) and have more strength. I totally see the logic behind that. Lmao.
And then you read the box directly below that:
"And the proud and fierce warrior classes of the seven worlds have continued to train with the weapons of a glorious earlier day."
Oh yeah. Those Tetans sure are incompetant.
By that logic, Kun should never have beaten Vodo because Kun has less real world lightsaber combat experience. We saw that wasn't the case.
By that logic, Sidious should have gotten totally pwned by Yoda since he had almost no real world combat experience. Oh, but he didn't.
Sorry, didn't mean to point out your ridiculous fallacies.
Frankly. Do those things look like "bows" ? Man. Must have a nice fire rate if Ulic can give a comment like "Master the droid was behind you. I should have seen it" without the droid aiming right at him firing again. Totally compareable to modern bowcasters. Yup.
Oh yeah, because bows fire visible beams of energy all the time. I tell you what, I can't get mine to stop doing that.
So what's with the irrelevant misdirection about the droid that assassinated Arca? Did you conveniently forget that "A Jedi blaster quickly dispatches the assassin?"
The droids are "programmed to single out the strongest Jedi on the Battlefield" so let's guess who they will focus on.
...Yeah, in the strike on Deneba. I hate to break it to you, but it's a serious unsupported assumption to just believe that said droids only have one function.
And a single blaster shot > Krath War Droid.
Or modified protocol droid.
Single blaster shots take down Wookies, as well, so your point is completely moot.
So let's guess again who will survive if the Wookies shoot at the Krath (melee weapons only)
Is this why we see a giant tank bristling with blasters in the very link you provided? Oh, sorry. Didn't mean to incovenience you with the truth again.
And I don't mean to inconvenience you with this showing of an armored, blaster-wielding Tetan soldier:
Looks like the wookies are ****ed.
and their war droids (low fire rate, can be destroyed by a single blaster hit)
"Low fire rate" is a grossly unsupported assumption.
Wookies can be killed with single blaster hits as well.
from a temple when said forces are trying to cross an open era
Right. Because the jungle has lots of open areas.
The wookies are screwed, really. I almost forgot about the armored Tetan soldiers.
Originally posted by Illustrious
Apparently you attribute association with causation. That's a fundamental flaw in logic. Palpatine did NOT tell everyone to simply unlearn all their shit and learn Niman.The process was already on-going. The PT did NOT happen in a void.
The process was on-going. Still the form became standart during the PT which means it wasn't the standart before - which means that they had another standart before which wasn't Niman.
Which was how much of the population? A few elites does not a population make.
Minimum 24 out of 212 (Battle on Geonosis) so roughly 12 % which would be 1200 Knights in the entire order. You can still see that those people who were trained before the PT are not focusing on Niman and this contains most people in the Order as it is in the PT - so that isn't very accurate.
Exactly, and it's an instrumental point in the timeframe. Sidious' reign corresponds rather perfectly with the PT.
You still don't get the point. If Niman became the standart during Sidious reign it wasn't the standart before (meaning right before TPM).
So not seeing a Sith in a millennia and not having to fight in lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat means the period is more martial, how?
LOL. Again: The TOTJ era people also didn't see a Sith for a millenia and the last lightsaber-to-lightsaber confrontation happened 250 years in the past.
The decline in Makashi directly correlates with the decline in lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat.
What does that again have to do with making a time more or less martial ? That's like saying the first crusade was more martial than the second world war because they used melee weapons during the crusade. Does that make sense ?
There are notable figures in every time period. That does not mean that the period was martial. Did anything the PT era do compare to sending ALL the Jedi to some outer Rim moon like Yavin?
Did they need to send all the Jedi somewhere when a handful was enough to turn the tide of an entire battle ?
Did they wear battle armor and train specifically to be "warriors"?
As nearly nobody in the TOTJ time did ?
In fact, in the PT, they were recognized as "peacekeepers" not fighters. How does this translate into a martial era? Because Mace is representative of the whole PT era and beyond?
In fact the TOTJ Jedi were recognized as "peacekeepers" not fighters too. So how does that translate into a martial era ? Because some of them were good combatants (Ulic, Nomi, Vodo) or because they had a 6 months war and 2 battles before (Nadd uprising) happening ?
The events in Shatterpoint were never intended to be the brawl that it was. He did not intend to do more than peacekeeping. The circumstance was never expected to be a battle. Simply because Mace gained notoriety for his exploits does not indicate that the Jedi were used as soldiers and warriors.
Ulic started a battle on Onderon and Arca went in and declared that mission a failure. So what was Arca's intention. A battle ? I don't think so. And Mace did gain notoriety for his fighting skills because usually people don't fear you can meditate them to death while the outnumber you 14 to 1. And that does count for all PT Jedi even Padawans (see the scene when Obi-Wan moves into that "bar" in Shadowhunter or Darsha confronting the bandits on Coruscant in the same book).
You said it yourself, they switched to Niman for the PT era. The era prior to the PT was devoid of Sith. Makashi has been in decline for quite some time. Being the classical form of combat does not mean it was the best form of combat. We're trying to establish superiority, not popularity.
How many people in the TOTJ era were using Makashi ? Beeeeeep.
Superiority ? Try to kill a Soresu Master in lightsaber combat.
Again, unless you want to tell me how "peacekeepers" are more martial than armor-clad "warriors," this point is moot.
Show me the armor-clad warriors. Todd, Nomi and Sylvar are wearing basically normal clothes. The masters wear robes while Ulic and Cay have some shoulder pats. You call that armor-clad warriors ?
Is Odd "Fighting isn't my discipline" Bnar a "warrior" ?
"Wow, Mace gets his ass handed because he was too busy breaking the Jedi Code, Plo Koon gets blown out of the sky by a clone trooper, Kit Fisto, Saessee Tiin, and Agen Kolar are taken out in sections, even before they can get a good swing in, Yoda dislikes combat, Coleman Trebor gets blown out of a balcony by a blaster even though he had his lightsaber up and ready, Aayla Secura doesn't even see a bolt coming, Dozens of Jedi get pwned by droids."Yes, Nai, let's use appeal to ridicule to show our biases. Great idea.
You keep on comparing rather regular Jedi to the top products of an era. They all die in rather stupid ways so were is the superiority of the TOTJ era people ? You see TOTJ-Jedi getting pwned by droids on Deneba...you see PT-Jedi getting pwned by droids on Geonosis.
Where is the difference ?
That doesn't mean that they weren't engaging in combat at a more frequent rate AND were better prepared for combat, as shown in TOTJ.
Were did they engage in combat at a more frequent rate ? I still don't get it. You have two battles in the 1000 years before the TOTJ era, one happening 250 years before TOTJ and one war against droids. In TOTJ times you have (involving Jedi):
- two battles on Onderon
- three battles on Korus Major
- two battles on Coruscant
- one battle on Deneba
- one battle on Kemplex IX / Ossus
- one battle on Yavin 4
Compare that to the Stark Hyperspace War (5 battles), the Ynchorri Uprising (3 Battles), the Mandalorian Civil War, several civil wars + fighting against smugglers / the Black Sun and more than 100 different battles happening during the clone wars. But the TOTJ Jedi did combat at a more frequent rate ?
Since when was number of notable skirmishes ever an indication of better military prowess? I bet that our Army Reserves could beat the crap out of the Union and Confederate Armies, but it doesn't mean they fight more battles, just that they are more prepared.
No. It means that they have the better technology. Take two armies, same equipment with one army having fought more battles - which army wins ?
So, besides appeal to ridicule, arguing that association is causation, and gross mathematical oversimplification, what else do you want to pull out?
The fact that there is nothing to suggest that the TOTJ people were better prepared for war, had more battle experience or are better lightsaber combatants or force users maybe since they lived and were trained under nearly equal circumstances - with the little exception that they weren't trained from childhood on ?
Originally posted by IKC
Because that "official website" doesn't fall under the canon policy under which we operate when debating the material.
No ? The website is run by Lucasfilm the company that has the very last words in terms of canon. There you go.
There's also the inconvenient fact that Vodo appears to be wearing shoulder armor (which we have no reason to exclude), Ulic has a cool piece to circle his neck (among other pieces), Kun has armor of his own, etc etc. Toq himself wears a full chest-piece. You want to argue that they're not wearing it, now?
You are rating "shoulder pads" as armor. Still the majority of the Jedi displayed doesn't wear armor. So why you come back with "omg they did have armor" over and over again. It doesn't protect them from getting killed by a blaster or have them cut down by a lightsaber.
Except his "direct comment" was a questionable metaphor and there's no other evidence of Yoda's use of the power? Good one.
Again. What does the "metaphor" stating that Master Yoda wents into battle meditation stand for. You know what a metaphor is ? So what does that part of the sentence stand for. I'm waiting...
And you're bringing up his reaction to Aleema's illusions (which happened to be enormous, ship-eating creatures thought to be extinct) as if it's relevant...?Oh, wait. It's not. That's our Nai, the master of irrelevant misdirections (logical fallacies).
He freaks out. He just has that things popping out of nowhere and immediatly goes "OMG. THey will destroy the entire fleet" when my 5 year old cousin knows that giant creatures don't appear out-of-nowhere.
He had been doing so for some time, without ever being caught by the Republic. He'd done so without Mandalore, as well. I'd say he's got a good amount of experience under his belt, as proved out by his near-capture of Coruscant.
He took down targets with superior forces on his side and the advantage of illusions. That's compareable to turning a "suicide mission" into a victory like Yoda did on Kashyyk how ?
It was "Master Yoda went into a battle meditation and we were his lightsabers."The metaphor calls into question the entire statement, especially when taken into context with the fact that there was no other mention of said meditation, nor any mention of its effects.
Man. This is getting boring. You want that to get used against you ? Kun has amassed more knowledge than he can ever use (told by the narrator), right ? Then he gets pwned by Odd Bnar who uses "power that Kun can't even imagine". Apparently Kun can't do nothing against this so there he could have used something he didn't know which calls the statement of the narrator (and everything narrator said so far) into question. Now give me something to proof Kun's power without using a single line from the narrator.
There was no mention of the effects ? That's why it just turned a "suicide mission" into a victory ? Or to be precise: "Even so, it was still a suicide mission... at least, until Master Yoda arrived. Then it became a battle. A winnable battle." And they won.
Can you make logical deductions? One cannot have such an army if they don't train in combat, or else they'd have never won a battle against non-Tetans. As we saw in the shipyard raids and on Coruscant, that wasn't the case.
During the shipyard raid you have even mentioned that this was over so fast because of the Mandalorian fighters, not because of the Tetans.
"And the proud and fierce warrior classes of the seven worlds have continued to train with the weapons of a glorious earlier day."Oh yeah. Those Tetans sure are incompetant.
Still not as competent as people who have superior training and strength.
By that logic, Kun should never have beaten Vodo because Kun has less real world lightsaber combat experience. We saw that wasn't the case.
He was using a weapon Vodo never encountered and he overpowered him force wise. This is not compareable to melee combat only.
By that logic, Sidious should have gotten totally pwned by Yoda since he had almost no real world combat experience. Oh, but he didn't.
Let's see. Yoda tossed him through the room, disarmed him and he just won because of taking the higher ground. Nice way to "battle".
Sorry, didn't mean to point out your ridiculous fallacies.
Sorry, didn't mean to point out your ridiculous comparisons.
Oh yeah, because bows fire visible beams of energy all the time. I tell you what, I can't get mine to stop doing that.So what's with the irrelevant misdirection about the droid that assassinated Arca? Did you conveniently forget that "A Jedi blaster quickly dispatches the assassin?"
Did you miss the picture when Ulic gives that comment and the droid is standing there aiming at Ulic before he get's hit by said blaster shot ?
Single blaster shots take down Wookies, as well, so your point is completely moot.
a) Covered position + battle meditation VS people on open area. Who wins ?
b) Advanced technology, higher firing rate, more accuracy. Who wins ?
Is this why we see a giant tank bristling with blasters in the very link you provided? Oh, sorry. Didn't mean to incovenience you with the truth again.And I don't mean to inconvenience you with this showing of an armored, blaster-wielding Tetan soldier
Even I can see that this is a flame thrower. Would be only logical since they "have felt no need to adopt to modern weapons". How much precission would somebody who isn't trained to use a blaster have to offer with a blaster. Hmm...
"Low fire rate" is a grossly unsupported assumption.
Say something like "Master that battle droid was behind you. I should have seen it." Look how much time it takes (the same time a Krath Droid apparently needs to use his weapon again) and then tell me it's an unsupported assumption.
Right. Because the jungle has lots of open areas.
Right. Because the temples are standing on open areas surrounded by jungle. Apparently enough open area to have transports landing on them.
The process was on-going. Still the form became standart during the PT which means it wasn't the standart before - which means that they had another standart before which wasn't Niman.
You're just repeating what the hell you already said now. Broken record that simply won't stop even when it's playing a crappy song.
Tell me in an actual source where they ever referenced a particular style as "the official standard." Please.
Then tell me how you expect to believe that EVERYONE switched over to Niman at one particular instance in time? The PT trend represents a far larger philosophical shift that's evidenced in everything.
Minimum 24 out of 212 (Battle on Geonosis) so roughly 12 % which would be 1200 Knights in the entire order. You can still see that those people who were trained before the PT are not focusing on Niman and this contains most people in the Order as it is in the PT - so that isn't very accurate.
I seem to recall 12 survivors in the circle, dude.
Which ones trained before the PT are not focusing on Niman? You can not take a ridiculously small sample (e.g. Council Jedi or Jedi depicted on screen) and apply it to the WHOLE POPULATION with any amount of accuracy. Did you ever learn statistics? Because what you're doing is breaking the laws of statistics and subsequently logic. Even still, the majority of the users there used Niman, and they all died.
You still don't get the point. If Niman became the standart during Sidious reign it wasn't the standart before (meaning right before TPM).
And you're simply repeating yourself AGAIN. It's hard to hold a debate when you're simply being a broken record.
For the last time, unless you can establish that the PT happened IN A VOID, you have no point here. The fact that Niman was standard during the PT indicates the philosophy was to be diplomats, not warriors.
And again, I ask you to point out where (in the actual source) was it ever referenced that there was such a thing as the official standard form of Jedi in the Order.
LOL. Again: The TOTJ era people also didn't see a Sith for a millenia and the last lightsaber-to-lightsaber confrontation happened 250 years in the past.
And yet they referenced each other as warriors, they routinely used sabers and forms that were NOT Diplomatic, they had readily accessible battle-armor, and they lived in an expanding Republic that saw a far share of violence. No association there whatsoever.
What does that again have to do with making a time more or less martial ? That's like saying the first crusade was more martial than the second world war because they used melee weapons during the crusade. Does that make sense ?
It makes perfect sense when we are talking about fighting with melee weapons. Tell me, are Ulic and Yoda more likely to fight it out with sabers or with blasters?
Did they need to send all the Jedi somewhere when a handful was enough to turn the tide of an entire battle ?
When was it stated that a "handful" was enough to turn the tide of battle?
And again, it's irrelevant, the mere fact that they sent the entire Jedi as an army establishes that the Jedi were more martial than compared to their PT counterparts.
As nearly nobody in the TOTJ time did ?
Really? You took off all their robes and checked? You saw every Jedi in the damn story? Or are you applying population-wide conclusions based on tiny samples again?
Tell me, does someone like Ood need armor? Would Odan be a likely candidate for armor? No. But some random Jedi that was a part of the attack on Yavin very probably would.
In fact the TOTJ Jedi were recognized as "peacekeepers" not fighters too. So how does that translate into a martial era ? Because some of them were good combatants (Ulic, Nomi, Vodo) or because they had a 6 months war and 2 battles before (Nadd uprising) happening ?
Is that why they referenced the other as "warrior"? Is that why there is no evidence of them using the "diplomat's form"?
Honestly, let's use absence of proof as the basis of our argument here.
Ulic started a battle on Onderon and Arca went in and declared that mission a failure. So what was Arca's intention. A battle ? I don't think so. And Mace did gain notoriety for his fighting skills because usually people don't fear you can meditate them to death while the outnumber you 14 to 1. And that does count for all PT Jedi even Padawans (see the scene when Obi-Wan moves into that "bar" in Shadowhunter or Darsha confronting the bandits on Coruscant in the same book).
You're missing the point. Gaining notoriety does not equate to gaining in skill. Mace was an exceptional Jedi of his era, does that mean that necessarily every individual of his era would be up there in skill?
Were those people who outnumbered Mace 14 to 1 competent lightsaber-wielding force-users? Was the mission to capture Ulic supposed to be diplomacy?
How many people in the TOTJ era were using Makashi ? Beeeeeep.
Superiority ? Try to kill a Soresu Master in lightsaber combat.
How many people in the PT era were using Soresu? Well... if I were using Nai logic... Obi-Wan... Unduli... errr... errr...
I'd bet you Dooku could take out both Obi-Wan and Luminara at once, how's that for superiority?
Show me the armor-clad warriors. Todd, Nomi and Sylvar are wearing basically normal clothes. The masters wear robes while Ulic and Cay have some shoulder pats. You call that armor-clad warriors ?
Is Odd "Fighting isn't my discipline" Bnar a "warrior" ?
IKC already produced a scan of a speaking of a Jedi as a warrior and referencing armor. So wait, he's just bullshitting now? So i can say that Vos is bullshitting about Yoda because we don't see his battle-meditated troops suddenly kicking 10 times more ass? Please Nai, one-sided logic sucks.
You keep on comparing rather regular Jedi to the top products of an era. They all die in rather stupid ways so were is the superiority of the TOTJ era people ? You see TOTJ-Jedi getting pwned by droids on Deneba...you see PT-Jedi getting pwned by droids on Geonosis.
Where is the difference ?
Yup, amazing Nai. By this singular example, you've established that there was NO DIFFERENCE between the eras. 4000 years passed and not a thing was changed.
I've already established that there were fundamental ideological differences between the two eras. You would not see the entire PT Jedi Order mobilize and attack a single target, they barely sent 4 guys to take out Sidious. You would not see the PT Jedi Order make as offensive a move as STRIPPING someone of the force; the most offensive force power demonstrated by a Jedi in the PT is a... force push? You do NOT see anyone of the TOTJ era being even described as a Niman user.
But wait, there's no difference, because there were peeps from both era that died from droids.
Is this the same logic as saying that everything that looks alike and has similar results is the exact same (from an ATAT blast, to Kun's amulet, to Ragnos' scepter)?
Were did they engage in combat at a more frequent rate ? I still don't get it. You have two battles in the 1000 years before the TOTJ era, one happening 250 years before TOTJ and one war against droids. In TOTJ times you have (involving Jedi):
- two battles on Onderon
- three battles on Korus Major
- two battles on Coruscant
- one battle on Deneba
- one battle on Kemplex IX / Ossus
- one battle on Yavin 4Compare that to the Stark Hyperspace War (5 battles), the Ynchorri Uprising (3 Battles), the Mandalorian Civil War, several civil wars + fighting against smugglers / the Black Sun and more than 100 different battles happening during the clone wars. But the TOTJ Jedi did combat at a more frequent rate ?
And how many independent missions? And how many rigorous instances where the Jedi used their sabers? And how many training sessions with live sabers and real threat for harm? And how many individual "blue milk runs" that resulted in use of "aggressive negotiation"?
The fact of the matter is that the two eras were different enough to produce two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT IDEOLOGIES.
The PT being recognized as an era of peace doesn't mean anything, because according to Nai, he can count more skirmishes for the PT than TOTJ.
No. It means that they have the better technology. Take two armies, same equipment with one army having fought more battles - which army wins ?
You don't seem to understand analogies do you? The TOTJ Jedi are more equipped. I didn't say they necessarily had better technology, but they had a more militant ideology and were trained and willing "warriors."
The fact that there is nothing to suggest that the TOTJ people were better prepared for war, had more battle experience or are better lightsaber combatants or force users maybe since they lived and were trained under nearly equal circumstances - with the little exception that they weren't trained from childhood on ?
Nothing except that they didn't even think alike, nor did they reference themselves in similar manners.
Vodo even says in Dark Lords of the Sith that "A Jedi's training never ends... perhaps you can study the things of the Dark Side." How many PT era Jedi studied the Dark Side?
Dace Diath wore shoulderpads and what looks to be a chestplate. Oss Willum wore shoulderpads and an arm guard, similar to Roman Gladiators. When Exar Kun, Sylvar, and Crado sparred, they wore armor and helmets. When did the PT Jedi do that?
cont...
The Narrator says Qrrrl Toq was a "builder and designer of Jedi Armor" and was a "fearsome warrior." Vodo even asks Exar Kun "do you think anger will make you a great warrior?" So wait, Jedi didn't wear armor now?
Exar Kun wears shoulderpads, something suspiciously like arm protectors, and leg protectors, and could conceivably have armor underneath his tunic.
But wait, the Jedi didn't wear armor in TOTJ because due to Nai's infallible observation, there weren't that many armored Jedi!
Personally, I find the fact that the Jedi in TOTJ wore battlearmor even in "times of peace" to be far more telling than your broken record points, sorry.
Originally posted by Illustrious
Tell me in an actual source where they ever referenced a particular style as "the official standard." Please.
http://swg.stratics.com/content/gameplay/professions/jedi/lightsaber_combat.php
On Niman: In the time of Palpatine's Chancellorship, Form VI is the current standard in Jedi lightsaber training.
Then tell me how you expect to believe that EVERYONE switched over to Niman at one particular instance in time? The PT trend represents a far larger philosophical shift that's evidenced in everything.
Man. I wasn't beliving that they switched form just beyond TPM. It can't be that hard to understand. Jedi are trained for about 25 years (usually) before the archive Knight status. Correct ? Now if Niman was the Standard form used past TPM that means that they started to train the majority of Jedi in Niman in the century before TPM with the result that most Jedi past TPM were Niman users. Also correct ? However...we apparently see quite many people not practicing Niman.
I seem to recall 12 survivors in the circle, dude.Which ones trained before the PT are not focusing on Niman? You can not take a ridiculously small sample (e.g. Council Jedi or Jedi depicted on screen) and apply it to the WHOLE POPULATION with any amount of accuracy. Did you ever learn statistics? Because what you're doing is breaking the laws of statistics and subsequently logic. Even still, the majority of the users there used Niman, and they all died.
http://blogs.starwars.com/holocron/10
Here. This is coming from the guy who's responsible for keeping the timelines straight for Lucasfilm so you probably won't get a better overview. So you have 100 Jedi participating in the arena fight.
17 survived in the arena directly
6 survived in other parts of the arena
2 presumed death but seen alive later (Saesee, Sora)
That does equal a survival quote of 25 % being outnumbered more than 10 to 1 (100 Jedi and at least 1000 droids of different types + the Geonosians). And did you learn statistics ? I even said that this number isn't accurate but notice that "majority" of 10,000 people (strength of the PT era Jedi Order according to Shadowhunter) can be anything between 5,001 and 9,999. So I have something to suggest that roughly 25 % of the PT era Jedi didn't use Niman when you have nothing to suggest that more than 5,001 do so ?
For the last time, unless you can establish that the PT happened IN A VOID, you have no point here. The fact that Niman was standard during the PT indicates the philosophy was to be diplomats, not warriors.And again, I ask you to point out where (in the actual source) was it ever referenced that there was such a thing as the official standard form of Jedi in the Order.
There isn't any change in philosophy that you want to postulate, dude. The Jedi Code remained unchanged from pre-TotJ times to the PT. In the introduction text for "Knights of the old Republic" it says that the Jedi's task was the "preservation of harmony and justice". Is this why Arca Jeth is giving Ulic a nice lecture before sending him to Onderon: "They will want you to fight...but remember,Ulic, the Jedi bring peace...use your weapons as a last resort". Difference compared to the PT era is to be found were exactly ?
And yet they referenced each other as warriors, they routinely used sabers and forms that were NOT Diplomatic, they had readily accessible battle-armor, and they lived in an expanding Republic that saw a far share of violence. No association there whatsoever.
How do you know that their forms were less diplomatic ? How often do I have to tell you the same thing: The PT era people had more wars going on just before the PT than the TOTJ era people had before the events descriped on KotoR. It's as simple as that. And they lived in an expanding Republic ? Maybe you shouldn't argue SW history with me because you have this nice 100 year period called "Republics Dark Ages" just before the battle of Ruusan. The Republic basically ceased to exist, all communication outside the core worlds collapsed and a great part of the Republic worlds were conquered or just joined the New Sith Empire. What do you think how the Republic took back the other worlds again to the point having more than a million member systems in TPM ? Do you think this just happened through diplomacy ?
And where do you know from what fighting styles they did use ? I can tell you that most people weren't using Makashi at least - since they are mostly handling their weapons with both hands (see the fight Ulic vs Cay).
It makes perfect sense when we are talking about fighting with melee weapons. Tell me, are Ulic and Yoda more likely to fight it out with sabers or with blasters?
And again you ignore the inconvenient fact that melee weapons were already out-of-date in the TOTJ era as stated when the Tetan's are descriped. They "didn't adopt to modern weapons" but instead prefered their blades while we see virtually everybody else (Mandalorians, Bandits, Beast Riders, People of Iziz) using ranged weapons. So can you please tell me why most or even a considerable amount of Jedi should prefer a form designed for lightsaber-vs-lightsaber combat when the last fight of this sort happened 250 years in the past and virtually every possible opponent is using blasters ? This is simply illogical and apparently contradicted by what we see in the source material.
And again, it's irrelevant, the mere fact that they sent the entire Jedi as an army establishes that the Jedi were more martial than compared to their PT counterparts.
There was no need for the PT Jedi to sent everybody to a single location. So what does that proof ? You have one event when all of the Jedi gathered on Yavin 4 compared to multiple events when you have just small forces of Jedi dispatched to a single location. So what is the more common method of getting involved in conflicts, hm ?
Really? You took off all their robes and checked? You saw every Jedi in the damn story? Or are you applying population-wide conclusions based on tiny samples again?
Yes. Since I read the comics I saw every Jedi appearing in the story. What do you want to tell me now ? That Nomi is hiding a full set of armor under he cloths ? Same with Tott Doneeta ? Same with Ulic and Cay ? Same with the Jedi on Ossus, same with virtually every master appearing in the comics. If something is "commonly" used I'd like to have more than three people appearing to use it. It's like saying the a electrum lightsaber is a commonly used weapon during the PT era.
Tell me, does someone like Ood need armor? Would Odan be a likely candidate for armor? No. But some random Jedi that was a part of the attack on Yavin very probably would.
So now the incompetent people are the ones that need armor. I guess you can draw your own conclusion for the PT time out of that statement than. And since when does that "armor" protect the Jedi against anybody. Didn't protect them from getting cut into pieces (or are they all using cortosis now ?) or getting shot by a blaster as it seems. So they were more martial because they did look more martial wearing virtually useless armor ?
Is that why they referenced the other as "warrior"? Is that why there is no evidence of them using the "diplomat's form"?
Is that why Lucas himself calls the PT Jedi "invincible" (TPM commentary) ? Is this why the Battle of Geonosis was designed to show how much combat skill they actually have (AotC commentary). Is this why you can't simply go and ignore facts (like how many battles we have in each era) and author's intention while analyzing the sources ?
And because they are all warriors trained for fighting:
Is this why we have this lecture given by Arca (see above)?
Is this why we have Odd "Combat is not my skill" Bnar ?
By the way: What is more useful on a battle field - a set of armor pieces that apparently doesn't protect you against anything or two decades of additional training in force use and lightsaber combat ?
You're missing the point. Gaining notoriety does not equate to gaining in skill. Mace was an exceptional Jedi of his era, does that mean that necessarily every individual of his era would be up there in skill?
They basically threatened every single dude that carried a lightsaber like an invincible being. Have a look at "Shadow Hunter". Mawhi Lhinn (when seeing a durasteel plate cut by a lightsaber) just thinks that you shouldn't tangle with a Jedi since a attentive Jedi will just leave you one single opportunity for a shot and then cut you into pieces real quickly. You have an entire gang of bandits running away from Darsha (still a padawan) and Obi-Wan (another Padawan) getting attacked by 3 people with blasters just because entering a bar having a lightsaber with him.
And even on an ass backward planet like Tantooine which doesn't even belong to the Republic people only seem to recognize Jedi as virtually invincible in combat (otherwise I don't have an explanation for Anakin suggesting this). Not even talking about the Neimodians who shit their pants because having two Jedi on board of their ship (and an entire army of droids to fight them).
And I don't think an organisation can receive a reputation like that by just having people sit in the temple meditating for the greater parts of their lifes.
Were those people who outnumbered Mace 14 to 1 competent lightsaber-wielding force-users? Was the mission to capture Ulic supposed to be diplomacy?
They were people armed with blasters. Give me one single Jedi of any time period able to deflect blaster shots from 14 different persons at once.I've seen Soresu masters getting gunned down by 4 clone troopers.
And they want to capture Ulic instead of simply killing him ? Was that more or less martial than "destroy the Sith we must" (Yoda in ROTS) ?
How many people in the PT era were using Soresu? Well... if I were using Nai logic... Obi-Wan... Unduli... errr... errr...I'd bet you Dooku could take out both Obi-Wan and Luminara at once, how's that for superiority?
You forgot Bariss Offee there. And I'd like to see Dooku taking down Obi-Wan and Luminara without using the force since you wanted to proof style-uberness, right ? Is that why they did sent a Soresu Master to fight Grievous (with four lightsabers) ?
IKC already produced a scan of a speaking of a Jedi as a warrior and referencing armor. So wait, he's just bullshitting now? So i can say that Vos is bullshitting about Yoda because we don't see his battle-meditated troops suddenly kicking 10 times more ass? Please Nai, one-sided logic sucks.
I love how one sided logic and constant ignorance is „great debating“ when used against the PT or the post-ROTJ era when doing the same thing "sucks" when put against TOTJ sources.
Yup, amazing Nai. By this singular example, you've established that there was NO DIFFERENCE between the eras. 4000 years passed and not a thing was changed.
code (established by Odan-Urr): Didn't change.
Lightsaber styles: Didn't change.
Most enemies using blasters: Didn't change.
Main task to keep peace / harmony: Didn't change.
I've already established that there were fundamental ideological differences between the two eras. You would not see the entire PT Jedi Order mobilize and attack a single target, they barely sent 4 guys to take out Sidious. You would not see the PT Jedi Order make as offensive a move as STRIPPING someone of the force; the most offensive force power demonstrated by a Jedi in the PT is a... force push? You do NOT see anyone of the TOTJ era being even described as a Niman user.
You have established nothing with the exception for „PT Jedi don't use armor“.
You won't see PT Jedi stripping someone from the force ? Is this why Vergere (a PT Jedi) used that technique against Jacen Solo in the NJO series ? So apparently that was taught in the PT era. Sorry.
Is this „less martial“ time explaining why you and equal amount of people using Battle Meditation in the PT era compared to the TOTJ era (Nomi, Thon, Arca, Ood, Odan VS Yoda, Yarael Poof, Oppo Rancicis, Jorus, Vima-Da-Boda) – a force technique that only helps you in...battles...?
Is this why every damn PT Jedi knows how to short-circuit droids (TPM VD suggest that this is how they disable battle droids – that isn't a force push) a technique that was known to only one being (Arca) in the TOTJ era (while his apprentices „are still no versed in the subtle uses of the force“) ?
Is this why you have PT era Jedi knowing things like Morichro and Tràkata which seem to be quite agressive ? Is this why Yoda uses lightsaber throws and slams opponents into walls using force push ? Is this why they immediatly used the Clone Army when it got in their hands instead of supporting the attempt to find a diplomatic solution for the CIS crisis ?
And how many independent missions? And how many rigorous instances where the Jedi used their sabers? And how many training sessions with live sabers and real threat for harm? And how many individual "blue milk runs" that resulted in use of "aggressive negotiation"?
How would it be to just stop arguing possibilities but instead substanciate ? Have a look at this and this is not even containing some of the events mentioned (like the missions of Mace and Depa or Even Piells fight against the Black Sun):
http://intern.darklegion.de/eddie/Battles.pdf
Just what I could find on the internet. You should be able to click on a link to reach wikipedia with some fast description / sources where to find the battles - didn't want to quote the entirety from the originals or bomb the thread with scans.
The fact of the matter is that the two eras were different enough to produce two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT IDEOLOGIES.
Two "completely different ideologies". Yeah ? The ideology changed: Sacrificing useless armor and in exchange start to train people from infancy on and spent the time searching Jedi instead picking up adults randomly crossing a Jedi's way (giving them 2 decades of additional training compared to TOTJ people in the same age).
The PT being recognized as an era of peace doesn't mean anything, because according to Nai, he can count more skirmishes for the PT than TOTJ.
Where is it ever said that the PT era was an episode of peace ? You virtually have to ignore the entire Clone Wars (more than 100 KNOWN conflicts), the Stark Hyperspace War, the Battle on Galindran, the Ynchorri uprising and several civil wars to give a statement like that. And this is not "according to Nai" this is "according to the Stark Hyperspace Comics, the Republic comics, the TOTJ era comics, the Jedi Padawan series, the Clone War novels and the New Essential Chronology". You want to argue that all these are invalid sources ? Have fun.
You don't seem to understand analogies do you? The TOTJ Jedi are more equipped. I didn't say they necessarily had better technology, but they had a more militant ideology and were trained and willing "warriors."
See above.
Nothing except that they didn't even think alike, nor did they reference themselves in similar manners.
See above.
Vodo even says in Dark Lords of the Sith that "A Jedi's training never ends... perhaps you can study the things of the Dark Side." How many PT era Jedi studied the Dark Side?
Apparently every Master – hence the Sith holocrons stored in the temple. By the way: The same Vodo who takes away his holocron from Exar because he thinks that Exar isn't ready to even gain knowledge about the history of the Sith ? Can you please give me the page number of the comics where that quote comes from ?
Dace Diath wore shoulderpads and what looks to be a chestplate. Oss Willum wore shoulderpads and an arm guard, similar to Roman Gladiators. When Exar Kun, Sylvar, and Crado sparred, they wore armor and helmets. When did the PT Jedi do that? [/B]
They did it while they spared ? You can see Sylvar running arround during the Battle of Deneba wearing a normal suit and there is still nothing to suggest that this "armor" was commonly used – not even talking about if it is useful against lightsabers / blasters.
But wait, the Jedi didn't wear armor in TOTJ because due to Nai's infallible observation, there weren't that many armored Jedi!Personally, I find the fact that the Jedi in TOTJ wore battlearmor even in "times of peace" to be far more telling than your broken record points, sorry.
May I remind you of your own words:
"You can not take a ridiculously small sample and apply it to the WHOLE POPULATION with any amount of accuracy." So what ? Not even the majority of Jedi appearing in the comics wears armor. Hell...they run arround on battlefields without wearing armor. But suddenly, because 5 out of thousands wear "some parts of armor" it was commonly used by virtually everybody ?
Is this what people most likely would call a double-standart ?
http://swg.stratics.com/content/gam...aber_combat.php
On Niman: In the time of Palpatine's Chancellorship, Form VI is the current standard in Jedi lightsaber training.
I wasn't aware SWG was C-Canon or above.
As far as popularity goes, it is standard. Tell me where it is stated that every padawan goes out and learns Form VI? Anakin learning Form V tells you already that it's not a binding standard.
I can see it as standard from a philosophical standpoint. The fact of the matter is that line is not conclusive. What definition of standard are you talking about?
Man. I wasn't beliving that they switched form just beyond TPM. It can't be that hard to understand. Jedi are trained for about 25 years (usually) before the archive Knight status. Correct ? Now if Niman was the Standard form used past TPM that means that they started to train the majority of Jedi in Niman in the century before TPM with the result that most Jedi past TPM were Niman users. Also correct ? However...we apparently see quite many people not practicing Niman.
You said it yourself: "they started to train the majority of Jedi in Niman the century before TPM."
Exactly. This represents a philosophical shift in Jedi lore, they are not warriors anymore.
http://blogs.starwars.com/holocron/10Here. This is coming from the guy who's responsible for keeping the timelines straight for Lucasfilm so you probably won't get a better overview. So you have 100 Jedi participating in the arena fight.
17 survived in the arena directly
6 survived in other parts of the arena
2 presumed death but seen alive later (Saesee, Sora)That does equal a survival quote of 25 % being outnumbered more than 10 to 1 (100 Jedi and at least 1000 droids of different types + the Geonosians). And did you learn statistics ? I even said that this number isn't accurate but notice that "majority" of 10,000 people (strength of the PT era Jedi Order according to Shadowhunter) can be anything between 5,001 and 9,999. So I have something to suggest that roughly 25 % of the PT era Jedi didn't use Niman when you have nothing to suggest that more than 5,001 do so ?
Man, that's bullshit. One of the sources they cite is "GBCC: Galactic Battlegrounds: Clone Campaigns." I'll take the actual AOTC source.
There isn't any change in philosophy that you want to postulate, dude. The Jedi Code remained unchanged from pre-TotJ times to the PT. In the introduction text for "Knights of the old Republic" it says that the Jedi's task was the "preservation of harmony and justice". Is this why Arca Jeth is giving Ulic a nice lecture before sending him to Onderon: "They will want you to fight...but remember,Ulic, the Jedi bring peace...use your weapons as a last resort". Difference compared to the PT era is to be found were exactly ?
KotOR seemed to have a different philosophy than TOTJ. There were depicted marriages in KotOR, no one seemed to wear battle armor, they were far less ceremonial. In fact, KotOR resembles the PT more than it resembles TOTJ, which is an EU inconsistency.
Bush is the US president. Before him, Clinton was the president. That represents a philosophical shift. Does it mean that the US constitution was changed? No. The Jedi Code does not have to change to represent a shift in philosophy.
Yes, the Jedi bring peace, but there is more than one way to bring peace. In fact, as shown in the SAME TOTJ comic, the Jedi are willing to use violent means to bring "peace." Bush believes he's bringing peace to Iraq by deposing of a despot by force. And violence is a last resort. Difference?
How do you know that their forms were less diplomatic ? How often do I have to tell you the same thing: The PT era people had more wars going on just before the PT than the TOTJ era people had before the events descriped on KotoR. It's as simple as that. And they lived in an expanding Republic ? Maybe you shouldn't argue SW history with me because you have this nice 100 year period called "Republics Dark Ages" just before the battle of Ruusan. The Republic basically ceased to exist, all communication outside the core worlds collapsed and a great part of the Republic worlds were conquered or just joined the New Sith Empire. What do you think how the Republic took back the other worlds again to the point having more than a million member systems in TPM ? Do you think this just happened through diplomacy ?And where do you know from what fighting styles they did use ? I can tell you that most people weren't using Makashi at least - since they are mostly handling their weapons with both hands (see the fight Ulic vs Cay).
How do you know their forms were less diplomatic? Well for one, it was never stated specifically that they WERE USING the Diplomat's form, like they were stated for the PT. So are we simply to ASSUME that every era used the diplomat's form specifically simply because it wasn't stated? Are we to ASSUME that Jedi using battle armor and referencing themselves as "great warriors" use the diplomat's form? Honestly Nai, don't let your biases interfere with your judgment.
Great, you have the battle of Ruusan, which ENDED 1000 years before the PT, yet it somehow applies specifically to the PT itself.
And again you ignore the inconvenient fact that melee weapons were already out-of-date in the TOTJ era as stated when the Tetan's are descriped. They "didn't adopt to modern weapons" but instead prefered their blades while we see virtually everybody else (Mandalorians, Bandits, Beast Riders, People of Iziz) using ranged weapons. So can you please tell me why most or even a considerable amount of Jedi should prefer a form designed for lightsaber-vs-lightsaber combat when the last fight of this sort happened 250 years in the past and virtually every possible opponent is using blasters ? This is simply illogical and apparently contradicted by what we see in the source material.
So we are to assume they use Niman? Well Niman sucks at blocking blasters too.
You're missing the point. The point I was referencing with Makashi is that we KNOW it was more popular in the past, and we KNOW it's made for lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat. The fact that it was in decline and practically unused by the PT represents a philosophical shift away from battle. You can not argue that the majority of the PT and for some time prior, the general idea was to be diplomatic, that is contradicted specifically in the source.
There was no need for the PT Jedi to sent everybody to a single location. So what does that proof ? You have one event when all of the Jedi gathered on Yavin 4 compared to multiple events when you have just small forces of Jedi dispatched to a single location. So what is the more common method of getting involved in conflicts, hm ?
Where is it stated that ALL the Jedi weren't necessary? You are again missing the point, your superficial analysis does not change the fact that things were done differently.
Yes. Since I read the comics I saw every Jedi appearing in the story. What do you want to tell me now ? That Nomi is hiding a full set of armor under he cloths ? Same with Tott Doneeta ? Same with Ulic and Cay ? Same with the Jedi on Ossus, same with virtually every master appearing in the comics. If something is "commonly" used I'd like to have more than three people appearing to use it. It's like saying the a electrum lightsaber is a commonly used weapon during the PT era.
Yes, it's absolutely inconceivable someone wears armor underneath their clothes, right Nai? Absolutely inconceivable
So you are going to tell me that Dace Diath, Oss Willum, Exar Kun, Sylvar, Crado, and various other Jedi depicted in Dark Lords of the Sith wear armor just for decoration?
You're going to tell me that omniscient narrator is lying when he said that Qrrrl Toq was the manufacturer or JEDI ARMOR?
In fact, I see MOST JEDI having used armor at some point in the TOTJ series. Was this for decoration? Ulic Qel-Droma was in FULL REGALIA when he attacked Mandalore. Exar Kun was in full battle armor when he visited Onderon. After Exar Kun killed Odan-Urr, we see ALL the Jedi that confronted him with what? Battle ARMOR.
Don't tell me that your observation trumps me looking at the comics in front of me. Don't tell me that your observation trumps the NARRATOR TELLING US that the Jedi used battle armor. No logic there.
How many named characters are there? Nomi is probably one of the few that is not illustrated with battle armor in the series. Everyone else has.
Exar Kun even says "Well done, we're need all that armor for the engagement I have planned." Want to contradict Exar too?
Here's a short list of those who have used battle armor:
Sylvar
Exar Kun
Ulic Qel-Droma
Cay Qel-Droma
Oss Willum
Qrrrl Toq
Dace Diath
Crado
Aleema
All the Jedi that followed Exar Kun to Yavin
Guys like Vodo and Nomi wear FULL clothes, is it inconceivable they have battle armor underneath?
Tell me, how many closeups do you see of Jedi? Name me a few more Jedi that I didn't name and didn't have battle armor in TOTJ. But WAIT, they don't have battle armor.
You're willing to dispute the on-panel stuff now, amazing.
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So now the incompetent people are the ones that need armor. I guess you can draw your own conclusion for the PT time out of that statement than. And since when does that "armor" protect the Jedi against anybody. Didn't protect them from getting cut into pieces (or are they all using cortosis now ?) or getting shot by a blaster as it seems. So they were more martial because they did look more martial wearing virtually useless armor ?
Wow, way to twist conclusions. The point is that those individuals OUT IN THE FIELD do use armor. We have SEEN THEM use armor. Show me those in the PT that use armor. You've lost this point, concede it already.
Is that why Lucas himself calls the PT Jedi "invincible" (TPM commentary) ? Is this why the Battle of Geonosis was designed to show how much combat skill they actually have (AotC commentary). Is this why you can't simply go and ignore facts (like how many battles we have in each era) and author's intention while analyzing the sources ?And because they are all warriors trained for fighting:
Is this why we have this lecture given by Arca (see above)?
Is this why we have Odd "Combat is not my skill" Bnar ?By the way: What is more useful on a battle field - a set of armor pieces that apparently doesn't protect you against anything or two decades of additional training in force use and lightsaber combat ?
Oh really, show me where in the source is it ever stated that the TOTJ jedi don't train since childhood? Show me the source, don't cite several unusual examples such as Nomi Sunrider. Never was it ever stated that Exar Kun didn't train from childhood. Nomi Sunrider is a prodigy, she's a rare case, the people in TOTJ even say so. So why are you arguing based on one anomaly?
They basically threatened every single dude that carried a lightsaber like an invincible being. Have a look at "Shadow Hunter". Mawhi Lhinn (when seeing a durasteel plate cut by a lightsaber) just thinks that you shouldn't tangle with a Jedi since a attentive Jedi will just leave you one single opportunity for a shot and then cut you into pieces real quickly. You have an entire gang of bandits running away from Darsha (still a padawan) and Obi-Wan (another Padawan) getting attacked by 3 people with blasters just because entering a bar having a lightsaber with him.
And even on an ass backward planet like Tantooine which doesn't even belong to the Republic people only seem to recognize Jedi as virtually invincible in combat (otherwise I don't have an explanation for Anakin suggesting this). Not even talking about the Neimodians who shit their pants because having two Jedi on board of their ship (and an entire army of droids to fight them).And I don't think an organisation can receive a reputation like that by just having people sit in the temple meditating for the greater parts of their lifes.
Wow, so Jedi are stronger than your average Republic citizens. I never would have known that. I bet you that the average police officer is stronger than your average citizen. Does that mean the Police Officers will beat Navy Seals? Please Nai, let's at least try to put things in perspective.
They were people armed with blasters. Give me one single Jedi of any time period able to deflect blaster shots from 14 different persons at once.I've seen Soresu masters getting gunned down by 4 clone troopers.
And they want to capture Ulic instead of simply killing him ? Was that more or less martial than "destroy the Sith we must" (Yoda in ROTS) ?
Yes, and after Yoda says this, he goes to Palpatine himself.
After Vodo says they want to capture Ulic, he sends 8 people. To kill Exar Kun, the order sends ALL THE JEDI. When Mace wants to capture Palpatine, he sends 4 people.
So apparently 1 or 4 people > 8 or thousands. You want to argue that there isn't a difference in philosophy here?
You forgot Bariss Offee there. And I'd like to see Dooku taking down Obi-Wan and Luminara without using the force since you wanted to proof style-uberness, right ? Is that why they did sent a Soresu Master to fight Grievous (with four lightsabers) ?
Dooku's 1-handed style allows him to use the force. That's like saying let's put Yoda inside a telephone booth and ask him to fight 5 Jedi so that he isn't allowed to jump around. Don't be silly.
And the Council had a Makashi master to send to take out Grievous? Really? Who? So because they didn't send Mace, that means Mace couldn't take out Grievous? I fail to see your point.
I love how one sided logic and constant ignorance is „great debating“ when used against the PT or the post-ROTJ era when doing the same thing "sucks" when put against TOTJ sources.
No, you were guilty of one-sided logic.
When Vos (a third party) says Yoda is using battle-meditation, it's definitive.
When the narrator (an omniscient storyteller) say the Jedi use armor, AND it's depicted ONPANEL, it's somehow subjective.
Bullshit.
code (established by Odan-Urr): Didn't change.
Lightsaber styles: Didn't change.
Most enemies using blasters: Didn't change.
Main task to keep peace / harmony: Didn't change.
By this logic, there was never any difference from 5000 years of Jedi History. Nothing in that timespan changed at all. Please.
You have established nothing with the exception for „PT Jedi don't use armor“.
And that they don't have the same philosophy. There is NO EVIDENCE that the TOTJ jedi used Niman. There is evidence that Niman was the most popular form in the PT.
You won't see PT Jedi stripping someone from the force ? Is this why Vergere (a PT Jedi) used that technique against Jacen Solo in the NJO series ? So apparently that was taught in the PT era. Sorry.
Really? Association = causation.
Oh wait, it doesn't.
When was it ever used in the PT? It sure as hell would have helped against Palpatine, Maul, Dooku, and Asajj, don't you think?
Is this „less martial“ time explaining why you and equal amount of people using Battle Meditation in the PT era compared to the TOTJ era (Nomi, Thon, Arca, Ood, Odan VS Yoda, Yarael Poof, Oppo Rancicis, Jorus, Vima-Da-Boda) – a force technique that only helps you in...battles...?
Jorus was the PT era? He died before the PT.
Also tell me, how many named individuals were there in the TOTJ era? How many named individuals were there in the PT? Yes, let's compare pure numbers from different sample sizes. You repeatedly show you don't know ANYTHING about statistics. 5 people knowing battle meditation out of maybe 30 named Jedi. I say that's a pretty damn high ratio.
Is this why every damn PT Jedi knows how to short-circuit droids (TPM VD suggest that this is how they disable battle droids – that isn't a force push) a technique that was known to only one being (Arca) in the TOTJ era (while his apprentices „are still no versed in the subtle uses of the force“) ?Is this why you have PT era Jedi knowing things like Morichro and Tràkata which seem to be quite agressive ? Is this why Yoda uses lightsaber throws and slams opponents into walls using force push ? Is this why they immediatly used the Clone Army when it got in their hands instead of supporting the attempt to find a diplomatic solution for the CIS crisis ?
So wait... because of commentary, they ALL know how to do it. But because of On-Panel feat, only one guy knows how to do it. Hypocrisy much?
Show me who did it on-panel. It sure as hell would have helped in Geonosis, don't you think?
Yaddle knew Morichro, she died after TPM. What evidence do you have that other Jedi knew Morichro? Morichro itself was considered taboo because it was aggressive. So wait, every PT Jedi knew it now, how?
They immediately used the Clone Army? I seem to recall they had a debate about it in the Senate, and that they were all very much surprised and suspicious that the army was even being produced.
You failed to establish a thing. You've failed to account for the little fact that MOST depicted TOTJ Jedi are SHOWN with Battle Armor (which you've denied) and that only a FEW PT era Jedi even have aggressive force powers.
How would it be to just stop arguing possibilities but instead substanciate ? Have a look at this and this is not even containing some of the events mentioned (like the missions of Mace and Depa or Even Piells fight against the Black Sun):http://intern.darklegion.de/eddie/Battles.pdf
Just what I could find on the internet. You should be able to click on a link to reach wikipedia with some fast description / sources where to find the battles - didn't want to quote the entirety from the originals or bomb the thread with scans.
Because you've yet to show how NUMBER of battles correlates into how martial and effective the forces are. Does Onderon possess the best army in the entire galaxy? They fought every damn waking moment.
So wait, the PT era Jedi fought MORE battles, yet their philosophy is to use the diplomat's style, they don't use battle armor, and they don't attack en masse like the TOTJ Jedi. Makes tons of logical sense 🙄.
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