Battlefield SW

Continued...

Two "completely different ideologies". Yeah ? The ideology changed: Sacrificing useless armor and in exchange start to train people from infancy on and spent the time searching Jedi instead picking up adults randomly crossing a Jedi's way (giving them 2 decades of additional training compared to TOTJ people in the same age).

Yes, by Nai's infallible observation, the Armor was useless and only adults were trained.

Okay then, tell me how many Jedi Masters lived as old as Odan, Vodo, Ood, or Arca? Tell me how many PT Jedi had the potential of say a Ulic, Nomi, or Exar? Tell me how many PT Jedi were described canonically as "fearsome warriors"?

Where is it ever said that the PT era was an episode of peace ? You virtually have to ignore the entire Clone Wars (more than 100 KNOWN conflicts), the Stark Hyperspace War, the Battle on Galindran, the Ynchorri uprising and several civil wars to give a statement like that. And this is not "according to Nai" this is "according to the Stark Hyperspace Comics, the Republic comics, the TOTJ era comics, the Jedi Padawan series, the Clone War novels and the New Essential Chronology". You want to argue that all these are invalid sources ? Have fun.

Really? So since you believe the databank can prove that there were multiple holocrons, you must believe the databank can be used as a source, right?

So here:

Centuries ago, the Jedi destroyed the Sith order. A dangerous complacency set it, wherein the Jedi believed the Sith extinct.

Want to look up the definition for "complacent"? But wait... they fought in little skirmishes, they couldn't have been complacent!

But wait, because Nai observes more of these skirmishes, it COMPLETELY offsets the fact that they were not as battle-ready as their TOTJ counterparts.

See above.

See above.

I fail to see how you addressed these points.

Apparently every Master – hence the Sith holocrons stored in the temple. By the way: The same Vodo who takes away his holocron from Exar because he thinks that Exar isn't ready to even gain knowledge about the history of the Sith ? Can you please give me the page number of the comics where that quote comes from ?

Really? Is this why the databank (the source you used the "prove" that there were multiple holocrons) says the following?

The Archives contains the only known Sith Holocrons, information repositories of dark knowledge whose existence was revealed to only a few select Jedi Masters.

ONLY A FEW SELECT JEDI MASTERS = EVERY MASTER?

Okay, I think we're done here.

They did it while they spared ? You can see Sylvar running arround during the Battle of Deneba wearing a normal suit and there is still nothing to suggest that this "armor" was commonly used – not even talking about if it is useful against lightsabers / blasters.

Really? You show me where the narrator confirms she has no battle armor? Show me. Because I seem to have this:

No armor?

No armor?

Yes, Sylvar doesn't ever wear armor, because Nai possesses X-Ray vision and can SEE THROUGH her robes on the comics and make sure that she doesn't have any armor there.

My ass.

May I remind you of your own words:
"You can not take a ridiculously small sample and apply it to the WHOLE POPULATION with any amount of accuracy." So what ? Not even the majority of Jedi appearing in the comics wears armor. Hell...they run arround on battlefields without wearing armor. But suddenly, because 5 out of thousands wear "some parts of armor" it was commonly used by virtually everybody ?

Is this what people most likely would call a double-standart ?

How is a double standard?

I pointed out that most Jedi do wear battle armor in TOTJ. I do not recall any Jedi in the PT doing so.

I pointed out that the NARRATOR said that there were Jedi Armor.

I showed you scans of someone USING battle armor.

But yet, you say they don't use battle armor. And then you call double-standard when I point out your lie. Oops.

Again, Nai, I've never even seen you so much as concede a point. You'll argue until you're blue in the face even when I've proven you wrong. You won't concede that there's ever any facts because you haven't perceived them. Simply because you don't agree with my points, they are somehow false. You haven't established there is even a correlation, much less a causation. You haven't demonstrated any understanding of statistics, you've even CONTRADICTED YOURSELF with the Jedi Archives. But no, you're right. Jedi in TOTJ don't use armor. Jedi in TOTJ all use Niman. Jedi in TOTJ suck. PT Jedi pwn.

Yeah, live in your ignorant bliss. Your observation and interpretation is somehow superior to mine, your word is somehow superior to the narrator.

I guess if you still can't see the light, we're going to have to agree to disagree, as all you do is churn out broken records of what you already said without once giving me a context.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Again, Nai, I've never even seen you so much as concede a point. You'll argue until you're blue in the face even when I've proven you wrong. You won't concede that there's ever any facts because you haven't perceived them. Simply because you don't agree with my points, they are somehow false. You haven't established there is even a correlation, much less a causation. You haven't demonstrated any understanding of statistics, you've even CONTRADICTED YOURSELF with the Jedi Archives. But no, you're right. Jedi in TOTJ don't use armor. Jedi in TOTJ all use Niman. Jedi in TOTJ suck. PT Jedi pwn.

Yeah, live in your ignorant bliss. Your observation and interpretation is somehow superior to mine, your word is somehow superior to the narrator.

I guess if you still can't see the light, we're going to have to agree to disagree, as all you do is churn out broken records of what you already said without once giving me a context.

Ditto.

Wow, Nai. I thought you were over the top when it came to PT jedi, but this is it.

Yeah, I think I'm done with this thread, we haven't discussed battlefield anything in like... 10 pages, and I don't think anyone's convincing Nai of anything.

Well, I gave up on the topic a long while back... Instead, I decided to separate the eras because we have... era factions here at SWVF now.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Wow, Nai. I thought you were over the top when it came to PT jedi, but this is it.

Seems as somebody underestimated my persistence when it comes to the "truth", right ? It's nice how Illustrious is contradicting the source material and the inventors of that stuff but I am the fanboy. Here some inconvenient details some people here are missing over and over again:

Philosophy
So there was a change in philosophy that caused a less martial view on certain situations ? Let's have a look at the actual source material: Is this why Arca Jeth who just sends his apprentices on a mission to end the war on Onderon gives Ulic a lecture about not to fight and use his weapon as a last resort only ?

Is this why he declares said mission a failure because Ulic and his comrades have caused another battle on Onderon here instead of using the way of a Jedi: Meditation ?

Is this why Arca starts lecturing Ulic in the middle of a battle field instead of focusing on the fight and in turns gets shot by a single droid. I didn't see that happen on Geonosis:

Is this why Nomi Sunrider and her fellow Jedi leave a Dark Jedi who just used a "deadly" Sith Amulet against them seconds before where he is because thinking he has to come back on his own since "this is the Jedi way" ? I didn't see Yoda, Anakin and Obi-Wan (or anybody else) giving Dooku such an opportunity in AotC.

Is this why people who focus on studying the force consider that "Combat isn't their skill" like Ood Bnar:

But yes...they did sent some more people to some battles when needed, right ? Is this why Arca Jeth sents three people to end a war as seen above and then has to intervent after 3 days ?

Is this why when having basically hundrets of volunteers they just sent 5 people to Onderon where one of their greatest masters has just fallen to Sith sorcery ?

And because the PT era Jedi never sent huge groups to a single location I guess the Battle on Geonosis (more than 200 Jedi involved) the Battle on Galindraan (at least 40 Jedi involved - who went medieval on the Mandalorians) and the Stark Hyperspace War (10 Jedi involved) did never happen right ?

Sorry Illustrious: You can't postulate a change of philosophy to something less martial by using examples for people acting against said philosophy in TOTJ, anomalies (like sending everyone to stop Kun) and ignore / contradict half of the source material. That's like saying "Jedi will kill helpless and already beaten enemies" because Anakin killed Dooku.

continue...

...continue:

Battle Armor
Yes, the TOTJ era Jedi had parts of battle armor and did even were them in their free time. Is this why some people walked around on battlefields to which they were sent with normal clothing ?

Does Vodo, who is by far the most "martial" Master of the TOTJ era carry a full set of armor below that here:

You consider some wrist guards "Battle Armor" ? Is Luminara now a martial TOTJ era Jedi ?

And that things must offer huge protection. Is this why Sylvar was able to shatter Exar's helmet and give him some nice scars on his face with a single strike of her claw ?

That must result in a great protection against blasters and lightsabers, huh ? Which they might not even need if they can block blasters with their bare hands:

or have "force shields" able to stop huge blaster cannons which this here suggests:

So what was it that makes them so uber because they have armor which is apparently completely useless because it isn't even able to protect them against hits with some claws and they can block most attacks with their force powers only ?

Lightsaber Combat
Yes. We have a "declinement of Makashi" for the PT era. Let's just ignore that they had a 1,000 year war against Sith only just before that which would have made it quite useful to train Makashi. And let's just estimate that the TOTJ era people used it more commonly - without having a reason. And let us just ignore the inconvenient source material too, because two of the greatest duellist while facing each other, masters of lightsaber combat, grab their lightsabers with two hands and exchange powerful strikes.

Not even a hint of Makashi being used by Ulic or Kun – more looks like form V to me. But maybe they changed styles. This might be true for Kun (with his unique weapon, he often wields one handed) but when we see Cay vs Ulic:

What a surprise. Still using the blade with two hands and still giving hard strikes. Still no use of Makashi even hinted. That looks more like Luke "baseball bat" Skywalker in ROTJ.

But well...majority of PT Jedi used Niman, right ? Which is a sucky form, right ?

According to this:
http://swg.stratics.com/content/gameplay/professions/jedi/lightsaber_combat.php

an article which is just written by David West Reynolds, who is just one of the two inventors of the lightsaber styles, a Niman user trains 10 years: 4 years basic training (form I), 2 years Soresu (form III), 2 years Ataru (form IV), 2 years Djem-So (form V). So they don't study "a sucky form" but instead study the forms but not as long as normal users of said forms. And they learn to handle that weapon from infancy on in contrary to the TOTJ era people. Ah well...

Training time
It's nice how you labelled Nomi Sunrider an "anomaly" in terms of training time Illustrious, but again you've just ignored some inconvenient facts:

- Ulic and Cay were sent to Arca when they were already grown up
- Oss Willum was trained for "a few years" and he's clearly not 5 years old
- Tott Doneeta started training with Ulic and Cay
- and for Exar:

Do you really think that it took him, the lightsaber prodigy, his entire lifetime up to this point just to "almost finish his lightsaber training" when regular people mastered styles in about 10 years ? And because Jedi were trained from infancy is that why Vima Sunrider at the age of 14 was almost completely untrained (see Redemption) despite the fact that she was the daughter of one of the most powerful Jedi in her era ? Is this why "training people from infancy" was introduced by the Ruusan reformation ? Ups.

It's nice how I am biased when you people keep ignoring or contradicting the actual sources not even talking about the creators of all the stuff. Interpretation of things created by human beings (such as the movies, the comics and the literature) can't be done by just applying scientific reasoning (empiricism) on the sources only because by doing so you're removing parts of the "entire picture" from the interpretation such as:
- the intention of the authors
- interdependency of the sources
- thoughts / development of the characters

You simply can't ignore Lucas comments on the Jedi ("invicible", "Golden Age of the Jedi"😉 or on the scenes ("this should show what great warriors they are" on the Battle of Geonosis, "I wanted to make clear that this is a Jedi's usual day" during the chase at the beginning of AotC) just because they aren't matching your personal interpretation of the events displayed.

Mike Wong did the same thing while analyzing the fight on Geonosis. He went by what the film shows without knowing:
- that this arena fight was a cover up for the other Jedi trying to sabotage the battle droids
- that Grievous was running arround behind the scenes slaughtering Jedi that tried to reach Dooku
- Mace's problems with slaying Dooku, his old friend, which he adresses in Shatterpoint

Of course the information that is given later (outside the film) changes the perspective on the actual event in the movie. The same way that you can say that Neo in the end of "Matrix" can't be defeated or wounded by normal weapons - until you see the next two films of the trilogy where he gets cut by a sword and beaten up by Agent Smith.

And this is what you do here: You use the original source material and [i]ignore[/b] the information given later by other material which does have an influence (through interdependency) on the material you used. Of course this can't lead to an accurate interpretation of events.
On the same level I could just argue Ulic's saber abilities because he has his ass handed to a training droid in the beginning of TOTJ - would that make sense ? I guess not. Think about it.

Nai over