Re: The Perpetual Prison Crisis
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
This is an issue which striked me as something interesting to post.Im sure many of you are familiar with the overcrowding of prisons that is happening, particularly so in te United States as well as Britain.
Now, overcrowding, as you might imagine would bring many difficulties to the prisoners. A cells which are intended to have one person in it, are now accommodating up to 3 people.
Maximum seurity prisons, I remember reading not so long ago have their inmates locked alone in cells for up to 23 hours a day, with no conversation, no reading material, no choice of a movement, no work and no education available.
This all contributes the the mental illness which occurs in prisons, as well as high suicide rate.
Perhaps the question is ''do we care''. I think we SHOULD care, but here are some questions you could think about.
Is prisoner still considered a human being? If so, why are they denied many basic human rights.
What is the purpose of prison? If the prison is to teach the prisoners a lesson or to reform, then overcrowding and institutional racism do not contribute to any kind of education nor reform for these people.
If it is to punish, then you must agree that the kind of mental torture imposed on these people is beyond sinister.
Baring in mind that prisons are full of people whos offences range is vast - from extremely serious, to a petty drug dealing.
Thoughts?
I've been to prison and I can tell you, that a lot of that is true. It's not uncommon to find a friend of your's hanging from the ceiling rafters by electrical cord.
Prisons are intended to "recuperate and help" but all they usually do is postpone the problem.
From what I can remember of my old legal studies a prison has three uses - retribution - this is what it is most seen at by the public, though in reality it is the second most important. So prison is punishment.
Recuperation - Prison reeducates a person, brings them into line, whatever, so they don't commit crime again. This is the main purpose.
Protection - Protects the community from an individual until such a time as they are no longer a threat. Also protects certain individuals from an angered community.
Now the problem is prison does a crappy job at most of those. There is no real stratification - you can have a variety of people for crimes ranging from the very minor to the very severe. Does a stupid teenager who does a bit a graffiti deserve to be in with guys at the other end of the scale? Yes some would say. The problem is that prison breeds criminal behaviour. A person who is not inherently bad and in for a minor offence faces tough going surrounded by far more dangerous criminals, and all sorts of abuse. Still, you do the crime you do the time.
But, this leads to them having a far harder time getting back to normality outside. Prison changes people. Ah, you say, it's meant to. The problem is that it doesn't always do it the way it is meant to.
Recidivism rates (re-offending) in the US, Australia and the UK are terribly high for numerous reasons. First prison can create the lifelong convict - they can't survive outside, thus they commit crime to get back in. Second prejudice against former inmates means they have a harder time outside and are more likely to re-offend. Third prison might have just failed to address what they needed to be correctly re-educated. There are a couple more.
As such there is a cycle of people who will never really be better in the criminal system, a cycle of people who experience things in prison far harsher then their crime calls for, there are the occasional innocent people and so on.
Now prisons are indubitably required for the protection and punishment aspects, but increasingly they are falling down in the most important - the reeducation. There is little purpose to the whole process if a person is just as likely, or more likely, to commit a crime when released due to fundamental failures of the system. Thus that would bring as to what needs to be done to correct this. The problem there is that no body really knows, but it is a problem they are working on.
I was under the impression that Prisons are mostly there to protect society from harm. And that the reasons you stated are, or should be, secondary.
Other than that I agree, there is no reason why anyone should be forced to live in such inhumane conditions, especially when you are in Governmental custody.
That's a sad thing, really. Prison systems here in the states are pretty heavy with rape and gangrape, along with a form of sexual servitude, and the guards don't particularly care. This leads to a rapid increase of AIDS and Hepatitis C among other things, not to mention it's just a disgusting element of human nature- to dominate others that way and abuse them. They say you can judge a society by the condition of its prisoners... Are we really doing people a favor by herding them all into some kind of pen? Like I pointed out before, a lot of people behind bars are either victims of abuse and poor upbringing, or born with that extra Y chromosone which makes them more violent. Is locking them up so they can hurt each other and diverting funds to keep them alive really the answer? What ever happened to an eye for an eye? That certainly would be a stronger deterent. Every day on the news you hear someone who slipped through the legal system or got out of prison in a short amount of time and sexually assaults and murders more people. If the justice system had decided against petty short term lockup and castrated the ****er in the first place or killed him, there wouldn't be this problem. For certain level crimes, the idea of keeping someone locked up but alive is foolish.
Well I don't know where to reply first, but I'll start with a general reply.
Denial of any kind of institutional racism is simply absurd. African-American is SIX times more likely to be arrested than a white person. One black man in nine today is under riminal oversight.
It is wrong and misinformed to think that skin colour and crime are connected in any way.
Drug dealing does happen a lot in Ghettos, true, I do not deny this. African Americans are in worst situation than white people. One in three blac people live below poverty line in America, as opposed to One in ten white people, so they are more likely to engage in crime.
It is the fact that a Prison System will treat a white person more leniency than a black person when it comes to drugs, murder or rape. In fact any kind of crime.
Second, black population IS 12-14%, and nowhere near 30%. People, get your countries statistics checked.
Come on, it is ridiculous to even suggest that there is no such thing as institutional racism within American Justice system.
...
As for prisons...the prison IS the punishment. Every other violation of human rights within the prison is wrong, I would argue.
The very sense of taking someone's liberty away is the punishment. The insane terrible conditions of the prison, the mental and physical 'torture' are afterall inhumane things which should not be allowed.
I think most of us, unless we've been in prison, would have hard time comprehending the idea of having our very basic freedom of liberty taken away, and on top of that, being abused, mentally and physically every single day, would you not agree?
I don't doubt that racism is a big problem in the legal system of the USA, but I also think that there are actually more Black males committing crimes than White males.
Not because they are Black but because the environment for many Blacks in the USA today is much worse than for most whites. I think if more whites had to live under the exact same conditions the crime rate of white males would increase rapidly....
Has anyone discussed the racial implications of actually being a prisoner? In lament's terms, I'm talking about the politics of what goes on each and every day for a prisoner. What races would thrive there? In even more lament's terms, since stats on here are saying the percentage of prison population by race, what race would you rather be while behind bars 24/7 ?
p.s. the guy who said 30% was talking about San Jose, not the US as a whole. The town I work in is 60% black, so there are very many extremes in different parts of the country. You really have to live here to understand many things that aren't found on statistical websites.
There are lies, damn lies and stastistics....................information to be had is information to be controlled.
Now I am only going to post some of these stastistics from places I have recently lived so
Maryland-28 % black
Washington DC-60% black
Virginia-20 % black
Missouri-11% black
I'm sure if we also took a closer look at the areas of high crime we might get a better picture of what this really means as opposed to the USA of 13% black. Really your attempting to paint the broadest demographic picture possible and the picture comes up looking like shit.
However I am certainly not suggesting there isn't some sort of racism, what I am suggesteing is there is significantly less then you imply based off your face figures.
On the topic of prisons though and what inmates have to endure I think a problem aside from what the instition does inmates create their own enviroment there which is probably as hard as the instition itself.
Crime sucks you break the law you do the time, for some people prison is better the life on the streets and thats really gotta suck.
Re: The Perpetual Prison Crisis
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
What is the purpose of prison? If the prison is to teach the prisoners a lesson or to reform, then overcrowding and institutional racism do not contribute to any kind of education nor reform for these people.If it is to punish, then you must agree that the kind of mental torture imposed on these people is beyond sinister.
Baring in mind that prisons are full of people whos offences range is vast - from extremely serious, to a petty drug dealing.
Thoughts?
The purpose of prison is simple....to lock up convicted criminals and keep them from harming productive members of society and their families. If an individual is trial and found to be a dangerous person for society he/she either goes to jail or goes to mental institution. Prison isn't always the primary solution.
There is no such thing as petty drug dealing. Any individual selling drugs to a child is nowhere near petty. He/She is a criminal and a harm to society. You may go on to philosophy that drugs aren't dangerous. But trying to get kids to get into the addiction is wrong, criminal, and evil. You break the law you do the time.
Perhaps the question is ''do we care''. I think we SHOULD care, but here are some questions you could think about.
I don't care about them, by majority. I do feel bad for the non-violent offenders but they make up the minority of the prison population. Any man or woman in prison for causing violence towards another can just die for all I care. They obviously refuse to abide by the rules of a civilized society but still wanted to remain in that society to reap the advantages. Nothing in this life is free. You want to live in our society..you follow the rules.
Is prisoner still considered a human being? If so, why are they denied many basic human rights.
basic human rights are food and water. They recieve both. they should thank their lucky stars for anything additional they are given.
What is the purpose of prison? If the prison is to teach the prisoners a lesson or to reform, then overcrowding and institutional racism do not contribute to any kind of education nor reform for these people.
people who argue that prisons are for reform are dillusional. Any education or councilling an inmate recieves is just as available for them without being locked behind bars. The only purpose for a prison is to separate these individuals from the society they refused to obey the laws of.
If it is to punish, then you must agree that the kind of mental torture imposed on these people is beyond sinister.
you're right. They should save us tax payers the burden of torturing them and just put them down. If a dog shows violence tendencies.....bites just one person....it is put to sleep as it is deemed unredeemable. There is no way to say that the same animal won't harm someone else in the future as it has already showed it has the capacity to do so. Humans who commit violence towards others are worse than animals. They actually know/understand the affects and consequences of their actions before hand yet choose to do them anyway.
As for your statistics on race/population ratio in the prison system in the U.S........
While I agree that a percentage of the black prison population is due to an unjust system.....there are many more factors to consider. Most of them culturally. In a very large subculture of the black population it is actually considered "cool" and "respectable" to commit crimes and go to prison. It is something to brag about, not be shameful of. Just listen to any random rap album. It is also not a coincidence that a greater number of black children are raised soly by their mother, no father in the picture. How does a boy grow up to be a respectable man if there's not a grown and respectable man in his life to mentor, guide or live up to?
Originally posted by botankus
Has anyone discussed the racial implications of actually being a prisoner? In lament's terms, I'm talking about the politics of what goes on each and every day for a prisoner. What races would thrive there? In even more lament's terms, since stats on here are saying the percentage of prison population by race, what race would you rather be while behind bars 24/7 ?p.s. the guy who said 30% was talking about San Jose, not the US as a whole. The town I work in is 60% black, so there are very many extremes in different parts of the country. You really have to live here to understand many things that aren't found on statistical websites.
Well for one, I do not get my statistics from ''statistic websites'' but from books.
I'll reference them all, in case you would all like to go have a read.
Tonry Malign Neglect: Race Crime & Punishment in America, Oxford Univ. Press, 1995
J. Reiman The Rich get Richer and the Poor get Prison, 2nd. Edition, Wiley, 1984
D. Garland 2001 Mass Imprisonment: social causes and consequences, Sage.
Useem, B. et al 2003 Popular Support for the Prison Build-up. Punishment & Society, Vol. 5 No. 1 Jan. 2003.
Also ''Oxford Handbook of Criminology'', which I don't have on me, so i can't do a full reference.
The journal you can upload on the web somewhere for free, im sure, but the books I doubt.
Originally posted by Soleran
There are lies, damn lies and stastistics....................information to be had is information to be controlled.Now I am only going to post some of these stastistics from places I have recently lived so
Maryland-28 % black
Washington DC-60% black
Virginia-20 % black
Missouri-11% blackI'm sure if we also took a closer look at the areas of high crime we might get a better picture of what this really means as opposed to the USA of 13% black. Really your attempting to paint the broadest demographic picture possible and the picture comes up looking like shit.
However I am certainly not suggesting there isn't some sort of racism, what I am suggesteing is there is significantly less then you imply based off your face figures.
On the topic of prisons though and what inmates have to endure I think a problem aside from what the instition does inmates create their own enviroment there which is probably as hard as the instition itself.
Crime sucks you break the law you do the time, for some people prison is better the life on the streets and thats really gotta suck.
Significantly less racism? And how would you know, privilege boy? Are you black? Have you ever been to prison and on the street, to know where black convict perfer to be?
My statistics have more face falue since they are collected by individuals who are researching a certain topic - you might be suprised, but a majority of academic, when they are researching something, they are research it, not to PROVE whatever THEY feel like at that point in tim, but to understand and look for the answer, surprisingly.
Not that anyone listens to academics anyway...
There is one thing that never seas to anger me, and upset me like a statement from a white person about the lack or over exaggeration of racism towards black people.
Originally posted by Evil Dead
you're right. They should save us tax payers the burden of torturing them and just put them down.
Giving someone a death penalty costs more money than keeping him/her in prison. This is a least known fact by the general public.
Wanna check it out for yourself. Go to www.deathpenaltyinfo.org for all your questions about costs answered.
You ae by far the most typically dellusional of us all - do you know where your tax money goes? It goes in building arms and military - not to hospitals, or schools, or prisons, or youth centres or libraries or anything of the sorts.
If your money paid for the prison in the extent you are trying to argue we wouldnt be having this conversation about the state of prison.
Away from the specifics of prison, I would like to say that there is a vast difference between statistics and real life.
I say I'm from a rural Southern town...immediately people who are used to statistics and not from here assume it's loaded with bible-beating rednecks salivating at a chance to form a lynch mob. Well, it does have a few rednecks, but the majority of the people in this town are black and very religious. So I guess they could be considered Bible beating, but they are not rednecks, have been nothing but friendly to me in the five years I have known everyone here, and probably wouldn't take too kindly to their town being stereotyped just because of its geographical location.
I would take a local man with an IQ of 40's generalization of how things work around here over the most intellectual of scholars who had never come within 1000 miles of this place - any day of the week.
Originally posted by botankus
Okay, that's nice, but what about the rest of my points?
Ok, lets adress the rest of your post about what skin colour i would want to have in prison.
As for racial implications in prison, people do not mix, at least not in the prison they are allowed to eat in the halls, as opposed in their rooms. Black people are on one side, white people on the other usually accompanied by Hispanic, Chinese or Asians, although this is not a rule.
I would perfer not to be in prison at all, and if Im in there, I don't see why I would want to be either colour or nationality.
Prison you see on the movies, and the prison that it is in crisis, are somewhat different. I am not sure what you are trying to ask me.
Giving someone a death penalty costs more money than keeping him/her in prison. This is a least known fact by the general public.
Another twisted little bit of information but I'll clear up what it means.
And the reason it costs so much more is because of the amount of man hours and resources used to verify the person is guilty as charged, the actual death penalty is alot less expesive then a year in prison.
Eating at other ends of the hall is a self imposed piece not done by the prison itself. Inamtes create more of their enviroment in there then they would like you to believe.
Originally posted by botankus
Away from the specifics of prison, I would like to say that there is a vast difference between statistics and real life.I say I'm from a rural Southern town...immediately people who are used to statistics and not from here assume it's loaded with bible-beating rednecks salivating at a chance to form a lynch mob. Well, it does have a few rednecks, but the majority of the people in this town are black and very religious. So I guess they could be considered Bible beating, but they are not rednecks, have been nothing but friendly to me in the five years I have known everyone here, and probably wouldn't take too kindly to their town being stereotyped just because of its geographical location.
I would take a local man with an IQ of 40's generalization of how things work around here over the most intellectual of scholars who had never come within 1000 miles of this place - any day of the week.
What you are describing is generalisation, not ''statistics''. Statistics collected in prisons are done so based on the registration of the people.
Go to a federal prison website - you can search for people using their name surname, ''race'' and age.
Every prisoner HAS these infos - it isn't a ''make up statistics'' time, its counting people within the prison system which are black/white/hispanic/asian...etc