Originally posted by Gideon
The issue has been discussed and revisited on countless threads and reaffirmed each and every time. Emperor Palpatine is the most powerful of all the Dark Lords of the Sith; he's proven as much in both deed and canon statements. If it's going to be argued again, the opposition has to attempt to refute the issue.And by refute, I don't mean slapping down "ambiguous!" and expecting anyone to listen to a damn word of it. Anything contrary to the straightforward conclusion (which is that Palpatine is the strongest) bears the burden of proof.
Gideon, if there's anything our past debates have truly proven (aside from the facts that I'm officially an E-Hotshot, and The Man™), it's that you have no understanding of the burden of proof whatsoever. My post was addressed to the people who have made the claim that Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord there's ever been, without offering up the required proof. None of what you just said (which remains completely unsupported by the way; labelling a belief the "straightforward conclusion," or claiming that the proof has already been provided does not make it the case, especially considering that in the vast, vast majority of our debates, you've failed in continuing to respond on the matter, only to be whining like a woman in the next thread, saying that it's already been done, like you're doing now) changes the fact that it's up to the person who makes the claim to provide the proof for it. If what you're saying - about the proof already being provided - is in fact true, then it really shouldn't be hard for you (well, maybe a little hard for you) to provide a link to where that was the case.
Originally posted by E-Hotshot
Gideon, if there's anything our past debates have truly proven (aside from the facts that I'm officially an E-Hotshot, and [b]The Man™), it's that you have no understanding of the burden of proof whatsoever. My post was addressed to the people who have made the claim that Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord there's ever been, without offering up the required proof. None of what you just said (which remains completely unsupported by the way; labelling a belief the "straightforward conclusion," or claiming that the proof has already been provided does not make it the case, especially considering that in the vast, vast majority of our debates, you've failed in continuing to respond on the matter, only to be whining like a woman in the next thread, saying that it's already been done, like you're doing now) changes the fact that it's up to the person who makes the claim to provide the proof for it. If what you're saying - about the proof already being provided - is in fact true, then it really shouldn't be hard for you (well, maybe a little hard for you) to provide a link to where that was the case. [/B]
Actually, only a few things have been proven between your debates.
1. Escape owns you in every aspect of life
2. You have a clinical case of denial
3. Your intelligence and debating skills rival those of the first homosapiens on this planet.
4. You have no life, no friends, nothing to do, otherwise you wouldn't come back after 30+ bans and a shitload of pwnage...
Originally posted by E-Hotshot Gideon, if there's anything our past debates have truly proven (aside from the facts that I'm officially an E-Hotshot, and The Man™), it's that you have no understanding of the burden of proof whatsoever.
Ah, yes, the legendary "wit" of Nebaris is featured quite strongly in this diatribe, how riveting. As someone who is egotistical and narcissistic by nature, I have to say that you give the rest of us a bad name; really, your remarks make you look like a self-deluded, illogical prepubescent who participates in internet forums to cope with the obvious rejection of what life has to offer. The problem is that, as the adminstration of this fine establishment has proven, you're not even wanted here. But being the universal standard for rejection and disdain, I'm sure you're used to it. Perhaps even addicted to it. That might explain your desperate returns here, the agonizing compulsion to feel relevant or to be viewed as intelligent.
As far as my understanding of the burden of proof is concerned, you resurrected this thread. The question regarding Palpatine's status as the supreme Lord of the Sith has long-since been answered by individuals such as Lightsnake, ACstyles, and myself. If you wish to contest that -- as I have attempted to convey to you, all this time -- you must refute it. And since all of your rebuttals simply consist of failed attempts to question the validity of canon statements and blindly stamping ambiguity on whatever material you don't approve of, you have offered nothing new or concrete. You've yet to hold your end, so there is no point in revisiting the issue until you've gained some new material.
My post was addressed to the people who have made the claim that Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord there's ever been, without offering up the required proof. None of what you just said (which remains completely unsupported by the way; labelling a belief the "straightforward conclusion," or claiming that the proof has already been provided does not make it the case, especially considering that in the vast, vast majority of our debates, you've failed in continuing to respond on the matter, only to be whining like a woman in the next thread, saying that it's already been done, like you're doing now) changes the fact that it's up to the person who makes the claim to provide the proof for it.
As has been explained before (and for the final time), Palpatine's status in the strata above all other Lords of the Sith has been cemented within canon itself -- it is the straightforward conclusion. It has been stated that he is the most powerful, the greatest, and the one who has "succeeded where all others failed" in taming the dark side on numerous occasions. Three separate sources (the Complete Visual Dictionary, the Essential Guide to the Force, and the Dark Side Sourcebook) prove that he is the most powerful Sith Lord in the Sith Order and/or in the past millennium, putting him above Bane automatically. There is nothing to discuss, since you clearly have nothing to refute the sources that have been cited, though -- of course -- you'll always attempt to label them as "ambiguous" and cite how Bane channelled the power of the Brotherhood of Darkness's Force energies clearly gives him the edge. And it won't matter.
If what you're saying - about the proof already being provided - is in fact true, then it really shouldn't be hard for you (well, maybe a little hard for you) to provide a link to where that was the case.
The proof has been provided on numerous occasions, I reiterate. You've attempted to argue against them numerous times. Sources can't be ignored, canon statements dissolved, and facts rendered void simply because they form a conclusion that you don't like.
Now, until such a time that you manage to prove contrary to canon, we need no longer have this discussion. As I've told you before, you're simply one unenlightened, desperate, tiny voice in a vast sea of screaming individuals who sing the same fact: Palpatine is the most powerful Sith ever. I'm not bound by a desire or need to prove or disprove this fact, any longer.
In the end, Nebaris, I win. Perhaps -- within your next thirty bans -- you'll realize it, too. 😉
Originally posted by Gideon
Ah, yes, the legendary "wit" of Nebaris is featured quite strongly in this diatribe, how riveting. As someone who is egotistical and narcissistic by nature, I have to say that you give the rest of us a bad name; really, your remarks make you look like a self-deluded, illogical prepubescent who participates in internet forums to cope with the obvious rejection of what life has to offer. The problem is that, as the adminstration of this fine establishment has proven, you're not even wanted here. But being the universal standard for rejection and disdain, I'm sure you're used to it. Perhaps even addicted to it. That might explain your desperate returns here, the agonizing compulsion to feel relevant or to be viewed as intelligent.
Translation: After having the obvious truth revealed to me, and realizing that I never will be an E-Hotshot, The Man™, or ever have as large a penis as The N-Man does, I will proceed to dress up as Publius, place his fictional essays in front of me, and pretend to be him, and that includes trying to sound as clever, witty, and funny as I can, and hoping that I don't fail on all three counts.
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..... For the record, you failed on all three counts.
As far as my understanding of the burden of proof is concerned, you resurrected this thread.
^ Perfect example of why you're a second rate debater (and not Publius), at best.
As always, you're commiting the irrelevant misdirection fallacy. The fact that I "resurrected" this thread doesn't change the fact that it was in response to people (that would include yourself) who have been making a certain claim, and have failed to provide the required proof that comes along with it. The purpose for this thread was to have somewhere where they could do all of that in one place. I never even made a claim on the matter, so the fact that you would try to shift the burden of proof onto me further cements the idea that you're a Darth Sexy level logician.
The question regarding Palpatine's status as the supreme Lord of the Sith has long-since been answered by individuals such as Lightsnake, ACstyles, and myself.
Repeating a falsehood as much as possible doesn't make it any less of a falsehood. The entire purpose of me bringing back this thread was for people to provide the proof (if it exists) for people who haven't seen it, and by that, I mean fully substantiated on, and properly sourced.
If you wish to contest that -- as I have attempted to convey to you, all this time -- you must refute it.
As someone who's commited the burden of proof fallacy about seven hundred gazzilion billion million times, I really don't know who you think you're fooling by trying to act as if you know what you're talking about.
Now let's pretend that everything you're saying about it being proven that Palpatine is most powerful Sith Lord there's ever been truly is the case (it's nice to pretend, isn't it, "Publius"😉; now think of me as someone who has yet to see this proof, and is asking for it from certain people who have stated it numerous times without supporting such a statement.
That's what this thread is for, and the burden of proof is on the people that made the claim without backing it up, and they alone.
And since all of your rebuttals simply consist of failed attempts to question the validity of canon statements and blindly stamping ambiguity on whatever material you don't approve of, you have offered nothing new or concrete. You've yet to hold your end, so there is no point in revisiting the issue until you've gained some new material.
Again, simply saying that as much is the case doesn't make it true.
Prove up.
As has been explained before (and for the final time), Palpatine's status in the strata above all other Lords of the Sith has been cemented within canon itself -- it is the straightforward conclusion. It has been stated that he is the most powerful, the greatest, and the one who has "succeeded where all others failed" in taming the dark side on numerous occasions. Three separate sources (the Complete Visual Dictionary, the Essential Guide to the Force, and the Dark Side Sourcebook) prove that he is the most powerful Sith Lord in the Sith Order and/or in the past millennium, putting him above Bane automatically.
For the mentally challenged members of the forum:
Given the constant claims going around these forums that Sidious is - undeniably - the most powerful Sith Lord there's ever been (as in his fighting prowess, in the context of these arena type battles), I felt the need to have one relevant thread active, where all the conclusive proof can be provided (and be fully elaborated on and substantiated, as well as properly sourced), in one place, if such proof does indeed exist.
There is nothing to discuss, since you clearly have nothing to refute the sources that have been cited, though -- of course -- you'll always attempt to label them as "ambiguous"
*Sigh*
Not that I have to do this:
killermovies.kom/forums/showthread.php?threadid=473551&pagenumber=4
If you're referring to what's said in the Dark Side Sourcebook (which is the only source that might appear to directly state as much), here's the exact passage:
When the Sith finally emerged from a thousand years of watching and waiting, they numbered in accordance with the tradition set down by Darth Bane, only two. The most powerful of these was Darth Sidious, an ice-cold, diabolically calculating genius equipped with the strengths of the dark side of the Force, as well as an enormous wealth of Sith artifacts, equipment, and knowledge. Perhaps the best weapon in his arsenal was his keen understanding of galactic politics, and his seemingly unlimited ability to engineer situations that ultimately served to further empower the sith.'
As can be seen, whether Palpatine is being stated to be the most powerful of the entire Sith Order that had been "watching and waiting [for a thousand years]," or the two then current Sith that had "finally emerged" is extremely vague. Not to mention, given the context, where Palpatine's intelligence, understanding of politics, and ability to manipulate situations to his advantage are all elaborated on directly after Palpatine is described as "The most powerful," the exact meaning of "powerful" in this case is up for interpretation.
killermovies.kom/forums/showthread.php?threadid=474436&pagenumber=4
Here's the actual entire passage surrounding the quote you're referring to:
Vader could sense the hostility of some of the men behind Tarkin, but that was of no importance. Hostile words or actions he could and would deal with, but thoughts of the weak-minded were no threat.
Tarkin, oily and smooth as always, was a man who knew where his best interests lay, and as long as his own plans matched those of the Emperor, he was a useful tool. Which was good, because Vader would not hesitate to use that tool.
The Rebels were turning out to be more troublesome than many had expected. The Emperor had known it would be thus, of course; the resistance had not been a surprise to him. The Emperor was completely in concert with the dark side of the Force. He was the most powerful Sith who had ever existed.
As would Vader be, someday.
But that was in the future. Now he had more mundane duties. There were problems with the construction of this station. When Vader left, those problems would be corrected. He would return as necessary to correct more troubles as they appeared, and he would also return at times when things were proceeding smoothly, just to remind Tarkin and his senior officers that the Emperor's eye was always watching them.
Always.
Now, as can be seen, the passage constantly refers to Vader's thoughts, feelings, and perceptions, which would make it very likely that the passage is indirectly voicing him. This idea is cemented with the sentence that follows directly from the one you've been referring to:
"As would Vader be, someday."
If the passage were really being spoken directly from an omniscient source, then we would be forced to subscribe to the idea that Vader -- at some point in time -- eventually did become the most powerful Sith Lord there's ever been, and managed to surpass Sidious, yet we know that never happened. In other words, the only way in which the sentence would make sense would be if it were coming from the perspective of a fallible source, and in this case, that fallible source quite clearly is Vader, as supported above, and further supported by the idea that he's shown to possess that belief (that he would oneday surpass Sidious) in numerous sources.
Not to mention, even if that were actually directly coming from an omniscient narrator (which it definitely isn't), the word "powerful" is ambiguous, and in this context, to assume that it refers to a personal level of combat adeptness is completely ridiculous. Refer to the sentence just before the one you've been referring to, where it's said that:
"The Emperor was completely in concert with the dark side of the Force."
I doubt you even understand what that means, so I'll tell you; it means that every action that Palpatine took, and every goal he possessed, were all with the full interests of the dark side at heart. In other words, he was as dedicated towards it as one can get. That sense of dedication made him powerful, in the sense that he was willing to be patient where others wouldn't (waiting for decades until he could eradicate the Jedi and conquer most of the Galaxy for instance) and do things which he completely detested (such as his pleasantries with the Jedi, his most hated enemies).
So to recap, there's no way in which you can conclusively prove that the statement speaks in respect to battle prowess, and the context would make it appear that such an idea is certainly not the case.
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^ The two most commonly used quotes for your argument = owned.
and cite how Bane channelled the power of the Brotherhood of Darkness's Force energies clearly gives him the edge. And it won't matter.
Quit spreading lies. I've never used what Bane does with the BoD to address the canon statements, Gideon, I've used it in completely different arguments, and even then, the most I'll ever say is that it makes him "logically" more powerful, not "undeniably" more powerful.
The proof has been provided on numerous occasions, I reiterate.
My revival of this thread was for the proof to be provided for those who haven't seen it, I reiterate.
You've attempted to argue against them numerous times.[quote]And they've/you've been owned, each and every time.
[quote]Sources can't be ignored, canon statements dissolved, and facts rendered void simply because they form a conclusion that you don't like.
Strawman.
I haven't been ignoring any facts, Gideon, I've been analysing them and proving how they don't undeniably reach your conclusion. All you've done is post them without substantiating them, and whined about perfectly valid debating defences.
Now, until such a time that you manage to prove contrary to canon, we need no longer have this discussion. As I've told you before, you're simply one unenlightened, desperate, tiny voice in a vast sea of screaming individuals who sing the same fact: Palpatine is the most powerful Sith ever. I'm not bound by a desire or need to prove or disprove this fact, any longer.
Firstly, nothing would please me more. I'd rather have the discussion with someone like Elite Hunter or Lightsnake, they make for far more interesting debates (there is a reason why both myself and Advent blocked you from MSN, lol 😂 ).
Secondly, I'd suggest joining a debate class, or at least spending a few hours of research on the internet (or even through the wisdom of my posts), as you know nothing about the flow of a debate.
In the end, Nebaris, I win. Perhaps -- within your next thirty bans -- you'll realize it, too. 😉
I was actually going to go easy on you, but this is what forced me to reply. You know how I feel about ugly ass men winking at me. Quit it, or feel my wrath.
Nebaris you can question the context of the quotes and the validity of whoever is saying them but it is clear to the rest of that the authors who publish theses quotes in their works and sites are obviously trying to get the message across that Sidious is the most powerful sith lord ever (and there is quite a few of these) especially since no other sith has ever been called the most powerful sith lord ever not even once . Anyone can figure out the intentions of the authors. Why else would they say such things in their works or better yet if lucas( or a rep. or of lucas) had a problem with them they would not be printed in the material or would have been deemed non-canon.
Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Nebaris you can question the context of the quotes and the validity of whoever is saying them but it is clear to the rest of that the authors who publish theses quotes in their works and sites are obviously trying to get the message across that Sidious is the most powerful sith lord ever (and there is quite a few of these)
Simply saying that it's the obvious intent of the authors doesn't make it so. Given that:
a) The quotes in question have never had any bearing on the storyline, and
b) Leland Chee has confirmed that LFL are generally not concerned with the power levels of the fictional characters,
it can be concluded that nowhere near as much thought has been put into the quote for it to be determined that LFL are trying to send such a message.
especially since no other sith has ever been called the most powerful sith lord ever not even once .
That's because Sidious (with the exception of Vader, who was always intended to be less powerful than Sidious in every way, anyway) is the most heavily explored Sith there's ever been.
Anyone can figure out the intentions of the authors.
It truly breaks my heart that I'm not a part of "Anyone."
Why else would they say such things in their works
Firstly, authors alone are no where near significant enough for a possible intention behind their choices to be considered canon.
Secondly, no one's saying that they don't have a reason for adding such a piece of information in, but at the end of the day, barring the telepaths out there, we can't simply choose to believe that their ambiguous statements have a conclusive meaning behind them, especially when the authors go out of their way to put the statements in a context that make it more likely that they don't necessarily translate to sheer fighting power.
or better yet if lucas( or a rep. or of lucas) had a problem with them they would not be printed in the material or would have been deemed non-canon.
Lucas, by his own admission, hardly reads most of the material. From what I understand, all that he undeniably does is set certain rules for the authors, and have them run through the key plots of the stories by him. These statements, which as I said, have no real bearing on the storyline, are likely not even seen by the man.
Originally posted by E-Hotshot
Simply saying that it's the obvious intent of the authors doesn't make it so. Given that:a) The quotes in question have never had any bearing on the storyline, and
b) Leland Chee has confirmed that LFL are generally not concerned with the power levels of the fictional characters,
it can be concluded that nowhere near as much thought has been put into the quote for it to be determined that LFL are trying to send such a message.
That's because Sidious (with the exception of Vader, who was always intended to be less powerful than Sidious in every way, anyway) is the most heavily explored Sith there's ever been.
It truly breaks my heart that I'm not a part of "Anyone."
Firstly, authors alone are no where near significant enough for a possible intention behind their choices to be considered canon.
Secondly, no one's saying that they don't have a reason for adding such a piece of information in, but at the end of the day, barring the telepaths out there, we can't simply choose to believe that their ambiguous statements have a conclusive meaning behind them, especially when the authors go out of their way to put the statements in a context that make it more likely that they don't necessarily translate to sheer fighting power.
Lucas, by his own admission, hardly reads most of the material. From what I understand, all that he undeniably does is set certain rules for the authors, and have them run through the key plots of the stories by him. These statements, which as I said, have no real bearing on the storyline, are likely not even seen by the man.
Given that you've been wrong on every account in every post in every thread, everyone is wondering if you are mentally ill.
No, Sidious is officially stronger than Nihilus. Nihilus is only considered powerful because he has one special ability, an ability which Sidious also has. Palpatine mastered every Sith technique, dark side power, and lightsaber form, and we have conclusive evidence from many different sources saying he is the strongest.
I can see him being the most powerful in the sense that he is the most flawless and is a master strategist, able to manipulate entire galaxies and take over the entire Republic. However, while that makes him most powerful overall I could see 2 or 3 Sith possibly being more powerful in a fight. Like maybe Nihilus and probably Caedus, in a fight but not overall.
Originally posted by darthsith19
I can see him being the most powerful in the sense that he is the most flawless and is a master strategist, able to manipulate entire galaxies and take over the entire Republic. However, while that makes him most powerful overall I could see 2 or 3 Sith possibly being more powerful in a fight. Like maybe Nihilus and probably Caedus, in a fight but not overall.
Jacen is a poor excuse for terrible writing, trying to make Luke have some kind of competition. Anakin Solo was the strongest Solo.
Originally posted by darthsith19
I can see him being the most powerful in the sense that he is the most flawless and is a master strategist, able to manipulate entire galaxies and take over the entire Republic. However, while that makes him most powerful overall I could see 2 or 3 Sith possibly being more powerful in a fight. Like maybe Nihilus and probably Caedus, in a fight but not overall.
Perhaps the rest of us would take this assertion seriously if you would be so kind as to provide evidence on behalf of it, as no other Dark Lord of the Sith -- including Darths Nihilus and Caedus -- have demonstrated the combat prowess of Darth Sidious.