Originally posted by zephiel7
Just a question. Why would DE be considered less canon than TOTJ? Is there a specific reason that I am missing out on?Anyways I was arguing NEC places Sids on top, even above Ragnos. There are obscurities, and to possibly suggest the idea that Palps can best Marka is absolutely ridiculous. But Canon seems to agree with this view.
One possible explanation is that the quote "Sidious is the strongest dark lord of the sith" refers to Lucas' own works. Last time I checked, Lucas did not create the ancient Sith, so Sidious is not necessarily the strongest compared to them.
I believe there was a quote illustrating Lucas' disconnection with much of the EU.
Here are two
I really don't see how a compilation book can totally retcon an earlier piece of work's claims (TOTJ), but TOTJ can't retcon DE's claims. That seems to be a serious inconsistancy in Lightsnake's stance. Source material > compilation/reference material every time. Him saying "OMFg Leland Chee sez" doesn't change a thing because Leland Chee hasn't taken an official stance on it. He didn't create the book, and his title is "Keeper of the Archives"; he determines what is canon or not, but he doesn't create canon out of thin air. If they intend to include GAotS in the timeline (Which they did a very sloppy job of doing- Ragnos doesn't even have an entry) and DE, it makes no sense to champion DE's claims over TOTJ's., especially since DE's claims were made in ignorance of the existance of TOTJ (Two years before).
Also, the majority of his claims ride on this one line, and anything else he fails to provide evidence for or his argues to death any counter evidence. In short, he has no case. Just bias.
From : <[email protected]>
Sent : Thursday, April 20, 2006 12:42 PM
To : [email protected]
Subject : Re: Reply from your Star Wars Blog
| | | Inbox
In a message dated 4/20/2006 12:51:12 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [email protected] writes:
On page 84 of New Essential Chronology you said that Darth Sidious was the most powerful Sith Lord in history is this to be taken as canon truth?
re. While I hate to draw lines in the sand (you never know when that line may need to be shifted later), I'd have to say that if Sidious wasn't the most powerful Sith lord in history, who was? Nobody else in the history of the Republic ever came close to accomplishing what he did, and he was basically just one guy. Plus he kicked Yoda's butt in one-on-one combat, and Yoda would undoubtedly be one of the greatest Jedi Masters in history.
Best,
Dan
Well that pretty much confirms it. This is Dan Wallace the author of the book. He was given official stance by LFL to say the things he does in this book such as Revan being Lightside and the start of the Sith Empire. So as of now as he states the canon is Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord. Also Im working on getting a reply from Lee Land Chee.
If they intend to include GAotS in the timeline (Which they did a very sloppy job of doing- Ragnos doesn't even have an entry) and DE, it makes no sense to champion DE's claims over TOTJ's., especially since DE's claims were made in ignorance of the existance of TOTJ (Two years before). - Janus Marius
How would they make an article about Ragnos? An article being more then a paragraph long. Known info we have on him...Ruled with an Iron Fist...for a century...fought Simus...Stops duels between Naga Sadow and Kreesh and duels between Kun and Ulic. Thats about it. We have largly no information about the guy we have more info on Revan then we do Ragnos.
Deception
Ancient Dark Lord
Gender: Male
Location: Somewhere unknown
Because DE specifically contradicts the prophecy of Anakin destroying the Sith, not inclusive of Dark Jedi, Sidious was indeed the last Dark Lord of the Sith and he was defeated in ROTJ, meaning the prophecy had been fullfilled.
However DE contradicts this entirely, by bringing back Sidious it specifically means that the Prophecy was wrong and Anakin did not and will not destroy the Sith.
Keeper of the Holocron's Blog
by: Tasty Taste
date posted: Jan 19, 2006 3:02 PM | updated: Feb 23, 2006 1:35 PM
Palpatine (clone) [Dark Empire comics]
Palpatine's clone dies, his life force enters another clone body, that clone body is killed, and another clone emerges. When that final clone entity attempts to possess the body of the newly born Anakin Solo, it is intercepted by the dying Empatojayos Brand, thus snuffing out the Emperor's will once and for all.
I would post a link but Im not well known enough yet to do so(god thats dumb)
Originally posted by AcStylesVer01
From : <[email protected]>
Sent : Thursday, April 20, 2006 12:42 PM
To : [email protected]
Subject : Re: Reply from your Star Wars Blog| | | Inbox
In a message dated 4/20/2006 12:51:12 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [email protected] writes:
On page 84 of New Essential Chronology you said that Darth Sidious was the most powerful Sith Lord in history is this to be taken as canon truth?re. While I hate to draw lines in the sand (you never know when that line may need to be shifted later), I'd have to say that if Sidious wasn't the most powerful Sith lord in history, who was? Nobody else in the history of the Republic ever came close to accomplishing what he did, and he was basically just one guy. Plus he kicked Yoda's butt in one-on-one combat, and Yoda would undoubtedly be one of the greatest Jedi Masters in history.
Best,
DanWell that pretty much confirms it. This is Dan Wallace the author of the book. He was given official stance by LFL to say the things he does in this book such as Revan being Lightside and the start of the Sith Empire. So as of now as he states the canon is Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord. Also Im working on getting a reply from Lee Land Chee.
Oh yes... This is official. It couldn't be BS or anything.
And if Sidious is the "Most powerful Sith Lord in history" based on his feat of usurping the rule of the empire, that's not a personal level of power- that's a political one. By this logic, Adolf Hitler was more powerful than Sparticus, even though the latter would wipe his ass with Hitler in personal combat.
And I really don't see how Yoda being "one of the greatest" jedi reflects on his personal power. Yes, Yoda was good. But he wasn't leagues above any other jedi in the Order, and he certainly wasn't powerful enough to contend with people like Kun and Sadow, much less Ragnos. If Dan Wallace has the absolute authority to throw around hyperbole and retcon established EU history and material in an e-mail, I seriously have to question the source.
Leland Chee and Dan Wallace aren't on the credits to Golden Age of the Sith Empire, either.
Originally posted by Traya
Erm, "a God amongst Gods"?
Quote's a lie. Never once mention in...anything.
Also, the chronology does have the ability to retcon and change. I present for evidence, the Sith Empire
Prior to this, from the TotJ sourcebook, it was stated the Sith empire existed for 25,000 years...now, instead of this, it exists for 2000 years and Leland Chee is on record supporting that at SW.com
The chronology also confirmed completely that Revan was lightside.
And a LOT of EU contradicts the movies, TOTJ, too. And the NEC places Palp as the strongest during the PT, DE not apply. Dark Horse has no intention of declaring TOTJ or DE infinities according to Randy Stradley, though.
And the chronology covers the EU, as well. It goes over the Ancient Sith empire and lists how it was formed, from the Hundred Years darkness to the Great Hyperspace war.
Once more, this isn't a compilation book, it's a written account of Star Wars's history and is fully official and HAS retconned earlier sources, TOTJ included. Empire's End, which came out after TOTJ put Palpatine on his plateau as well.
And you think something that grievous in error would be allowed to make it into publication, let alone for, HOW many months? Six? They've retconned thigns much, much sooner than that to wrong info. And hell, KJA helped to write the last Chronology, along with Dan Wallace.
Now, Janus, we're gonna have to prove those Yoda comments. He WAS leagues above anyone else in the Order and described as the strongest foe the darkness had ever known.
Did you even read Dark Empire, Janus? You know what Sidious has done there? He's destroyed ships, with what has since been described-in 2005 stuff- as the single greatest use of dark side power in history, a 'living embodiment of the darkside' who's final defeat crippled the Dark Side itself. He and Luke were described as battling divinities, Palpatine razed worlds with force power alone and drained the lives of millions, froze and erased the memories of...trillions at most on Coruscant to bury Lusankya.
As opposed to Ragnos now, you claim my argument has no water but bias, what of THAT? What's the support for Ragnos and his ilk but what you could easily describe as hyperbole if it were used against you? Simus was killed by a blaster shot when the shooter raised a gun in his direction, that says quite a bit. Numerous Sith lords were killed by Massassi.
You don't have to write the book to retcon it, there are company decisions that effect things. If Wizards of the Coast or Del Ray decide they want something different-and they have in the past, like Arden Lyn- then it goes, and an individual author's work be damned. That's what writing a chain in book franchises is: economics and if the company makes a choice, it goes. If they want to declare Dark Empire Infinities, it'd happen. Hell, KOTOR retconned some of TOTJ itself.
Quite frankly, Dan is also official with the backing of LFL, too.
I really don't see how a compilation book can totally retcon an earlier piece of work's claims (TOTJ), but TOTJ can't retcon DE's claims. That seems to be a serious inconsistancy in Lightsnake's stance.
I guess you can look at it any of these two ways:
1) DE makes the claim. No contradicting earlier source material, therefore TOTJ and NEC are "wrong"
2) DE makes the claim. Newer sources contradict older ones. TOTJ contradicts DE. NEC contradicts TOTJ.
I also once heard that Lucas says Sidious is the strongest Sith Lord ever in the TPM Audio Commentary. Can anyone confirm?
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Antediluvian, did you even read the link?An Revolver: Empire's End also goes against TOTJ's supposed stance (Honestly, TOTJ never once claims anything on the subject of power.)
I didn't need to. Actually, I didn't need to read a single thing in this thread except for the TITLE of the thread.
You're back again to spout off how powerful Sidious is. Take a walk, Fanboy. You're going to get put down.
What if I say I have a link to the page of the book proving it?
http://img384.imageshack.us/my.php?image=proof9gs.jpg
The upper right, not far from the top
Originally posted by Lightsnake
What if I say I have a link to the page of the book proving it?http://img384.imageshack.us/my.php?image=proof9gs.jpg
The upper right, not far from the top
That's funny, because that Sith Lord couldn't manage to defeat a handful of Rebels and a Jedi with around three years of experience.
Nor could he conquer his mechanical apprentice from chucking him in a shaft.
We've seen the Comics display Sith Lords that have shown more impressive powers and features than Palpatine so how do you come up with this repulsive bullshit that he's the deity of the Sith?
That source is official, you are not. And was Palpatine ever taking the Rebels seriously? Were the Rebels ever really beating the Empire hands down? Palp himself said they just amused him, even after the Death Star. And let's not forget Vader surprised him when he was focused totally on hurting Luke and was fated to kill him...
And what powers have shown these Sith Lords? I recall Palpatine razing worlds and destroying fleets on his own without 'weapons on ships' like Naga Sadow's star destruction. And maybe, just maybe, you should read the link? Calls him the most powerful Sith Lord...ever. DE and Empire's end and really everything with him support this fact. And let's turn this around:
The Ancients were beaten on three worlds, killed by their own slaves, couldn't deflect blaster beams...
Well my friend, that's a direct, in continuity source, backed by the comics and books themselves. Would you like me to type it out?
Yoda was unable to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history."
Now, seriously, I'm still curious where the godliness of Kun and the Ancients come from. Kun froze a senate, great....we know Palpatine froze a world from the X wing novels while his men buried the Lusankya. Then he wiped almost everyone's mind over it
Originally posted by Lightsnake
That source is official, you are not. And was Palpatine ever taking the Rebels seriously? Were the Rebels ever really beating the Empire hands down? Palp himself said they just amused him, even after the Death Star. And let's not forget Vader surprised him when he was focused totally on hurting Luke and was fated to kill him...And what powers have shown these Sith Lords? I recall Palpatine razing worlds and destroying fleets on his own without 'weapons on ships' like Naga Sadow's star destruction. And maybe, just maybe, you should read the link? Calls him the most powerful Sith Lord...ever. DE and Empire's end and really everything with him support this fact. And let's turn this around:
The Ancients were beaten on three worlds, killed by their own slaves, couldn't deflect blaster beams...
The Rebels defeated the Empire hands down in ROTJ.
Yeah, well your most powerful Sith Lord ever couldn't even sense that his Apprentice had feelings for his son when he was less that a foot away from him. Sidious was a moron.
Sidious was killed by his own slave. Just one. And Sidious can deflect a blaster beam? Actually, he couldn't block a bolt. He was shot by Han Solo.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
That source is official, you are not. And was Palpatine ever taking the Rebels seriously? Were the Rebels ever really beating the Empire hands down? Palp himself said they just amused him, even after the Death Star. And let's not forget Vader surprised him when he was focused totally on hurting Luke and was fated to kill him...And what powers have shown these Sith Lords? I recall Palpatine razing worlds and destroying fleets on his own without 'weapons on ships' like Naga Sadow's star destruction. And maybe, just maybe, you should read the link? Calls him the most powerful Sith Lord...ever. DE and Empire's end and really everything with him support this fact. And let's turn this around:
The Ancients were beaten on three worlds, killed by their own slaves, couldn't deflect blaster beams...
Well my friend, that's a direct, in continuity source, backed by the comics and books themselves. Would you like me to type it out?
Yoda was unable to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history."
Now, seriously, I'm still curious where the godliness of Kun and the Ancients come from. Kun froze a senate, great....we know Palpatine froze a world from the X wing novels while his men buried the Lusankya. Then he wiped almost everyone's mind over it
Better re-reply to your edit . . .
Mace was apparently on par with Yoda and he managed to conquer the most powerful Sith Lord in history. He also deflected his so called Uber Lightning and the only way Palpatine could survive was to lure his Apprentice to help him strive.
It wasn't 'hands down', there were....twenty more years worth of conflict?
And Palpatine's overconfidence is his weakness, it's as simple as that, same with any Sith Lord. you argue that was his error, you better point fingers at Kun, Kressh, Sadow, Nadd and most every other Sith ever. See, he was focused on something and considering the CHOSEN ONE, after two decades of being his dog decided to rebel when he saw his SON in danger-Palpatine can't understand love, one of the flaws of the Sith- chucked him down...which, y'know, if you take the EU, wasn't really a permanent condition. In the comics and the books, the empire persisted for ages, under Isard, Daala, Reborn Palp and Pellaeon.
And did you even read Empire's End? He allowed himself to be shot to possess anakin Solo.
Once more, this is official, YOU ARE NOT. DIRECT QUOTE: "Most powerful Sith Lord in history."
Jonathan, in Fall of the Sith Empire, we see it how it really happens-Sadow isn't human, for one-...Sadow's ship uses a weapon powered by the force that removes the core of a star, causing it to go nova. It's ancient Sith technology-by ancient, I mean developed at almost the dawn of the empire. The comics even state the weapon on Sadow's ship destroyed the star...Sadow never used it to the limit Aleema did, because unlike Aleema, Sadow understood the massive repercussions
