And from the Holocron:
C-canon is primarily comprised of elements from the Expanded Universe including books, comics, and games bearing the label of Star Wars. Games and RPG sourcebooks are a special case; the stories and general background information are themselves fully C-canon, but the other elements such as character/item statistics and gameplay are, with few exceptions, N-canon.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
It wasn't 'hands down', there were....twenty more years worth of conflict?And Palpatine's overconfidence is his weakness, it's as simple as that, same with any Sith Lord. you argue that was his error, you better point fingers at Kun, Kressh, Sadow, Nadd and most every other Sith ever. See, he was focused on something and considering the CHOSEN ONE, after two decades of being his dog decided to rebel when he saw his SON in danger-Palpatine can't understand love, one of the flaws of the Sith- chucked him down...which, y'know, if you take the EU, wasn't really a permanent condition. In the comics and the books, the empire persisted for ages, under Isard, Daala, Reborn Palp and Pellaeon.
And did you even read Empire's End? He allowed himself to be shot to possess anakin Solo.
Once more, this is official, YOU ARE NOT. DIRECT QUOTE: "Most powerful Sith Lord in history."
They can't sense love? Is there source for that? Any proof against that? Because Vader is proof that Sith can sense Love. You're wrong again.
Maybe the others took over the Empire because Sidious couldn't do the job correctly. Actually, he couldn't. Seeing as when he ran the Empire, it fell terribly under a handful of REBELS.
Is it official? So, where is it said that this an official source? Is there proof? I ain't seeing it, Lightsnake.
And no, Sidious leaped for the baby and was shot from behind. He didn't let Han shoot him.
I said they can't understand love. And Vader never completely embraced the Dark Side, it's why he's a tragic, fallen hero.
And Good God! It's the ESSENTIAL CHRONOLOGY, see that mark on the front? That's LFL's logo!
And Palpatine said "It is time to enter the child as I promised." He allowed Han to shoot him to escape his already dying body....and Palpatine was incapacitated after Endor when others took command...when he came back, the New Republic became the Rebellion again and lost most of its strength. They only lost at Endor because he died and they didn't have his battle meditation. Confirmed in Thrawn Trilogy
And:
C-canon is primarily comprised of elements from the Expanded Universe including books, comics, and games bearing the label of Star Wars. Games and RPG sourcebooks are a special case; the stories and general background information are themselves fully C-canon, but the other elements such as character/item statistics and gameplay are, with few exceptions, N-canon.
And come on, Sorgo and Janus...you guys are smarter than this. I provide the link to the source with the quote? You argue it, fine...I provide a posting of the levels of canon showing all books except thsoe marked as infinities and RPG sourcebook story plus background info are canon, you argue it, I can understand that...I post a link proving my points from Sansweet and Sue Rostini...you don't argue it. You try cheap insults. It's done, you cannot argue this any more. Q. E. Freaking D.
While I'm at it: http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWCanonquotes.html#2003-Rostoni-BeforeContinuity
Originally posted by Lightsnake
And come on, Sorgo and Janus...you guys are smarter than this. I provide the link to the source with the quote? You argue it, fine...I provide a posting of the levels of canon showing all books except thsoe marked as infinities and RPG sourcebook story plus background info are canon, you argue it, I can understand that...I post a link proving my points from Sansweet and Sue Rostini...you don't argue it. You try cheap insults. It's done, you cannot argue this any more. Q. E. Freaking D.While I'm at it: http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWCanonquotes.html#2003-Rostoni-BeforeContinuity
RPG sourcebooks are not canon, nor do I see guidebooks on the C-Canon. Guidebooks sort canon, they do not create canon.
Also, as far as that one line of proof that you've apparently come out of hibernation to try to show people up with, it doesn't establish anything. In Dan Wallace's information, when asked if he is the most powerful Sith Lord, he says yes and cites because "he conquered the Republic."
He sure as hell didn't singlehandedly walk around and conquer the republic. No one is arguing that Sidious didn't achieve the most out of all the Sith Lords, or that he isn't the most powerful (politically), but that line is clearly open to interpretation. George Wallace never clarified Darth Sidious as being the most personally power, or most powerful in the force, or most powerful in lightsaber combat. He was the leader of the most powerful Galatic Force the Galaxy ever saw, so yes, I would say he was the "strongest" Sith Lord in history.
You can not take an interpretive line in a guidebook (one that does not attempt to establish canon) as your only knowledge.
Your interpretation does not trump the interpretation of other individuals. The fact of the matter is that the on-panel evidence does not make it conclusive, and George Wallace's answer only makes it more ambiguous what he actually means.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Jonathan, in Fall of the Sith Empire, we see it how it really happens-Sadow isn't human, for one-...Sadow's ship uses a weapon powered by the force that removes the core of a star, causing it to go nova. It's ancient Sith technology-by ancient, I mean developed at almost the dawn of the empire. The comics even state the weapon on Sadow's ship destroyed the star...Sadow never used it to the limit Aleema did, because unlike Aleema, Sadow understood the massive repercussions
That's a crock. Fall of the Sith Empire does not make any reference to Naga Sadow needing the technology. In The Sith War, Aleema uses the ship to "rip cores."
But the technique in question did not "rip cores" from any stars.
In Fall of the Sith Empire, Sadow shot something that looked like giant scale force lightning into a Red Giant, causing it to go nova. He also manipulated the solar flares of another. Nowhere in Fall of the Sith Empire is he referenced as "ripping cores."
In fact, since it was by the same author and since it was published AFTER Dark Lords of the Sith and The Sith War, it makes it seem more than likely that Sadow had more than a few abilities that were never clarified as using his ship. In short, it's speculative.
No, he doesn't only cite that. Illustrious, for the- I just showed a link and posted the section showing and proving RPG sourcebook story info is C canon. And that's invalid because THIS IS NOT AN RPG SOURCEBOOK. It's not a guidebook either, it's an omniscient narrarator telling us about the history of Star Wars and unless you have anything shooting it down or proving RPG sourcebooks aren't canon...especially when DE calls him the strongest. Especially when I provided a quote showing games and sorucebooks' story info and background info are part of the story. Dan is also a close friend and co-writer with KJA, so he knows what he's talking about. Regardless, why is he more fanboyish than KJA who can suddenly be untouchable when parts of his stuff HAVE been overwritten and Leland himself used info in this guide?
This guide is official and I've proved it. Sufficiently.
And oh, yes:
The Sith War: Kun says it was the wweapon on Sadow's ship. Chronology, wRITTEN BY KJA: It was the weapon, Fall of the Sith Empire: Sadow says he'll 'make use of the remainder of the ship's power'
And Empire's End was published after Golden Age of the Sith, one, and two: Sadow is not shown shooting lightning, his ship is....hell, we just see him leering at Gav at the point before his ship fires. In the next one we see lightning crackling around him and then the stars exploding...and the weapon causes a chain reaction, sending the stars nova.
No, he doesn't only cite that. Illustrious, for the- I just showed a link and posted the section showing and proving RPG sourcebook story info is C canon. And that's invalid because THIS IS NOT AN RPG SOURCEBOOK.
No you didn't establish that. The link you gave would mean game stats are canon, because the games have the Star Wars logo.
Take the official release from SW.com:
C-canon is primarily comprised of elements from the Expanded Universe including books, comics, and games bearing the label of Star Wars. Games and RPG sourcebooks are a special case; the stories and general background information are themselves fully C-canon, but the other elements such as character/item statistics and gameplay are, with few exceptions, N-canon.
Nowhere does it reference a guide.
It's not a guidebook either, it's an omniscient narrarator telling us about the history of Star Wars and unless you have anything shooting it down or proving RPG sourcebooks aren't canon...
It's the New Essential Guide to Chronology. It does not attempt to CREATE canon, it attempts to sort canon, Lucas himself has made a reference to this in passing.
Especially when I provided a quote showing games and sorucebooks' story info and background info are part of the story. Dan is also a close friend and co-writer with KJA, so he knows what he's talking about. Regardless, why is he more fanboyish than KJA who can suddenly be untouchable when parts of his stuff HAVE been overwritten and Leland himself used info in this guide?
I didn't say nothing from KJA could be overwritten.
I did say that the line is not substantiated. Dan Wallace himself cites the reason that he "conquered the republic" as one of the reasons for him being the "strongest." If anything, this seems to imply that he is comparing their relative power. Like mentioned, Hitler was "stronger" than Sparticus, it does not mean he would beat him in a fight.
The line is inherently ambiguous and does not establish anything. It is open to interpretation.
You can not tell me that your interpretation is superior to the interpretation of other fans, especially since the line by its nature lends itself to that.
The Sith War: Kun says it was the wweapon on Sadow's ship. Chronology, wRITTEN BY KJA: It was the weapon, Fall of the Sith Empire: Sadow says he'll 'make use of the remainder of the ship's power'
No, he brags about the power of the dark side right as the lightning surges into the star and causes it to go nova. That line is not associated with that picture.
Same link I gave said SPECIFICALLY that game stats and gameplay are noncanon
And don't try to get out of this, C Canon-and I posted a link to this too- Consists of EVERYTHING ELSE in the EU, and the RPG sourcebooks call Palpatine the strongest ever, so either way...
And Dan Wallace's personal reasons are of no issue, even though conquering the Republic isn't the only thing. Is my interpretation more significant? No. Does it have direct evidence and continuity, with direct quotes backing it up.
And Sadow simply says the power of the Sith and considering KJA himself wrote what identified the star destroyer as a 'weapon on the ship'...And that line I mentioned is when he destroys the Denarii
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Same link I gave said SPECIFICALLY that game stats and gameplay are noncanonAnd don't try to get out of this, C Canon-and I posted a link to this too- Consists of EVERYTHING ELSE in the EU, and the RPG sourcebooks call Palpatine the strongest ever, so either way...
And Dan Wallace's personal reasons are of no issue, even though conquering the Republic isn't the only thing. Is my interpretation more significant? No. Does it have direct evidence and continuity, with direct quotes backing it up.
And Sadow simply says the power of the Sith and considering KJA himself wrote what identified the star destroyer as a 'weapon on the ship'...And that line I mentioned is when he destroys the Denarii
Really? We see Sue Rostoni telling us that anything without an Infinities label is canon, and we see Leland Chee saying the following:
"”Lucasfilm canon” refers to anything produced by any of the Lucas companies, whether it be movies, books, games, or internet. ”Movie canon” is only that which you see and hear in the Star Wars films."- Leland Chee, LLP continuity database admin, May 30, 2003 - StarWars.com forum post
Which specific quote says game stats aren't canon? This one, right?
C-canon is primarily comprised of elements from the Expanded Universe including books, comics, and games bearing the label of Star Wars. Games and RPG sourcebooks are a special case; the stories and general background information are themselves fully C-canon, but the other elements such as character/item statistics and gameplay are, with few exceptions, N-canon.
Nowhere in that does it reference a guide.
Dan Wallace's personal reasons are of no issue? WTF? He was asked what "he" said should be taken as canon. Ergo, he was asked if the words that he used, as the "narrator" of the book, should canon truth.
He replied with an answer involving the following: Nobody else in the history of the Republic ever came close to accomplishing what he did, and he was basically just one guy.
Well yes, the Ancient Sith Empire was hardly referenced, Ragnos hardly exists in the chronology, and they were NEVER PART OF THE REPUBLIC.
Also, the line says he "accomplished" the most. It does not say he would beat every other Sith Lord in history, the line is open to interpretation and even he did not make it conclusive when asked about it.
That's the point, you can argue out of your ass that "Sidious is the greatest," the only problem is that your interpretation does not trump the interpretation of others. The versus forum attempts to sort out who would in a fight, not who would be considered the most powerful because of their personal accomplishments.
Look, I actually agree with you. I feel Sidious was the Greatest and some ways the strongest, but not the most powerful and not the one that would beat every other Sith Lord in a fight. Nor is said canon elaborating on that point.
Rostini commentary was rather before the Holocron was formed. And that's why there were levels of canon formed, it's all canon: Just some is N-canon, some is S canon, etc.
And specific quote:
C-canon is primarily comprised of elements from the Expanded Universe including books, comics, and games bearing the label of Star Wars. Games and RPG sourcebooks are a special case; the stories and general background information are themselves fully C-canon, but the other elements such as character/item statistics and gameplay are, with few exceptions, N-canon.
And guides are books, the chronology is a book. And once more, the DE SB states 'Strongest of all time.'
Dan Wallace's statement were taken as canon...six months and no retcons in sight, no uproar...until it gets retconned, it's continuity. And did Ragnos or his ilk factor into the history of the Republic or not? Still 'most. Powerful. In. History.' The semantics can't be argued. I've shown the quote in the book, with the omniscient narrarator. Everything in that book was approved by LFL
And the DE sourcebook still says Palpatine was the strongest of all time...and him wiping out a fleet with just himself, described as the greatest usage of Dark Side power backs it up. I'm getting so tired of his power being dismissed for people who are much vaguer. So what if Ragnos wasn't touched upon? Maybe because noone will let the authors do anything else with him for the moment? So what if they were skimmed over, Palpatine factored more into galactic history than the hyperspace war ever did. I'm tired of ragnos's power being touted, I'm tired of Palpatine "I destroy fleets, know all aspects of the dark side, am described as a divinity and the dark side embodied and raze planets with the force alone." be so downplayed when I can actually show something OFFICIAL proving it. A book, an official book that is in C-canon and rewrote former points from earlier stories. When Dark Empire declares him the most powerful and Empire's end as well. And it's blatant hypocrisy that somehow TOTJ's sourcebook can be used. I just provided the quote on the holocron, by the way
Just adding to what illustrious is saying, Ragnos' scepter, a weapon of immense power in the darkside in the hands of a relative weakling like Tavion, was capable of draining planets. In the hands of Ragnos (a weapon that Ragnos himself imbued with the darkside) would be able to create far more havoc.
Not to mention that Luke himself said that it would require the entire academy plus himself to even have the chance of stopping Ragnos should he ever return in full form and strength.
From what I have seen, Sidious has both the feats and official quotes in his favour.
Good for you, fanboy...
The point is that a weakling like Tavion, was capable of using the scepter to drain planets. A force BRUTE like Ragnos would be able to cause FAR more devastation than little old Palps could.
Don't get me wrong, I like Palps as a villain, but in terms of brute force strength, he could not stand against Ragnos.
So? A sith artifact is just a tool and Ragnos was showing her how to use it. And Palpatine razed worlds with just the force and was stated to be the most powerful Sith of all time. He knew everything the Ancients did, too.
Stop saying Palpatine d'doesn't compare to Ragnos' when you've got no idea if Ragnos was as strong as he's hyped up to be. All you have is hearsay and assumption. Seriously, how can people keep arguing this after what I provided? I showed the offical links and proof that they counted
Others have provided the necessary proof.
Sadow was capable of great feats, such as causing a star to go supernova. He was also of true Sith species, which in turn fuels his power in the darkside. If you look at TOTJ, Sadow states that he will use the power of the darkside, and with that his two amulets start glowing and the Star suddenly explodes and takes down/blocks Republic ships following him. Kressh was described by omniscient narrator as being his near equal. If the two of them were afraid to take on Ragnos and obtain the coveted positions of Sith Lord, it speaks volumes about Ragnos' strength.
The knowledge that Palpatine acquired was diluted at best. Observe in the movies how the only power he demonstrates is force lightning. Also observe how he was stalemated by two Jedi who were UNPREPARED for Sith, and were UNTRAINED to deal with a dark Jedi. Palpatine himself had time to study the Jedi, yet this knowledge was still not enough. He was beaten once, and stalemated the other time.
His feats in DE were considerably greater, however it still did not stop his inevitable defeat. Luke and Leia, who still have not reached their highest potential in the slightest, were able to use Illumination to reflect Palpatine's storm right back him. Afterwards he was "killed" by a blaster bolt aimed by Han.
No, they haven't, because an official statement says otherwise.
For the final time, KJA HIMSELF WROTE THAT SADOW'S SHIP CAUSED THE SUPER NOVA. And they weren't 'afraid'...Sadow lacked the political support and KRessh loved Ragnos. His devotion, even in Ragnos's death was startling.
And no, it's DIRECTLY STATED Palpatine had complete knowledge of every technique and power of the Sith and Jedi.
And by the way, learn your damn facts: Sidious let himself be shot to escape his body and possess Anakin Solo but was intercepted by a dying Jedi where every Jedi who ever lived held him into the Dark Side forever. And you know someything else? I've posted things from DE showing how he was beaten...Luke and Leia channeled the ENTIRE force to defeat Palpatine, ALL of it, they became living embodiments and instead of fighting Palp, they protected him, shielding him from the dark and without the dark he couldn't use his force storm. And don't give me 'They were untrained to deal with Dark Jedi' Revan and Ragnos's era Jedi weren't either. In fact, The Jedi had just destroyed the Sith a millenia ago and Yoda was confirmed to have fought with Bane's order...both Mace and Yoda had faced Dark Jedi and killed them before and Yoda was described as the strongest Jedi the order had known to that point