Because, frankly, those of you trying to argue the definition of 'powerful' are being incredibly pedantic. Anyone with an ounce of common sense knows that when someone is defined as 'the most powerful Sith Lord in history', they mean POWERFUL. Don't mess around saying they mean the wrong sort of power, it is VERY clear what is meant. Your tactics are those of extreme desperation, and your accusations of fanboyism look very hypocritical in lieu of that.
I fail to see how this assessment is accurate at all.
Dan Wallace uses Sidious' accomplishments as justification of him being the strongest Sith Lord. Can we say definitively he is physically the strongest? No. So how can we make a blanket assumption that he is the strongest in history? Is Sidious' primary accomplishments, such as taking over the Republic and ending the Jedi Order, personally executed? No. Could he personally go about and do it without help? Again, unlikely.
What I feel is ridiculous is that people are apparently attempting to apply this in a versus forum context. Nowhere does LFL attempt to create a pecking order based upon who would beat the other guy in a fight. LFL only attempts to establish a chronology detailing major events. Fights are merely corrollary.
Anomaly's question is the cogent one. Are the sources good for what LS thinks they are or not? If they are, then he is right, and all of that crap about super powers in the earlier works are simply wrong- made up stories sourced from very over-active imaginations.Not that I know why people try to defend them anyway. All those stories about Sith with godlike powers were shit- lazy power inflation on the part of the authors. Same problem with that they did with Luke in NJO. In their defence, though,. I would point out they are comic books, and hence things in them are exaggerated, as they were in the Clone Wars cartoons. Some of these things are, therefore, not to be taken literally as they would be on screen.
The NJO series was in paperback, is that an exaggeration? Some PT era novels show feats that were never close to being duplicated in the movies, is that exaggeration?
If the comics and cartoons are exaggerated, then so too are the books. Then you have to factor in that the EU is an alternate universe altogether.
Not to mention how utterly, utterly silly this 'bastard swords are better than lightsabres because they are heavier' thing is. Cretinous nonsense. And if you are going to try and claim that Sidious is inferior because he doesn't have the physique as some previous Sith Lords, then I have to question whether you actually ever watched Star Wars at all, that being such a huge own goal in power logic in SW.
It's cretinous nonsense to assume that such a difference would have no effect. Trying to block a great sword with a rapier is stupidity at best. The fact of the matter is that Sidious has not demonstrated the premise for being able to generate the power necessary to repulse a bastard sword as compared to a lightsaber.
To assume that all weapons have no difference is even worse than to make the logically plausible and physically true argument that they do.
Exactly, I think it is made pretty clear in the quote that it is raw combat power. Isn't the quote something along the lines of "Yoda could not defeat the most powerful Sith ever."? It would be plain silly to be talking about how Yoda could not defeat Sidious because of his great political power. Ever encompasses everything (or at least up to that time, yup, that includes the Ancients like Ragnos).
No it doesn't. To argue as much would be a flaw in reading comprehension. You're attempting to say that "most powerful Sith in History" is causative. It could just as easily be saying "Yoda could not defeat the most dominant chancellor," but the line "most dominant chancellor" does not mean that it was the cause of Yoda's defeat.
It's a modifier for the original antecedent, it does not necessarily mean that Sidious would own everyone and their mother in a fight.
If it does, tell me what does "strongest" mean? Physically strongest? Strongest in the force? Strongest in the lightsaber? Strongest in a farting contest?
Again, you're reading it in an inaccurate context. Nowhere in Lucasfilm, Lucasarts, Lucaswhatever does it state that they are expected to, or have any intention to, sort out a pecking order for a versus forum involving Star Wars characters. Nowhere does it attempt to file out which individual is superior to another individual in combat. The single line from a guide (which never attempted to create canon in the first place), does not change this fact.
Honestly, tell me how "accomplishments" can be used to substantiate someone being the "strongest"? Unless Sidious personally went around and axed the entire Jedi Order, I fail to see the correlation, and this is straight from the horse's mouth.
When you're arguing about 'power' when you don't do so with Ragnos's vague quote...that's incredibly pedantic. And Dan also listed him beating Yoda as something...regardless of what he thought, it was approved by LFL. When you call someone the most powerful, you don't refer to their debating skills. You can take a quote of Ragnos as 'most powerful' but Sidious is somehow given special consideration when the author clarified he meant his strength?
Originally posted by Lightsnake
When you're arguing about 'power' when you don't do so with Ragnos's vague quote...that's incredibly pedantic. And Dan also listed him beating Yoda as something...regardless of what he thought, it was approved by LFL. When you call someone the most powerful, you don't refer to their debating skills. You can take a quote of Ragnos as 'most powerful' but Sidious is somehow given special consideration when the author clarified he meant his strength?
I never said Ragnos' one line is all the justification I needed. I said that one line puts him above his contemporaries, which have shown the on-panel evidence that puts them above most everyone else.
You still didn't answer the question. You're still just adding more black-and-white interpretation. Tell me where the LFL has stated they want to create a pecking order for fights? Tell me where they have listed the guy that would win in a SW tournament?
Dan listing him as being Yoda is because he DID beat Yoda in the movies, he has no authority to overwrite that or anything else. He compiles the chronology into a guide.
Most powerful can absolutely refer to someone's political power. I've read in a book that Stalin was the "most powerful man in Russia." Does that mean he would whoop everyone and their mother in a fight?
Again, you're attempting to place an interpretive answer and say your interpretation is the only correct one.
Illustrious, I posted a direct link to the SW official site saying the NEC would give new information, never seen before.
And no, most powerful of all time isn't in reference to 'political' power when it describes a combat scenario. I'll ask Dan if he meant one or the other and scan the email. One more, Dan's stuff isn't the only stuff backing this up, there's plenty else
Greatest display? I think not, the strength of the Illusions that Sadow created over a scale of 3 planets is a much more impressive feat, than Sidious destroying fleets in a much more smaller scale.
How? Sidious launched his Force Storm around his flagship, it was definitely in a smaller scale than Sadow's Illusions. Now the common argument is Sidious produced the Force Storm in 5 seconds, and Sadow produced his in a meditation chamber :
1) Sadow produced them to a greater scale of the length and breadth of a few planets.
2) Sidious needed to maintain control of his Force Storm, once he loses control, it consumes even himself.
3) Obviously had Sadow created Ilusions to the scale of Sidious's Force Storm it would require much less concentration and power, consider he did not require the meditation chamber to launch his attack, he required it to launch a more effective and powerful illusion.
No one doubts Sidious's power, but most of us doubts him being ranked No.1 of all time.
Lightsnake another question : Would you rate DN Luke above or below DE Sidious?
"That "Anyone" with an ounce of common sense is infact limited to you, Numan, Lightsnake and likely a few other members within this forum,"
No. It is, in fact, the view of anyone with common sense, as I say. Only those of you now on a back foot and using desperate and silly methods to defend your position believe as you do.
---
"LMAO, Ushgarak! You and Lightsnake are related! You both scuttle off quietly after getting pwned and then come back for more!"
In your dreams.
Furthermore, that was an entirely useless and non-constructive post.
I don't want to see those any more. There is far too much petty and pointless bickering here. Continue to make posts which only attack others and do not advance an argument will become a warning offence, and possibly a banning one if it persists.
---
"I fail to see how this assessment is accurate at all.
Dan Wallace uses Sidious' accomplishments as justification of him being the strongest Sith Lord. Can we say definitively he is physically the strongest? No. So how can we make a blanket assumption that he is the strongest in history? Is Sidious' primary accomplishments, such as taking over the Republic and ending the Jedi Order, personally executed? No. Could he personally go about and do it without help? Again, unlikely.
What I feel is ridiculous is that people are apparently attempting to apply this in a versus forum context. Nowhere does LFL attempt to create a pecking order based upon who would beat the other guy in a fight. LFL only attempts to establish a chronology detailing major events. Fights are merely corrollary."
Pointless distraction. I will make this clear- if an official and canon source says that Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord in history, only a total pedant and a person who has completely lost touch with rationality and sense will try and make out that this is the wrong kind of power. EVERY use of power in a Star Wars setting means force power, potency power... POWER. A small child can see this logic.
This continual attempt to evade the issue is pathetic.
Oh, and Sidious's physical power is as irrelevant as ever.
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"The NJO series was in paperback, is that an exaggeration?"
No, it is just rubbish.
That comment of yours was also magnificently irrelevant.
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"If the comics and cartoons are exaggerated, then so too are the books."
Lie.
---
"It's cretinous nonsense to assume that such a difference would have no effect. Trying to block a great sword with a rapier is stupidity at best. The fact of the matter is that Sidious has not demonstrated the premise for being able to generate the power necessary to repulse a bastard sword as compared to a lightsaber.
To assume that all weapons have no difference is even worse than to make the logically plausible and physically true argument that they do."
Sigh... simply too silly... well, I shall repeat once more- that once your weapon has the abilty to penetrate anything, like a lightsabre does, you don't NEED weight, NOR do you need to block. You just evade your opponent's clumsy weapon and stab him. You talk about physically real? In actual REAL LIFE, not your silly fantasy world, as soon as weight was not needed in weaoons- i.e. people stopped wearing armour- EVERYONE switched to rapiers and such. Bastard swords went out of existance as the useless relics they were.
But I am not surprised that you want to avoid that piece of reality as well.
-----
Now, let me make something clear to people. I don't care what your opinion of posters are. I certainly don't give a damn about power ratings in a silly continuity like this EU one. But I DO care about fair arguing and logical points being made inside my Star Wars area.
If Lightsnake successfully makes his case- that a comment saying Sidious is the most powerful has come from an official and canon source... then that is the end of the argument.
Your interpretations on it be damned. As far as this site is concerned, Sidious WILL be the most powerful, and like the application of canon, no further argument on it will be allowed.
So be aware- you had better be damn sure when opposing Lightsnake, because you might be very much on the losing side here.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
"That "Anyone" with an ounce of common sense is infact limited to you, Numan, Lightsnake and likely a few other members within this forum,"No. It is, in fact, the view of anyone with common sense, as I say. Only those of you now on a back foot and using desperate and silly methods to defend your position believe as you do.
---
"LMAO, Ushgarak! You and Lightsnake are related! You both scuttle off quietly after getting pwned and then come back for more!"
In your dreams.
Furthermore, that was an entirely useless and non-constructive post.
I don't want to see those any more. There is far too much petty and pointless bickering here. Continue to make posts which only attack others and do not advance an argument will become a warning offence, and possibly a banning one if it persists.
---
"I fail to see how this assessment is accurate at all.
Dan Wallace uses Sidious' accomplishments as justification of him being the strongest Sith Lord. Can we say definitively he is physically the strongest? No. So how can we make a blanket assumption that he is the strongest in history? Is Sidious' primary accomplishments, such as taking over the Republic and ending the Jedi Order, personally executed? No. Could he personally go about and do it without help? Again, unlikely.
What I feel is ridiculous is that people are apparently attempting to apply this in a versus forum context. Nowhere does LFL attempt to create a pecking order based upon who would beat the other guy in a fight. LFL only attempts to establish a chronology detailing major events. Fights are merely corrollary."
Pointless distraction. I will make this clear- if an official and canon source says that Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord in history, only a total pedant and a person who has completely lost touch with rationality and sense will try and make out that this is the wrong kind of power. EVERY use of power in a Star Wars setting means force power, potency power... POWER. A small child can see this logic.
This continual attempt to evade the issue is pathetic.
Oh, and Sidious's physical power is as irrelevant as ever.
---
"The NJO series was in paperback, is that an exaggeration?"
No, it is just rubbish.
That comment of yours was also magnificently irrelevant.
-
"If the comics and cartoons are exaggerated, then so too are the books."
Lie.
---
"It's cretinous nonsense to assume that such a difference would have no effect. Trying to block a great sword with a rapier is stupidity at best. The fact of the matter is that Sidious has not demonstrated the premise for being able to generate the power necessary to repulse a bastard sword as compared to a lightsaber.
To assume that all weapons have no difference is even worse than to make the logically plausible and physically true argument that they do."
Sigh... simply too silly... well, I shall repeat once more- that once your weapon has the abilty to penetrate anything, like a lightsabre does, you don't NEED weight, NOR do you need to block. You just evade your opponent's clumsy weapon and stab him. You talk about physically real? In actual REAL LIFE, not your silly fantasy world, as soon as weight was not needed in weaoons- i.e. people stopped wearing armour- EVERYONE switched to rapiers and such. Bastard swords went out of existance as the useless relics they were.
But I am not surprised that you want to avoid that piece of reality as well.
-----
Now, let me make something clear to people. I don't care what your opinion of posters are. I certainly don't give a damn about power ratings in a silly continuity like this EU one. But I DO care about fair arguing and logical points being made inside my Star Wars area.
If Lightsnake successfully makes his case- that a comment saying Sidious is the most powerful has come from an official and canon source... then that is the end of the argument.
Your interpretations on it be damned. As far as this site is concerned, Sidious WILL be the most powerful, and like the application of canon, no further argument on it will be allowed.
So be aware- you had better be damn sure when opposing Lightsnake, because you might be very much on the losing side here.
1. I disagree. I've already gone over this many times, and you've skirted a lot of arguments by simply saying "Wrong" or "Incorrect" and then just rendering your opinion. I'm also curious how much knowledge you actually have of the subject material, and curious as to when a single line in a reference material overwrites the entire backdrop and synapsis of a series.
2. I find it pretty disappointing that on a forum, you would go so far as to "take a stance" on an issue and declare your own opinion to be absolute, rendering any kind of disagreement or observation otherwise as ... oh what were your words?
Your interpretations on it be damned. As far as this site is concerned, Sidious WILL be the most powerful, and like the application of canon, no further argument on it will be allowed.
Geez, Ush... totalitarian much? So you speak for the entire site? And your decision is binding because of your interpretation of a single sentence? Because "most powerful" couldn't possibly be more political power than physical or force power, even though the justification that came in that supposed email from Dan Wallace cited achievements as key to his power, not force powers? I realize you have an undisguised disdain for most EU, but last I checked you didn't have the authority to tell people what they can think or not think here at KMC. Which brings me to three...
3. The only thing your post has convinced me off is your own narrowmindedness and ego. And when push comes to shove, I don't give a damn what you've decided; I don't agree and I plan to disagree until I'm convinced otherwise. I've never seen anything to give me faith in your absolute judgment because you've shown lots of ignorance on the side of EU and what I would certainly call an extreme movie bias. Elsewhere, I don't see you putting your foot down in the General Discussion forum when people don't agree with you on abortion or education. Since when do you get to render absolute decision for "Star Wars according to Ush/KMC"? There's no violation of forum policy for arguing vague lines and changes in SW canon- if anything it's implied in the idea of a forum to uh... discuss things. I realize you want to play Der Führer and swing your modly weight around, but I'm not impressed and I'm not cowed. So save your self-righteousness for the ones who care -- I don't. Mod's don't step in elsewhere and declare absolute judgment on any questions or issues, neither should you.
Originally posted by Deception
Greatest display? I think not, the strength of the Illusions that Sadow created over a scale of 3 planets is a much more impressive feat, than Sidious destroying fleets in a much more smaller scale.How? Sidious launched his Force Storm around his flagship, it was definitely in a smaller scale than Sadow's Illusions. Now the common argument is Sidious produced the Force Storm in 5 seconds, and Sadow produced his in a meditation chamber :
1) Sadow produced them to a greater scale of the length and breadth of a few planets.
2) Sidious needed to maintain control of his Force Storm, once he loses control, it consumes even himself.
3) Obviously had Sadow created Ilusions to the scale of Sidious's Force Storm it would require much less concentration and power, consider he did not require the meditation chamber to launch his attack, he required it to launch a more effective and powerful illusion.
No one doubts Sidious's power, but most of us doubts him being ranked No.1 of all time.
Lightsnake another question : Would you rate DN Luke above or below DE Sidious?
1. NO. We've seen Luke and Sidious create illusions of the same scale without the meditation sphere to amplify the ability. The force storm was a destructive force and described as the most powerful usage of dark force abilities of all time. Hell, the Force storm is the most powerful force technique known
2. He didn't lose control, Deception: the reason he lost was because Luke and Leia used the entire power of the light side not to fight him, but protect him...Palpatine lost control in order to summon the force storm, his rage was literally tearing the galaxy's fabric asunder.
3. Hard question. When Luke beat Sidious, neither of them were specifically mortal beings. They were described as tapping into the entirety of the dark side and light side respectively, like Ganner and Jacen did in the NJO...it was like the light and dark side became them and they became the opposite sides of the force. It's unknown if Luke's reached that divine power on his own...though as for physical strength, we've seen Luke crush a rock and a force crystal to powder using the force to amplify his strength,
Originally posted by Lee-San28
wow darth ragnos is obviously the strongest sith in history and dude dont be so literal about the "offical books" they say hese the best to make the story better and to hipe up the excitment.
I'm sure he knows exactly what he is talking about, saying "Darth Ragnos" and all.