Originally posted by kamikz
We have gone over this a 100 times already...What was he going to do, smile at you? He didn't see Raiden, if we judge from the cut scene, Vamp just stabs her then gets shot. How should Vamp be able to se Raiden from that position, and how should he dodge it while holding Emma? His goal there was to kill her...
WTF. Did you read it clearly? "I could say"... I was just arguing like you, that because Fox got hit once he sux bullshit...( Wow, impressive. He got shot by a sniper when holding a hostage....) I know he doesen't suck..
If you wanna waste you're time, sure, we will continue..
Simple, small move head to the right would've saved him from that shot.
And still he knew Raiden was there since Raiden had to blow up mines on Emma's way. It's hard not to notice that.
And I said that only in respone for your "wow, great speed..."
Isn't that what forums for? For discussing.
Originally posted by Superboy Prime
His goal by coming to Shadow moses was to fight Snake again. He said he would not get any peace until he fought Snake to the death, and that he did. We saw Fox getting pwned badly. How can someone fake getting hit in a metal suit? By as far as we know, Snake would have broke his legs and hands if he punched like that, but apparently he could.
Fox also hit him with swords and tossed a giant part of the roof against Snake, if Snake had not dodged those he would have been dead for sure. Snake defeated him end of story....It still does not take away the fact that it was Plot Induced Stupidity. Had Snake been killed by Fox then the game would have come to an end, and the players would not have been able to continue MGS. I am not taking away from the fact Snake did kick his ass, but given what we know of Cyborg Ninja it is a large stretch for Snake to beat him in hand to hand combat.
And you make it seem like Fox speed > Everything Snake has. That is not true. You guys have never played Metal Gear 1 and 2 before have you? There Snake defeates a guy named "running man" or something like that. He is the fastest man alive, Snake defeates him without much struggeling. He did it thanks to his skill and his wit. Then he defeated a man who was incredibly strong, THEN he also defeats Big Boss when he has a machine gun and Snake is UNARMED, again thanks to his skill, speed and wit. Big Boss was the best soldier every and Snake was a rookie. He also completed a mission Fox didn't get near completing and he defeated Fox in a battle after getting through a helluva place. Now, for a long time Fox has near dead and revived by a serum and the exo skeleton. So nothing should really have improved on Fox except his speed and his strenght. Apparently, Snake has defeated people who relied on these feats AND Snake has gotten even better and more experienced than when he faced Fox before. I think it is pretty ****ing likley Snake defeated him fair and square....
So because A > B we're lead to believe A > C? I will say it again it was PIS. Unless Snake's fist is in fact stronger than REX's armor it is PIS. I do not think Fox's speed alone outclasses Snake. The fact is we're talking about FOX-HOUND's best agent codenamed FOX. The only man to ever receive that codename. Second only to Big Boss and Big Boss's right hand. The Exo-skelleton increased Fox's reaction time, his speed, his endurance and his strength. Granted Snake has become much more experience since the time they fought in the mine field. However by the time of Sons of Liberty his genetic flaw has kicked and he has started to age at an alarming rate. Solid Snake did in fact rescue FOX, but have you forgotten what we find out later? Fox working for Big Boss.
Really, the only time I've seen Fox match Vamp in speed was when he freaked out thanks to the drugs he got in his suit. That made him go berserk and was not able to control himself. He is not good in this state, only faster and stronger...
It is more likley that Vamp if any, faked against Raiden. There were many times he could have killed him there, and so could many people have done. Raiden was supposed to have survived, it was the S3 systems plan, to make it look like a new Shadow Moses.
I am the one who sees no evidence proving Vamp is in the same speed league as Cyborg Ninja.
So it's okay for Vamp to be hurt by PIS, but not Cyborg Ninja? Cyborg Ninja was in fact looking for a final battle with Solid Snake, but what he desired the most was an end to his tortured existence. May I remind you Fox's last words to Snake?
Gray Fox to Solid Snake: "Now in front of you. I can finally die. After Zanzibar, I was taken from the battle neither truly alive nor truly dead... an undying shadow in the world of lights. But soon... soon. It will finally...end."
Me too, to bad we won't. But he showed incredible strenght by tossing knifes through helmets and killing instantly that way, and almost causing Snake too loose his arm by one punch, then almost rendering him unconscious by grabing his forehead.
He showed incredible strength doing that? Fox showed an unbelievable ammount of strength. That you cannot deny. When we see Vamp tossing cars left and right we will begin arguing Vamp's strength, but so far he cannot be placed in the same tier as Cyborg Ninja.
Are you delusional? How do you compare machine gun fire to the rate of REX's Rail Gun? The Rail Gun's rate of fire is faster than Machine Gun fire. If Vamp was to fight REX head on he would be destroyed as far as I can tell.
[i]What? When Fox lost his arm he was no longer being able to fight. He didn't even manage to dodge the slow knee of Metal Gear. He clearly reacted to it (screaming before it comes) but was too wounded. Just that he didn't die speaks nothing for him really...
I doubt Vamp would die easily. How do we know his bones are breakable, if he even has any. He is a vampire, his head got shot twice by a SOCOM and once by a PSG-1. That thing could shoot someone with such an impact that they would fly over 10 meters, and has mm Nato ammo which pierces through armour and is really deadly normally. If that would not crack his skull then what would?Fox was not out of the fight when he lost his arm. In fact it was then when he destroyed the redome. Even Liquid Snake himself was impressed by Fox's determination. Just that he didn't die speaks nothing for him? How about his exo-skelleton resisting Fox's weight twice before finally becoming a river of blood in the floor. How do we know his bones are breakable? Well the 2 bullets fired at him did in fact pierce though his skull, did they not? I don't recall ever seeing them bounce off. Far more resistant when compared to normal bones yes, but not unbreakable.
[i]
Of course Vamp could throw the freezing stunt when they're fighting; however Fox is not a rookie. Vamp will not be laughing his ass off and mocking while fighting Fox. In my opinion he would be paying more attention to Fox's HF blade and his attacks instead of thinking about freezing him. Even if Vamp manages to freeze him what will he do? Stab him to death? Somehow I don't see that happeneing. You seem to have a very specific memory. Vamp himself states he cannot read Raiden's moves when they encounter each other in Shell 2. Vamp reads what his opponents can do by the movements of their muscles. So I ask you this: what is an exo-skelleton? If you know the answer to this you will know Vamp will never be able to read Fox's moves.
It is not. We saw Fox getting his ass kicked, and he was indeed getting hurt. You can see sparks coming out of his suit, he is getting more and more frustrated and starts to breath heaviley. If Fox was going to fake getting his ass kicked there was no need coming there, or he could have pwned Snake right away, but apparently he could not...
He got the codename after working there a long time, Snake, when he first joined and was a rookie, completed that mission and freed him, and kicked his ass. Wasen't it in MG 2 that Fox turned?
And as you said, second only to Big Boss, as a rookie Snake defeated Big Boss, and Boss had a huge advantage in that battle. The fact that everytime Snake has went through this, he has fought gaurds, been running around for hours, done a hell of a lot work, he should be tired as hell...
And you were the one who implied that there is no logic in Snake facing someone as strong and as fast as Fox, but he has before and he has defeated them all... And Snake is pretty darn fast and strong too. He managed to outrun Raven's Vulcan canon range when he was running with a Stinger in his hand, even fire one shot...
Sure, Fox is strong as hell, but that doesen't necessarily mean his strenght will be better put in a fight hand to hand with punches and such. Apparently Snake could parry everything with his bare hands and could himself trip Fox with unarmed strikes, even get him near unconscious.
And I am not impressed by Fox's speed no more. He has invisibility which makes it much more harder for us as well to see him. He has incredible speed in his hands yes, but that is what I see most. I have not seen him show such a speed when moving and running. He is quite effective with dodging, Vamp is better by far though...
Only that Rex was standing far away, Raiden was max 3 meters away, firing an M-16. This did not make Vamp budge an inch, it was no concern, it would be easy as hell to hit someone that close.
And I did forget that Vamp said that he could not read Raiden, so sorry about that. But he still dodged his fire easy as hell... But the thing is that though he might not be able to read his muscles, he is still a master at seeing what the enemy will do, so though it is not an as far advantage as it would be, an advantage nontheless.
Fox was in no position to fight at all. When he lost his arm he could not move, he could raise his hand and shoot at most, but he would be no match to anyone special (you know what I mean by special) in that state. He had will power and courage, I'll give him that, so did Liquid, but impressing him by fighting until the end has nothing to do with this. Fox would not be a threat to anyone in that state....
Where is the proof to that his are only "more" resistant? A PSG-1 will blow you're head off, I only saw Vamp fall down by that shot...
No, of course not, he will take this fight very seriousley, but that does not mean he is going to execlude one of his superiour items. And it's not like Fox is going to know about it either, especially that it is effective just when being near the target. And when he is frozen he can disarm him, knock him unconscious, then do what he likes. It is not like Fox is invurnable in the suit, it will sonner or later break. Vamp could take his blade and cut off his head....
Originally posted by samishe
Simple, small move head to the right would've saved him from that shot.
And still he knew Raiden was there since Raiden had to blow up mines on Emma's way. It's hard not to notice that.And I said that only in respone for your "wow, great speed..."
Isn't that what forums for? For discussing.
Except we don't seem to be getting anywhere, well I guess that can change for both of us so......
Vamp didn't see that, he was under water. I don't think he was thinking like this, "wow, Emma is here, no mines killed her, hmmm, must be standing a guy snipering at....THAT position..." And he had already been fired in the head and had swam a long way, doesen't that normally tire people out?
It is not. We saw Fox getting his ass kicked, and he was indeed getting hurt. You can see sparks coming out of his suit, he is getting more and more frustrated and starts to breath heaviley. If Fox was going to fake getting his ass kicked there was no need coming there, or he could have pwned Snake right away, but apparently he could not...
We also saw Cyborg Ninja evading REX's Rail Gun. We also see him withstanding REX's leg and resisting it's force. We also see Fox's exo-skelleton enduring getting pinned 2 times before the final one makes him a goner. It isn't really that hard to see how PIS CN vs SS was in MGS. Had Fox been fighting and moving with the speed, strength and endurance he has shown Solid Snake would not stand a chance. Fox's HF blade alone rendered Solid Snake's weapons useless, and he kept himself from using it against him insisting on having a hand to hand fight.
He got the codename after working there a long time, Snake, when he first joined and was a rookie, completed that mission and freed him, and kicked his ass. Wasen't it in MG 2 that Fox turned?
And as you said, second only to Big Boss, as a rookie Snake defeated Big Boss, and Boss had a huge advantage in that battle. The fact that everytime Snake has went through this, he has fought gaurds, been running around for hours, done a hell of a lot work, he should be tired as hell...
And you were the one who implied that there is no logic in Snake facing someone as strong and as fast as Fox, but he has before and he has defeated them all... And Snake is pretty darn fast and strong too. He managed to outrun Raven's Vulcan canon range when he was running with a Stinger in his hand, even fire one shot...
Good points. I have one question though, when and where was it stated how long it took Fox to achieve that rank?
Sure, Fox is strong as hell, but that doesen't necessarily mean his strenght will be better put in a fight hand to hand with punches and such. Apparently Snake could parry everything with his bare hands and could himself trip Fox with unarmed strikes, even get him near unconscious.
The strength comes into play when the HF blade is swung by an individual like Gray Fox.
And I am not impressed by Fox's speed no more. He has invisibility which makes it much more harder for us as well to see him. He has incredible speed in his hands yes, but that is what I see most. I have not seen him show such a speed when moving and running. He is quite effective with dodging, Vamp is better by far though...
By far? You're stretching it.
Only that Rex was standing far away, Raiden was max 3 meters away, firing an M-16. This did not make Vamp budge an inch, it was no concern, it would be easy as hell to hit someone that close.
And I did forget that Vamp said that he could not read Raiden, so sorry about that. But he still dodged his fire easy as hell... But the thing is that though he might not be able to read his muscles, he is still a master at seeing what the enemy will do, so though it is not an as far advantage as it would be, an advantage nontheless.
When Gray Fox was heading to Otacon's cell the Genome soldiers were firing at him. He was basically at the same range Vamp was when he deflected the bullets prior to Raiden's first encounter. When was Raiden firing the M16 at Vamp? Are you talking about the fight itself(gameplay)? If that's the case it's also possible to have Snake fire an automatic riffle at CN and have CN deflect every single bullet. Alright no problem forgetting about that line. Too many lines in the game anyways. However when was it stated that Vamp was a master at knowing what people are going to do without reading their muscles?
Fox was in no position to fight at all. When he lost his arm he could not move, he could raise his hand and shoot at most, but he would be no match to anyone special (you know what I mean by special) in that state. He had will power and courage, I'll give him that, so did Liquid, but impressing him by fighting until the end has nothing to do with this. Fox would not be a threat to anyone in that state....
The reason he was in no position to fight, as you call it, was because he got rammed against the wall by REX's cockpit. That is why Fox was unable to move. When his arm got sliced off he leaped a good number of feet up to blast the radome. So it is quite possible for Fox to fight with just one arm. What incapacitated him was REX's cockpit pinning him against the wall.
Where is the proof to that his are only "more" resistant? A PSG-1 will blow you're head off, I only saw Vamp fall down by that shot...
The fact the bullet didn't bounce off his forhead is proof enough for me.
No, of course not, he will take this fight very seriousley, but that does not mean he is going to execlude one of his superiour items. And it's not like Fox is going to know about it either, especially that it is effective just when being near the target. And when he is frozen he can disarm him, knock him unconscious, then do what he likes. It is not like Fox is invurnable in the suit, it will sonner or later break. Vamp could take his blade and cut off his head....
Do you even know how the freezing stuff works? It is based on shadows. Next time you play MGS2 have Raiden shoot the lights. It rids him of his shadow and renders Vamp's freezing stunt useless. Now suppose Fox is fighting Vamp with his Stealth Camo on: how will it work on him? And even if it worked Cyborg Ninja's reaction time is greater/faster than that of Raiden, and Raiden did manage to break free of the stunt quite fast.
Originally posted by Superboy Prime
It is not. We saw Fox getting his ass kicked, and he was indeed getting hurt. You can see sparks coming out of his suit, he is getting more and more frustrated and starts to breath heaviley. If Fox was going to fake getting his ass kicked there was no need coming there, or he could have pwned Snake right away, but apparently he could not...We also saw Cyborg Ninja evading REX's Rail Gun. We also see him withstanding REX's leg and resisting it's force. We also see Fox's exo-skelleton enduring getting pinned 2 times before the final one makes him a goner. It isn't really that hard to see how PIS CN vs SS was in MGS. Had Fox been fighting and moving with the speed, strength and endurance he has shown Solid Snake would not stand a chance. Fox's HF blade alone rendered Solid Snake's weapons useless, and he kept himself from using it against him insisting on having a hand to hand fight.
He got the codename after working there a long time, Snake, when he first joined and was a rookie, completed that mission and freed him, and kicked his ass. Wasen't it in MG 2 that Fox turned?
And as you said, second only to Big Boss, as a rookie Snake defeated Big Boss, and Boss had a huge advantage in that battle. The fact that everytime Snake has went through this, he has fought gaurds, been running around for hours, done a hell of a lot work, he should be tired as hell...
And you were the one who implied that there is no logic in Snake facing someone as strong and as fast as Fox, but he has before and he has defeated them all... And Snake is pretty darn fast and strong too. He managed to outrun Raven's Vulcan canon range when he was running with a Stinger in his hand, even fire one shot...Good points. I have one question though, when and where was it stated how long it took Fox to achieve that rank?
Sure, Fox is strong as hell, but that doesen't necessarily mean his strenght will be better put in a fight hand to hand with punches and such. Apparently Snake could parry everything with his bare hands and could himself trip Fox with unarmed strikes, even get him near unconscious.
The strength comes into play when the HF blade is swung by an individual like Gray Fox.
And I am not impressed by Fox's speed no more. He has invisibility which makes it much more harder for us as well to see him. He has incredible speed in his hands yes, but that is what I see most. I have not seen him show such a speed when moving and running. He is quite effective with dodging, Vamp is better by far though...
By far? You're stretching it.
Only that Rex was standing far away, Raiden was max 3 meters away, firing an M-16. This did not make Vamp budge an inch, it was no concern, it would be easy as hell to hit someone that close.
And I did forget that Vamp said that he could not read Raiden, so sorry about that. But he still dodged his fire easy as hell... But the thing is that though he might not be able to read his muscles, he is still a master at seeing what the enemy will do, so though it is not an as far advantage as it would be, an advantage nontheless.When Gray Fox was heading to Otacon's cell the Genome soldiers were firing at him. He was basically at the same range Vamp was when he deflected the bullets prior to Raiden's first encounter. When was Raiden firing the M16 at Vamp? Are you talking about the fight itself(gameplay)? If that's the case it's also possible to have Snake fire an automatic riffle at CN and have CN deflect every single bullet. Alright no problem forgetting about that line. Too many lines in the game anyways. However when was it stated that Vamp was a master at knowing what people are going to do without reading their muscles?
Fox was in no position to fight at all. When he lost his arm he could not move, he could raise his hand and shoot at most, but he would be no match to anyone special (you know what I mean by special) in that state. He had will power and courage, I'll give him that, so did Liquid, but impressing him by fighting until the end has nothing to do with this. Fox would not be a threat to anyone in that state....
The reason he was in no position to fight, as you call it, was because he got rammed against the wall by REX's cockpit. That is why Fox was unable to move. When his arm got sliced off he leaped a good number of feet up to blast the radome. So it is quite possible for Fox to fight with just one arm. What incapacitated him was REX's cockpit pinning him against the wall.
Where is the proof to that his are only "more" resistant? A PSG-1 will blow you're head off, I only saw Vamp fall down by that shot...
The fact the bullet didn't bounce off his forhead is proof enough for me.
No, of course not, he will take this fight very seriousley, but that does not mean he is going to execlude one of his superiour items. And it's not like Fox is going to know about it either, especially that it is effective just when being near the target. And when he is frozen he can disarm him, knock him unconscious, then do what he likes. It is not like Fox is invurnable in the suit, it will sonner or later break. Vamp could take his blade and cut off his head....
Do you even know how the freezing stuff works? It is based on shadows. Next time you play MGS2 have Raiden shoot the lights. It rids him of his shadow and renders Vamp's freezing stunt useless. Now suppose Fox is fighting Vamp with his Stealth Camo on: how will it work on him? And even if it worked Cyborg Ninja's reaction time is greater/faster than that of Raiden, and Raiden did manage to break free of the stunt quite fast.
There is a difference. The clone troopers in Star Wars had armour that resisted the impact of a laser blast, but the impact was too much on their suits and they lost their breath and could not fight, most of them died because of this, thus most were still alive when they were lying on the battle field. This could be the deal here, most likley it is...
And you seem to forget that Snake did fight Fox when he used his HF sword, and used his speed, still Fox ran away. Fox was not holding back here, he got one of those drug attacks, but only a minor, he saw everything in red. First he was talking to Snake, probably gonna propose the same battle as he did later on, but when it kicked in his only goal was to kill him, he even attacked first...
Grey Fox was one of the older members in Foxhound, he had been there over 5 years, and had gotten the codename. When he was captured, Snake freed him and Fox HELPED him destroy prototype Metal Gear. That would be good if he was working with Big Boss....It was in MG 2 he betrayed them, in MG 1 they were best friends.
Snake was newly recruited, still, after this mission he got the codename Solid Snake, similar to the same Big Boss had...
Yeah, I am stretching it, haha. Not by far, donno what made me write that. But I think he is faster anyway...
As you saw in MGS 2, the slightest hard hit makes the stealth camoflauge go nuts and go away. So it would not cause much to do it. Otacon said it was overused, I bet Fox's was pretty much used during the whole Shadow Moses incident. So it would probably not require so hard strikes to destroy it, and that is probably the reason it is deactivated when he gets blood all over his body (in the hallway). Also, there is a possibility that the thing Vamp tosses is removed when Shadow strikes upon it. After all, when Raiden is frozen, he says, "My body....." and the shadow is not a part of the body, so I seriousley doubt that the shadow itself has anything to do with it. But I might be wrong....
I forgot one thing, that you mean about Fox deflecting. Sure, he was deflecting alot of fire with his sword, and I know he is fast that way, but again that is only proof for his speed in his arms. Fox when dodging fire is not near the caliber of Vamp dodging, Vamp is dodging much quicker and more effective, showing much more speed that way...
There is a difference. The clone troopers in Star Wars had armour that resisted the impact of a laser blast, but the impact was too much on their suits and they lost their breath and could not fight, most of them died because of this, thus most were still alive when they were lying on the battle field. This could be the deal here, most likley it is...
And you seem to forget that Snake did fight Fox when he used his HF sword, and used his speed, still Fox ran away. Fox was not holding back here, he got one of those drug attacks, but only a minor, he saw everything in red. First he was talking to Snake, probably gonna propose the same battle as he did later on, but when it kicked in his only goal was to kill him, he even attacked first...
Grey Fox was one of the older members in Foxhound, he had been there over 5 years, and had gotten the codename. When he was captured, Snake freed him and Fox HELPED him destroy prototype Metal Gear. That would be good if he was working with Big Boss....It was in MG 2 he betrayed them, in MG 1 they were best friends.
Snake was newly recruited, still, after this mission he got the codename Solid Snake, similar to the same Big Boss had...
Yeah, I am stretching it, haha. Not by far, donno what made me write that. But I think he is faster anyway...
As you saw in MGS 2, the slightest hard hit makes the stealth camoflauge go nuts and go away. So it would not cause much to do it. Otacon said it was overused, I bet Fox's was pretty much used during the whole Shadow Moses incident. So it would probably not require so hard strikes to destroy it, and that is probably the reason it is deactivated when he gets blood all over his body (in the hallway). Also, there is a possibility that the thing Vamp tosses is removed when Shadow strikes upon it. After all, when Raiden is frozen, he says, "My body....." and the shadow is not a part of the body, so I seriousley doubt that the shadow itself has anything to do with it. But I might be wrong....
I fail to see how SW fits in all of this. First off Snake's punches are not blaster fire, bullets, lasers nor blades. Flesh and bone, and no matter how hard Snake may hit it still does not equal the force behind REX's stomping. Fox did not lose consciousness, nor did he lose his breath when he got smashed by it. Technically Snake's fists should've broken the moment his punch hit Cyborg Ninja's exo-skelleton. I'm glad you brought that up. True Fox and Snake went at it with weapons, but seriously what would've happened if Fox did not halt his sword's momentum? Snake's head would have been sliced off at the cost of what? Taking a shot from Snake's S.O.C.O.M? He could've easily evaded it in the process, but no he decided not to. Why? Plot induced stupidity. Also Fox did get hit by REX's railgun when he decided to dash towards REX. The railgun did not stop him. Snake's S.O.C.O.M ammo would must likely tickle Fox at best.
Where can I confirm this information? Actually stating it took Fox 5 years. Also Snake had the Solid Snake codename given to him the moment he was born. Quite in fact it's possible he was given the codename since the moment they started the whole Les Enfants Terrible experiment.
What I meant by the shadows is that the shadows are key to making the freezing a success. So if Cyborg Ninja has no shadow it will be rendered useless. Vamp will be punching/stabbing Fox with enough force to make him visible(shadow) and then proceed to freeze him? Given how fast they both are(and I am getting out of my character and making them equal speedwise) it will only happen if Fox is standing there like a moron. Which in an all out brawl free of Plot Stupidity will simply not happen.
A brief recap of why I believe Fox will finish Vamp off:
a) Superior Strength
b) Superior Speed
c) Superior Resistance
d) Equal skills--if not superior
e) Better weapons
I forgot one thing, that you mean about Fox deflecting. Sure, he was deflecting alot of fire with his sword, and I know he is fast that way, but again that is only proof for his speed in his arms. Fox when dodging fire is not near the caliber of Vamp dodging, Vamp is dodging much quicker and more effective, showing much more speed that way...
I seriously think you're doing this on purpose. Cyborg Ninja was fast enough to run all over Rex's railgun, jumping, flipping, cartwheeling. When the Genome soldiers/Solid Snake fire at him he simply stands there and deflects them with his arms/HF blade because there is no need to put more effort into it.
Originally posted by kamikz
Except we don't seem to be getting anywhere, well I guess that can change for both of us so......Vamp didn't see that, he was under water. I don't think he was thinking like this, "wow, Emma is here, no mines killed her, hmmm, must be standing a guy snipering at....THAT position..." And he had already been fired in the head and had swam a long way, doesen't that normally tire people out?
People yes but he isn't human and i'm still sure that water keeps him alive. There may not be logical explanation of that but many things in MGS are not explaned. Like how the hell Fortune saved everyone from Ray's missiles when her gadget wasn't already working. So it turned out that she was lady luck even without that technology. What a coincidence!
Grey Fox was one of the older members in Foxhound, he had been there over 5 years, and had gotten the codename. When he was captured, Snake freed him and Fox HELPED him destroy prototype Metal Gear. That would be good if he was working with Big Boss....It was in MG 2 he betrayed them, in MG 1 they were best friends.
Snake was newly recruited, still, after this mission he got the codename Solid Snake, similar to the same Big Boss had...
Yeah, I am stretching it, haha. Not by far, donno what made me write that. But I think he is faster anyway...
As you saw in MGS 2, the slightest hard hit makes the stealth camoflauge go nuts and go away. So it would not cause much to do it. Otacon said it was overused, I bet Fox's was pretty much used during the whole Shadow Moses incident. So it would probably not require so hard strikes to destroy it, and that is probably the reason it is deactivated when he gets blood all over his body (in the hallway). Also, there is a possibility that the thing Vamp tosses is removed when Shadow strikes upon it. After all, when Raiden is frozen, he says, "My body....." and the shadow is not a part of the body, so I seriousley doubt that the shadow itself has anything to do with it. But I might be wrong....[/i]
I fail to see how SW fits in all of this. First off Snake's punches are not blaster fire, bullets, lasers nor blades. Flesh and bone, and no matter how hard Snake may hit it still does not equal the force behind REX's stomping. Fox did not lose consciousness, nor did he lose his breath when he got smashed by it. Technically Snake's fists should've broken the moment his punch hit Cyborg Ninja's exo-skelleton. I'm glad you brought that up. True Fox and Snake went at it with weapons, but seriously what would've happened if Fox did not halt his sword's momentum? Snake's head would have been sliced off at the cost of what? Taking a shot from Snake's S.O.C.O.M? He could've easily evaded it in the process, but no he decided not to. Why? Plot induced stupidity. Also Fox did get hit by REX's railgun when he decided to dash towards REX. The railgun did not stop him. Snake's S.O.C.O.M ammo would must likely tickle Fox at best.
Where can I confirm this information? Actually stating it took Fox 5 years. Also Snake had the Solid Snake codename given to him the moment he was born. Quite in fact it's possible he was given the codename since the moment they started the whole Les Enfants Terrible experiment.
What I meant by the shadows is that the shadows are key to making the freezing a success. So if Cyborg Ninja has no shadow it will be rendered useless. Vamp will be punching/stabbing Fox with enough force to make him visible(shadow) and then proceed to freeze him? Given how fast they both are(and I am getting out of my character and making them equal speedwise) it will only happen if Fox is standing there like a moron. Which in an all out brawl free of Plot Stupidity will simply not happen.
A brief recap of why I believe Fox will finish Vamp off:
a) Superior Strength
b) Superior Speed
c) Superior Resistance
d) Equal skills--if not superior
e) Better weapons
I forgot one thing, that you mean about Fox deflecting. Sure, he was deflecting alot of fire with his sword, and I know he is fast that way, but again that is only proof for his speed in his arms. Fox when dodging fire is not near the caliber of Vamp dodging, Vamp is dodging much quicker and more effective, showing much more speed that way...
I seriously think you're doing this on purpose. Cyborg Ninja was fast enough to run all over Rex's railgun, jumping, flipping, cartwheeling. When the Genome soldiers/Solid Snake fire at him he simply stands there and deflects them with his arms/HF blade because there is no need to put more effort into it. [/B][/QUOTE]
Yes, but why didn't he break his legs and his hands? You can't blame it all on bad plotting or anything, that is the way it happened. And why would Fox fake a damage, he did indeed feel damage, watch the scene where he fights Snake again, Snake is not even breathing hard himself....
You are saying that you have seen Fox doing so much more then when he fights Snake, but that was when fighting normal guards and was invisible to their eyes. Snake pwned Fox in unarmed, and they stalemated when both were fighting. Fox was not prepared for the gun Snake aimed to his face, and Snake was not prepared for that strike. Saying that "Fox would have dodged it easily" does not fit since he did not do it, even the best can be surprised. And we saw Snake dodge many strikes from his sword as well so.....
Ok, let's take it like this... How can you judge someone to be the best, if only through a mere choice of some missions? He had to complete a hell of alot of them to get that ranking, and he was there in five years, it should have taken him at least some years to aquire that. Since Snake completed missions that Fox didn't, and the most incredible missions given to any Foxhound member, still only aquired a better codename than before. (He did indeed get a new codename, but I have to check it up)
Answere why it must be shadows.... And even if it is, the stealth belt is easily disrupted....
And again, in that room he had speed in his arms apparently, and when fighting Rex he ran at normal speed against it and lost his helmet on the way. If Vamp was there he would be flying all over the room, just like he did in the beginning...
I belive Vamp would win because....
Superior speed.
Near/invurnable
Doesen't have a hearth beat, undead.
Equal/more skills.
And the weapons, well, those are pretty good. One hell of an army with tossing knifes, a bowie knife for melee, that freezing shit.
I think this battle can be very good decided in where they are, what is the terrain? That could be it....
Vamp is very strong too, I mean, he can swim in Liquid water that is supposed to clean up oil, that has near no buoyancy at all. It will be next to impossible to swim there, and to breath it in would be fatal. Raiden is a strong man, still he gets dragged there within a second. Vamp swims around there like it was normal. Then he fataly wounds Snake's arm in one hit and lifts him over the ground with one hand, and holds him down on the ground with one too.
I'm not implying that he is above Fox in strenght, but he is damn strong anyway....
And as shown from Vamp's fighting movement, it seems much more effective than Fox's. You see the scene where a guard opens full auto on Vamp, he spinns and quickly spinns around him and on the way, he cuts him 3-4 times, then cuts his throat.....
Edit: 2 Shots from a vulcan made his helmet totally disappear, it trashed like it was nothing. If you said that it took an extreme rate of fire when running into his fire then that is wrong, it came nearer and nearer, then it hit him, he lost his helmet, and instead started to grind on the floor to avoid it. Then he barley dodged the head of it and got his arm cut off.
And need I reminde you that Snake was also fighting Metal Gear, a whole lot longer than Fox, so Snake would also have to encounter that kind of shooting, and survive..... He dodged Metal Gear's knee as well, he jumped up on it then jumped away when it came down. (Beginning scene).
Just watched that cut scene where Vamp first appeared.
He didn't even squeezed or punched Snake's hand he simply cut it. And there was no wonder that not Raiden nor Snake gave him normal fight because they both were like "WTF??" Raiden was just standing and watching at him, he didn't expected Vamp to move that superhumanly fast. And when Snake came in he was far from both of them and he didn't realised who he was fighting with. He only saw that he shot someone who then dissapeared. Then Vamp attacked when Snake couldn't see him.
Yes, but why didn't he break his legs and his hands? You can't blame it all on bad plotting or anything, that is the way it happened. And why would Fox fake a damage, he did indeed feel damage, watch the scene where he fights Snake again, Snake is not even breathing hard himself....
You are saying that you have seen Fox doing so much more then when he fights Snake, but that was when fighting normal guards and was invisible to their eyes. Snake pwned Fox in unarmed, and they stalemated when both were fighting. Fox was not prepared for the gun Snake aimed to his face, and Snake was not prepared for that strike. Saying that "Fox would have dodged it easily" does not fit since he did not do it, even the best can be surprised. And we saw Snake dodge many strikes from his sword as well so.....
Ok, let's take it like this... How can you judge someone to be the best, if only through a mere choice of some missions? He had to complete a hell of alot of them to get that ranking, and he was there in five years, it should have taken him at least some years to aquire that. Since Snake completed missions that Fox didn't, and the most incredible missions given to any Foxhound member, still only aquired a better codename than before. (He did indeed get a new codename, but I have to check it up)
Answere why it must be shadows.... And even if it is, the stealth belt is easily disrupted....
And again, in that room he had speed in his arms apparently, and when fighting Rex he ran at normal speed against it and lost his helmet on the way. If Vamp was there he would be flying all over the room, just like he did in the beginning...
I belive Vamp would win because....
Superior speed.
Near/invurnable
Doesen't have a hearth beat, undead.
Equal/more skills.
And the weapons, well, those are pretty good. One hell of an army with tossing knifes, a bowie knife for melee, that freezing shit.
I think this battle can be very good decided in where they are, what is the terrain? That could be it....
Vamp is very strong too, I mean, he can swim in Liquid water that is supposed to clean up oil, that has near no buoyancy at all. It will be next to impossible to swim there, and to breath it in would be fatal. Raiden is a strong man, still he gets dragged there within a second. Vamp swims around there like it was normal. Then he fataly wounds Snake's arm in one hit and lifts him over the ground with one hand, and holds him down on the ground with one too.
I'm not implying that he is above Fox in strenght, but he is damn strong anyway....
And as shown from Vamp's fighting movement, it seems much more effective than Fox's. You see the scene where a guard opens full auto on Vamp, he spinns and quickly spinns around him and on the way, he cuts him 3-4 times, then cuts his throat.....
I can't blame the plot for the fact Snake didn't break his hands? There is nothing else to be blamed. Should Snake hit that exo-skelleton his hands would break. It is obvious why they did not. So saying that CN could have easily dodged the bullet does not fit? Because he didn't? PIS. But since neither Vamp nor Cyborg Ninja use gunfire while fighting I'll stop arguing about it.
You're indeed coming up with your own conclusions as to how long it took Gray Fox to achieve his rank. Show me the evidence where it states he took him "long" to achieve said rank. Snake already had his codename before he joined FOX-HOUND. Liquid Snake had the same codename, so did Solidus and Solidus never joined FOX-HOUND.
It must be shadows simply because when you fight Vamp if you shoot the lights and thus make Raiden have no visible shadow whenever Vamp tries to freeze him it fails.
So Fox was running at normal speed when dodging REX's railgun? Okay. No comment there if you actually believe he was running at normal speed. At the very least FOX was moving at extremely high velocities given that's how fast REX's railgun is. Speed in his arms only? So you're assuming the Exo-Skelleton only increased the speed in his arms? I don't see that being the case with his performance against REX.
Superior Speed? Vamp is not as fast as Gray Fox. At his very best I'd consider them equals
Near Invulnerability? A bullet simply pierced his forhead. Quite in fact both times he got shot in the face he was down for a while until he came in contact with water. REX's bullets are indeed more deadly than the bullets Vamp swallowed, and Fox didn't even slowdown when he got hit by REX's railgun. I give him the fact he is most likely an undead, but then again losing his head would render him useless in the fight unless he grabs it with one hand and has the head order his body where to attack etc.
Weapon Wise he is screwed. His arsenal is no where near as effective as Cyborg Ninja's. The HF Blade alone outclasses his knives. Then you have his arm-cannon thing which destroyed the radome. Then you have his Chaff-like interference.
Vamp is strong all right. But no where near Gray Fox's league in his Exo-Skelleton.
Oh yeah Vamp is indeed impressive when he is taking on the SEALs. Fox is also impressive when he makes pizza slices out of the genome soldiers. Vamp's also impressive when he is taking on Snake. He is also impressive when he evades all of REX's firepower and finally destroys the radome.
Fact of the matter is Vamp has not done anything that would be impossible for Fox to do.