The Doctrine of One God

Originally posted by Jury
Punker, I'm showing you examples on how the statement can be used. You are drawing an irrelevant conclusion out of that statement.

As I said, Jesus' statement "I and my Father are one" doesn't make Him God Himself as how you are trying to imply. There is nothing in the verse saying that Jesus is the Father Himself. It's only your own conclusion.

Yes. Jesus and the Father are one. But not what in the way you think it is. They are not one of being God. They are not one person. The Son is always distinct from the Father. They are not one in number. They are two.

In what way then are they one? I already answered this. And the Bible itself answers this. Just read the preceding verses of John 10:30. I already quoted it in my previous post.

🙂

Yes, it does. Theres nothing in that passage of scripture or in the proceeding scriptures that says he isn't. One in "Unity" is your opinion. Im not even saying my opinion really. More of just what the scripture says. I believe that when Jesus says that he and his father are ONE. It means just that. They are ONE. In every way, shape, and form or else he wouldn't have used the term "One".

Like I said, I dont know how to argue with you. If you where a Trinitarian trying to tell me that Jesus and the Father are like one in Unity I would've set your straight by now. They believe that they are on as in one flesh like a marriage. And thats just false all in itself. Because you can be in unity all you want. But when you see Jesus you see the Father just like he said to Phillip. He didn't say you see the Son but the Father. This is a reply Jesus gave Phillip when he asked about The Father. Jesus was basically wondering why Phillip couldn't recognize the Father even though he had been in front of him for so long.

We're done with John 10:30. All im going to say is that when Jesus says he and the Father are One. Its means he and the father are ONE. Also, why are you dwelling on the proceeding verses while ignoring that fact that the statement Jesus made saying "I and my Father are One" was also part of an answer he gave to the Jews explaining that he was in fact the Christ.

Premise - The Bible is true in its entirety
inference - God exists
inference - Jesus had some divine power (he was resurrected, miracles, etc.)
inference - Jesus and God are one
conclusion #1 - Jesus and God are the same person
conclusion #2 - Jesus and God work together as a single entity(like a team)

both conclusions have been presented here. There may be other conclusions or inferences that can be drawn based on the given premise, but those are the main ones that have been presented.

The main problem I see with the first conclusion is that it is only supported by a few scriptures. You have to ignore or stretch/twist the rest of the bible to conform to this conclusion.

Conclusion #2 seems more logical to me. If we also assume that Jesus was always honest, how can we say that he prayed to himself? Why spend 40 days and nights in the desert fasting and praying? To whom was he referring when he cried out "father why hast thou deserted me." on the cross? I can't rely on just a few verses to form an opinion about this, I have to rely on all of the scriptures.

Originally posted by docb77
Premise - The Bible is true in its entirety
inference - God exists
inference - Jesus had some divine power (he was resurrected, miracles, etc.)
inference - Jesus and God are one
conclusion #1 - Jesus and God are the same person
conclusion #2 - Jesus and God work together as a single entity(like a team)

both conclusions have been presented here. There may be other conclusions or inferences that can be drawn based on the given premise, but those are the main ones that have been presented.

The main problem I see with the first conclusion is that it is only supported by a few scriptures. You have to ignore or stretch/twist the rest of the bible to conform to this conclusion.

Conclusion #2 seems more logical to me. If we also assume that Jesus was always honest, how can we say that he prayed to himself? Why spend 40 days and nights in the desert fasting and praying? To whom was he referring when he cried out "father why hast thou deserted me." on the cross? I can't rely on just a few verses to form an opinion about this, I have to rely on all of the scriptures.

Your aren't relying on just a few verses. Oneness scriptures are mentioned all over the Bible. And if you study OT prophecy you can find more.

That was Jesus's flesh praying to spirit. You aren't relying on "all" the scriptures for your Conclusion #2. Your relying on a few scriptures and you dont even fully understand your opposing.

There are two things Jesus came to earth to do. To set an example (prayer, fasting, baptism, good teaching etc.) and to die for out sins. He did both.

Originally posted by debbiejo
And worshiping Jesus is heresy......

Ei, debs. I also worship Jesus. I don't consider it heresy. 😎

Originally posted by Punker69
Yes, it does. Theres nothing in that passage of scripture or in the proceeding scriptures that says he isn't. One in "Unity" is your opinion. Im not even saying my opinion really. More of just what the scripture says. I believe that when Jesus says that he and his father are ONE. It means just that. They are ONE. In every way, shape, and form or else he wouldn't have used the term "One".

Punker, you are saying that Jesus is the Father. I asked you why you say so. And you quoted John 10:30. Now, you're telling me you mean the verse just the way it is?

If you only mean the verse just the way it is, "I and my Father are one", then why would you conclude that Jesus is the Father Himself when He didn't even mention anywhere in the Bible that He is His Father?

Yes, Punker.
Jesus and the Father are one.
Jesus and His Church are one.
Jesus is not His Father.
Jesus is not His Church. 🙂

Originally posted by Punker69
Like I said, I dont know how to argue with you. If you where a Trinitarian trying to tell me that Jesus and the Father are like one in Unity I would've set your straight by now. They believe that they are on as in one flesh like a marriage. And thats just false all in itself. Because you can be in unity all you want. But when you see Jesus you see the Father just like he said to Phillip. He didn't say you see the Son but the Father. This is a reply Jesus gave Phillip when he asked about The Father. Jesus was basically wondering why Phillip couldn't recognize the Father even though he had been in front of him for so long.

Did Jesus tell Phillip He is the Father? Or He just told Phillip the Father is in Him? What did Phillip ask Jesus, by the way? Did Jesus give Phillip what he was asking for? Can you please quote the verse for me for the sake of discussion? 🙂

Originally posted by Punker69
We're done with John 10:30. All im going to say is that when Jesus says he and the Father are One. Its means he and the father are ONE. Also, why are you dwelling on the proceeding verses while ignoring that fact that the statement Jesus made saying "I and my Father are One" was also part of an answer he gave to the Jews explaining that he was in fact the Christ.

Correction. Did I say "proceeding"?
"Preceding" verses, Punker. John 10:30 was Jesus' conclusion to what He was proclaiming earlier. He is telling us in the preceding verses that His Father have the "same purpose" as He have with taking care of the flock.

And, may I remind you again. You're not just saying that Jesus and His Father are one. You're saying that in that statement, Jesus is claiming He is the Father Himself. That's what you are saying. 🙂

John 14:6-13

6.Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life;no man commeth unto the Father, but by me.

7. If ye had known me, ye should've known my Father also, and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

8.Phillip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philli? He that hath seen me hath seen the Fathe; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

10.Believest not that I am in the Father and the Father in me? words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Verse 10 is another example of Jesus speaking of the spirit inside of him which is that of God using his flesh. His flesh was reffering to spirit.

11. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works sake.

Skip to verse 13 is another example of how the Bible would contradict itself if there wasn't One God.

13. And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

Isaiah 42:8 - My glory I will not give to another.

Originally posted by Punker69
Your aren't relying on just a few verses. Oneness scriptures are mentioned all over the Bible. And if you study OT prophecy you can find more.

What I meant by that was that all scriptures must be considered, and while there are some that suggest "oneness" there are others - equally valid - that point at a separateness. All of these must be considered and the simplest way to reconcile them is for Jesus and His Father to be separate beings with a single (one) purpose.

Originally posted by Punker69
That was Jesus's flesh praying to spirit. You aren't relying on "all" the scriptures for your Conclusion #2. Your relying on a few scriptures and you dont even fully understand your opposing.

This is what I mean about the simplest way to reconcile them. It doesn't sound like he's praying to his own spirit. It sounds like he's praying to His Father. He says that so many times in the NT it's obvious that he has a father, not that he is his father.

Originally posted by Punker69
There are two things Jesus came to earth to do. To set an example (prayer, fasting, baptism, good teaching etc.) and to die for out sins. He did both.

Completely agree. Example and Atonement.

Originally posted by Jury
Correction. Did I say "proceeding"?
"Preceding" verses, Punker. John 10:30 was Jesus' conclusion to what He was proclaiming earlier. He is telling us in the preceding verses that His Father have the "same purpose" as He have with taking care of the flock.

And, may I remind you again. You're not just saying that Jesus and His Father are one. You're saying that in that statement, Jesus is claiming He is the Father Himself. That's what you are saying. 🙂

I believe when Jesus says he and another are ONE. He means just what he says. One.

I just read the preceeding verses for myself. They dont prove anything.

What's with that verse? Are you saying now that John 10:30 is not a proof that Jesus is the Father Himself? That John 10:30 is only saying that Jesus and His Father are one? That you were wrong when you quote the passage to support your contention that Jesus is the Father Himself (that's why you resort to other verses)?

🙂

John 14:6 is not saying Jesus is the Father Himself. If He is the Father Himself, why would Jesus say He is the way to the Father?

If the Father is the house, and Jesus is the gate, can you say that the gate is the house?

Originally posted by docb77
This is what I mean about the simplest way to reconcile them. It doesn't sound like he's praying to his own spirit. It sounds like he's praying to His Father. He says that so many times in the NT it's obvious that he has a father, not that he is his father.

You agree that Jesus came to set in example. And that example included praying and fasting. How is Jesus supposed to set the example and expect us to follow in his footsteps when he himself never did it himself. His fleshly spirit was praying to the God that was in him.

True, there are alot of scriptures that would support Trinitarianism. But when you inspect the other parts of the Bible closer you'll find that while Jesus talked in that way alot he also clarified it in other passages of scripture for anybody who got confused. Just like he said to Phillip.

Originally posted by Jury
Ei, debs. I also worship Jesus. I don't consider it heresy. 😎

John 14:9
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Phillip? He that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

What a rhetorical question, indeed.

Why is Phillip asking Jesus to show them the Father? Jesus have been so long time with them yet Phillip has still not known Him. Haven't Jesus been telling them that the Father is a spirit? And who can see a spirit anyway?

John 14:11
Believe me when I say that I am in the Father
and the Father is in me;
or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.

Punker, the exact same language about being "in" is used many times of Christians. When the same exact language is used both of Christ and of Christians, it needs to be understood the same way. We are "in" Christ, and Christ is "in" us. Read John 14:4-7; 17:21,23 and 26.

When used in the sense of "in God," or "in Christ," the word "in" refers to a close communion, or a tight fellowship. It was part of the covenant language of the day, when people spoke of being either "in" or "cut off from" the covenant.

If we say "We are in Christ", or "Christ is in us", would it mean that we are Christ Himself?

If we say "We are in God", or "God is in us", would it mean that we are God Himself?

🙂

I guess, you haven't known what glory does Jesus have from God?

Originally posted by debbiejo
Worshiping a another god besides the father????
What ever happend to "You shall have no other gods before me?"

Debs, I worship Jesus not because He is God.

I worship our Lord Jesus because that's what God commanded me to do. And who am I to question God who commanded it?

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Worshiping another god/person/or thing then when it goes against the 10 Commandments? OMG, you are so blasphemous...

Originally posted by Jury
Debs, I worship Jesus not because He is God.

I worship our Lord Jesus because that's what God commanded me to do. And who am I to question God who commanded it?

🙂

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Originally posted by debbiejo
Worshiping another god/person/or thing then when it goes against the 10 Commandments? OMG, you are so blasphemous...

Covenant, my dear debs.
Old covenant, old priesthood, old laws.
New covenant, new priesthood, new laws.
New acts of God's salvation.

This new covenant was promised by God.
And this was fufilled in Lord Jesus.

And part of this new convenant is that "every knee should bow down" to the only begotten Son. And this is a way to glorify the one and only true God - the Father.

🙂

With all these new laws and people constantly interpretting the bible HELL is going to have alot of previously vacant spots fill up rather quickly.

New covenant, new priesthood, new laws

Well, the old covenant will not be judged with the new covenant. Because "everyone who lived in the law will be judged with that [same] law".

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When Jesus came, the new priesthood also came. With new priesthood, comes new law. And "new law supercedes the old".

🙂