And when did I say "the old law was taken away"? Quote me on that.
Debbie, I acknowledge the laws of God in the Old Testament as Jesus Himself also acknowledge them. But when Jesus Christ came, God introduced the "new law" through Jesus Christ. And this is all about Salvation. The mystery of God's will in Christ Jesus.
I worship one God. And that is the Father. When He commanded us to worship Jesus, He didn't mean we should consider Jesus another God. Since worshiping Jesus is glorifying the Father Himself.
🙂
Originally posted by Jury
Be it known that when the Bible says that new law supercedes the old, it doesn't necessarily say that the old was taken away completely.Example of how the new law supercedes the old is the eating of meat of animals considered unclean yet were cleaned during the new covenant.
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✅ 🍺
Originally posted by JuryWell if the old laws were not taken away, then why worship anything other than the father, and also, do you keep the Sabbath? And where does it say it supercedes to where the old laws are now void?
Be it known that when the Bible says that new law supercedes the old, it doesn't necessarily say that the old was taken away completely.🙂
As in keeping all 10 of the commandments.
Originally posted by debbiejo
Well if the old laws were not taken away, then why worship anything other than the father, and also, do you keep the Sabbath? And where does it say it supercedes to where the old laws are now void?As in keeping all 10 of the commandments.
The Ten Commandments were given to God's first nation. The first nation had their law. They had God's covenant and promise. And indeed God commanded them not to worship no other gods. For there is only one God before them.
Jesus Himself quoted the 2 most important commandments from those 10. But this doesn't mean to take away the rest.
The New Covenant also stipulates righteous way of living.
Sabbath has already had different meaning in Christ's time. Observing Sabbath in His time onward is not necessary anymore (Colossians 2:16-17).
Again, it is God's commandment for Christians to worship Jesus (Philippians 2:9-11).
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Originally posted by JuryWell first your are getting the OT LAWS (Duet, and Lev.) mixed up with the LAW of the Ten Commandments. It is never stated that the 10 Commandments were void...
The Ten Commandments were given to God's first nation. The first nation had their law. They had God's covenant and promise. And indeed God commanded them not to worship no other gods. For there is only one God before them.Jesus Himself quoted the 2 most important commandments from those 10. But this doesn't mean to take away the rest.
The New Covenant also stipulates righteous way of living.
Sabbath has already had different meaning in Christ's time. Observing Sabbath in His time onward is not necessary anymore (Colossians 2:16-17).
Again, it is God's commandment for Christians to worship Jesus (Philippians 2:9-11).
🙂
Colossians 2:16-17 (New King James Version)
So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.
This has nothing to do with the 10 Commandments. It is referring to the what is called "Sabbath holy days" as in the their feasts days such as in Passover (Pesach), Unleavend Bread (Hag HaMatzah), Firstfruits (Yom HaBikkurim), Feast of Weeks (Shavuot) Feast of Trumpets (Rosh Hashanah), Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur) Tabernacles (Sukkoth),..These feast days were centered around the moon, food..etc.
Jesus stating the 2 Commandments are only summing up the 10 that were already in place.
1. Love god with all your heart and mind (1st 4 commandments)
2. Love others as yourself (last 6 commandments)
Nothing has changed in the Law of the 10. Are you keeping the Sabbath?
The Ten Commandments were given to God's first nationThis is a dispensationial view that was put in place in the 1800's. That means god saves people of different time periods in different ways...Like as in how did god save people of Noahs time as compared to Abraham, as to Moses, as compared to the Church Age. This would also be heresy to the scriptures that says "God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow"..."God changes NOT."
Again show me where the 10 commandments were voided out. Also, if there were to be a new covenant Jesus would have to have put it into place before his death. He did not. He followed all the commandments...
Phil. 2 9-11 was written by Paul, who is considered heretical in his teachings because it went against the OT and what Jesus also taught.
The Ten Commandments were mentioned long before they where given on Mt Sinai.
1. The First Commandment was known - Gen. 35:1-4.
2. The Second Commandment was known - Gen. 31:19,34,35; 35:2-4.
3. The Third Commandment was known - Lev.18:3,21,24,27.
4. The Fourth Commandment was known - Gen. 2:1-4; 8:10,12; 29:27,28;
Exodus 16:4,22,23,25-30.
5. The Fifth Commandment was known - Gen. 9:22-25.
6. The Sixth Commandment was known - Gen. 4:8-11,23,24; 9:5,6.
7. The Seventh Commandment was known - Gen. 20:5-9; 38:24; 39:7-9.
8. The Eighth Commandment was known - Gen. 30:33; 31:19,30,32,39; 44:8.
9. The Ninth Commandment was known - Gen. 39:7-20.
10. The Tenth Commandment had to be broken before the eighth commandment was broken.
Jesus also said these words,"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill." Mat. 5:17.
Fufill meaning to fill the law full of meaning and obedience and do for the law what no other human could do. Because no one ever obeyed all 613 commandments in the Law of Moses. Only Jesus. Once again he came to set an example.
Paul said it like this:
"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak in the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."-Romans 8:3-4
Thanks Deb for pointing out the fundamental scripture in this argument.
"For I am the Lord, I change not." Malachi 3:6
"Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, and to day, and forever." Hebrew 13:8
"My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips." Ps. 89:34.
Also even if you didn't want to obey the commandments. God mentioned around seven of them as teachings in the first part of Matthew. Even the rest fall into those few.
Also look at this passage of scripture. Where a rich man asked Jesus what he should do to be saved. He mentioned five of the ten commandments.
16(A)And someone came to Him and said, "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain (B)eternal life?"
17And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but (C)if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."
18Then he said to Him, "Which ones?" And Jesus said, "(D)YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER; YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY; YOU SHALL NOT STEAL; YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS;
19(E)HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER; and (F)YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
Jesus never came to get rid of the law but like it was prophesied of Jesus in Isaiah
"He will magnify the law, and make it honorable." Is.42:21.
Just read what Jesus said after he said he came to fulfill the law.
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one iota or one letter shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever shall break one of the least of these commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." Mat.5:17-20.
of course this whole debate can be summed up by the first verse of Genesis.
1 IN the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
The word God is interesting here. In hebrew its Elohim or Eloheim. The funny thing is that the -him or -heim suffix is used in hebrew to denote a plurality. The singular would be El or Eli.
From the beginning the plurality of God is in the bible. Oh an argument can be made that its a plurality of power or glory, but it's simpler to view it as a plurality in the Godhead, especially in light of what is said a few verses later "let us make man in our own image" (emphasis added). It could be the royal we, but in light of the plurality used earlier. I think it more likely its more like a commander or a leader saying, "let's get to it". Us in this case seems on casual and closer inspection to mean just what it usually means. More than one being was present.
Originally posted by debbiejo
How's that true..........Me and my mother are not the same person....Now that IS plain logic..... 🙄
* well, you are both humans... i suppose... am i right? 😉
* an offspring of an animal is an animal... an offspring of a human is a human... an offspring of a God, is also a God... THIS is plain logic... 😉
Originally posted by docb77
of course this whole debate can be summed up by the first verse of Genesis.1 IN the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
The word God is interesting here. In hebrew its Elohim or Eloheim. The funny thing is that the -him or -heim suffix is used in hebrew to denote a plurality. The singular would be El or Eli.
How can the word "in" be used in the plural sense. Can you expand on that.
Originally posted by docb77
but it's simpler to view it as a plurality in the Godhead,
But I thought Clossians 2:9 said that "For in him (Jesus Christ) dwelleth the fulness of the Godhead bodily" Doesn't really seem like three seperate persons to me.
Originally posted by docb77
especially in light of what is said a few verses later "let us make man in our own image" (emphasis added). It could be the royal we, but in light of the plurality used earlier. I think it more likely its more like a commander or a leader saying, "let's get to it". Us in this case seems on casual and closer inspection to mean just what it usually means. More than one being was present.
Did you happen to skip the next verse, Genesis 1:27-"So God made man in His own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
The "let's" is called the Plurality of Majesties. He wasn't speaking to three seperate beings but merely saying to himself "let's". Just like everyone has said to themselves before.
Originally posted by Punker69
How can the word "in" be used in the plural sense. Can you expand on that.
I never said that in was plural. I said that the hebrew word that was translated "God" was plural.
Originally posted by Punker69
But I thought Clossians 2:9 said that "For in him (Jesus Christ) dwelleth the fulness of the Godhead bodily" Doesn't really seem like three seperate persons to me.
And that couldn't possibly mean that the full authority of the Godhead rested in his person (body) whether the Godhead was made up of 1, 3, or a million persons. The real question there is the meaning of the word fulness.
Originally posted by Punker69
Did you happen to skip the next verse, Genesis 1:27-"So God made man in His own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.The "let's" is called the Plurality of Majesties. He wasn't speaking to three seperate beings but merely saying to himself "let's". Just like everyone has said to themselves before.
And if all 3 beings had the same image their creation wouldn't be in the image of 1 of them as much as all 3?
Originally posted by docb77
I never said that in was plural. I said that the hebrew word that was translated "God" was plural.
Show me proof.
Originally posted by docb77
And that couldn't possibly mean that the full authority of the Godhead rested in his person (body) whether the Godhead was made up of 1, 3, or a million persons. The real question there is the meaning of the word fulness.
While your showing me how exactly God was originally plural why dont you show me why the word "fullness" would mean anything other than what it obviously does mean.
Originally posted by docb77
And if all 3 beings had the same image their creation wouldn't be in the image of 1 of them as much as all 3?
Um..exactly. If we are made in the image of three people or three seperate persons which is what the Trinitarian doctrine states then where's our other 2 persons?
I dont know about you but when I got up and looked in the mirror I saw a person staring back at me. Not three.
Originally posted by Punker69
Um..exactly. If we are made in the image of three people or three seperate persons which is what the Trinitarian doctrine states then where's our other 2 persons?I dont know about you but when I got up and looked in the mirror I saw a person staring back at me. Not three.
If this is the case, then why do you say "let us" instead of "let me" in reference to yourself:
Originally posted by Punker69
The "let's" is called the Plurality of Majesties. He wasn't speaking to three seperate beings but merely saying to himself "let's". Just like everyone has said to themselves before.