The Doctrine of One God

Originally posted by docb77
Sorry,We must have had a misunderstanding. I never argued for a compound deity. I thought that article captured the gist of the word well, I didn't really agree with their conclusions however. I actually was saying that there was more than one person(although divine persons) there when they said, "let us make man in our own image.)

I don't doubt that languages adapt over time, and perhaps that happened with the word in question. But given what I understand of the context, this does seem to be plural to me.

That's why I quoted you on your first post. Because you were saying that ELOHIM denotes plurality. Your information is incomplete when you say it that way. That's why I made a correction that ELOHIM is used both singular and plural in the Bible.

As to the case of Genesis 1:26, the use of the plural is for amplification, and is called a "plural of majesty" or a "plural of emphasis," and is used for intensification as what the great Hebrew scholar Gesenius said. Many Hebrew scholars identify this use of "us" and "our" as the use of the plural of majesty or plural of emphasis. And this usage is found in some parts of the Bible.

🙂

Originally posted by peejayd
* yes, the Father Almighty is God... His Son, Christ is also a God... 😉

And which is the TRUE one?

And which is the false one that everyone worships?

And where are the answers to my questions? 🙂

Originally posted by Jury
That's why I quoted you on your first post. Because you were saying that ELOHIM denotes plurality. Your information is incomplete when you say it that way. That's why I made a correction that ELOHIM is used both singular and plural in the Bible.

As to the case of [b]Genesis 1:26, the use of the plural is for amplification, and is called a "plural of majesty" or a "plural of emphasis," and is used for intensification as what the great Hebrew scholar Gesenius said. Many Hebrew scholars identify this use of "us" and "our" as the use of the plural of majesty or plural of emphasis. And this usage is found in some parts of the Bible.

🙂 [/B]

I accept that Elohim Jehovah is like that, but in the first few verses it uses the word Elohim alone. That would seem to be plural. The gods (elohim) created the world with the LORD (Elohim Jehovah) being chief among them and the only one we should worship.

Oh, and in the first post I was more referring to the -him suffix. That is a plural, just like an -s or -es ending is in english.

So perhaps the way it should be seen is more like another phrase from elsewhere in the bible. "king of kings, lord of lords" Maybe using elohim in the singular is like saying God of gods.

By the way, the word Elohim is the only word I've actually seen much discussion on. Anyone happen to know how the verbs attached to it are conjugated - singular? plural?

Originally posted by Jury
And which is the TRUE one?

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God , and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."
John 17:3

* God the Father is a true God... 😉

"And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God , and eternal life."
I John 5:20

* Christ is also a true God... 😉

Originally posted by docb77
I accept that Elohim Jehovah is like that, but in the first few verses it uses the word Elohim alone. That would seem to be plural. The gods (elohim) created the world with the LORD (Elohim Jehovah) being chief among them and the only one we should worship.

Oh, and in the first post I was more referring to the -him suffix. That is a plural, just like an -s or -es ending is in english.

So perhaps the way it should be seen is more like another phrase from elsewhere in the bible. "king of kings, lord of lords" Maybe using elohim in the singular is like saying God of gods.

By the way, the word Elohim is the only word I've actually seen much discussion on. Anyone happen to know how the verbs attached to it are conjugated - singular? plural?

As what I have contended above, ELOHIM doesn't only appear plural in the Bible. It also appears as singular. Now, ELOHIM in the verse you cited is referring to God. Pagans only believed in one Baal, one Dagon, and one Chemosh. Hebrews also believed there's only one Moses. And throughout the Bible, God is ONLY one. One in number. It is understandable therefore that when ELOHIM is referring to a single person only, it is understood as singular.

Now, the ELOHIM in Genesis 1:26 is referring to the Creator - the Father - the ONLY true God. Thus, the use of ELOHIM in Genesis 1:26 is singular.

That's why you can also notice the SINGULAR pronouns used in succeeding verses.

So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God created he him;
male and female created he them.
Genesis 1:27

Clearly, docb77... The ELOHIM who created man is only one person and should be considered singular. And the plural pronouns used in the Genesis 1:26, according to the great Hebrew scholar Gesenius is used for intensification as common to other parts of the Bible.

🙂

Originally posted by peejayd
"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God , and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."
John 17:3

* God the Father is a true God... 😉

May I quote the verse again?

And this is eternal life,
that they may know You, the only true God,
and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
John 17:3
New King James Version

You missed to emphasize the only. So how do you understand the phrase "the only true God"?

The adjective "only" there doesn't change it's meaning. It only means one thing:

only adj : the single person or thing: used to indicate the single person or thing involved in a situation
Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2003.
© 1993-2002 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

True. The Father is the ONLY true God. Aside from Him there is no other.

Originally posted by peejayd
"And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God , and eternal life."
I John 5:20

* Christ is also a true God... 😉

Your emphasis is wrong. Understand the context, friend.
I'll show you the correct emphasis.

And we know that the Son of God has come
and has given us an understanding,
that we may know Him who is true;
and we are in Him who is true,
in His Son Jesus Christ.
This is the true God and eternal life.
I John 5:20
New King James Version

See? Jesus Christ came to give us understanding. Understanding what? Understanding what eternal life is. And this eternal life is knowing who the only true God is. How did Jesus introduced us this understanding?

I may quote the verse again.

And this is eternal life,
that they may know You, the only true God,
and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
John 17:3
New King James Version

Truly. The Father ALONE is true God.

🙂

Hey jury,

Just out of curiosity, Do you actually know Hebrew? Or are you like me just going by what other people have said?

Just wondering.

Originally posted by docb77
Hey jury,

Just out of curiosity, Do you actually know Hebrew? Or are you like me just going by what other people have said?

Just wondering.

Not necessarily, docb77.

I don't need to be a scientist to learn science.
I don't need to be a mathematician to learn mathematics.
I don't need to be a linguistic to learn all languages.

Concerning religious matters, I've studied what books can offer, what scholars have said, what prophets have preached, what history has protrayed and what studies have conveyed. Every side is important before making conclusions.

And I'm going, taking, and considering those that make sense, logical, and sound biblical.

🙂

Originally posted by Jury
May I quote the verse again?

And this is eternal life,
that they may know You, the only true God,
and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
[B]John 17:3
New King James Version

You missed to emphasize the only. So how do you understand the phrase "the only true God"?

The adjective "only" there doesn't change it's meaning. It only means one thing:

True. The Father is the ONLY true God. Aside from Him there is no other.[/B]

* so let us understand the context, bro... why is God the Father is the ONLY true God as Christ had said...

"These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven , and said, Father , the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:"
John 17:1

* Christ lifted his eyes to heaven... there really is ONLY one true God in the heavens... because the other God was on earth, and that God is Christ... Christ came here on earth... 😉

Originally posted by Jury
Your emphasis is wrong. Understand the context, friend.
I'll show you the correct emphasis.

And we know that the Son of God has come
and has given us an understanding,
that we may know Him who is true;
and we are in Him who is true,
in His Son Jesus Christ.
This is the true God and eternal life.
[b]I John 5:20
New King James Version

See? Jesus Christ came to give us understanding. Understanding what? Understanding what eternal life is. And this eternal life is knowing who the only true God is. How did Jesus introduced us this understanding? [/B]

* let us read:

"And we know that the Son of God is come , and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life ."
I John 5:20

* see? Christ came here on earth...

* now, let us conform to Saint John who is this "eternal life" he was talking about...

"(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us 😉"
I John 1:2

* who is that "eternal life"? that "eternal life" was with the Father and was manifested unto us... He is Christ, bro... 😉

Originally posted by Jury
I may quote the verse again.

And this is eternal life,
that they may know You, the only true God,
and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
[B]John 17:3
New King James Version

Truly. The Father ALONE is true God.

🙂 [/B]

* the Father is not alone...

"And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was .
Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world ."
John 17:5, 24

* Christ was with the Father even before the foundation of the world... 😉

* the Son of God is also a God... 😉

Originally posted by Jury
Not necessarily, docb77.

I don't need to be a scientist to learn science.
I don't need to be a mathematician to learn mathematics.
I don't need to be a linguistic to learn all languages.

Concerning religious matters, I've studied what books can offer, what scholars have said, what prophets have preached, what history has protrayed and what studies have conveyed. Every side is important before making conclusions.

And I'm going, taking, and considering those that make sense, logical, and sound biblical.

🙂

😕

Was that a yes or a no? I learned the hebrew Aleph-bet once. But that was as far as I got really, so like I think you were saying I'm just going off what I read too.

Originally posted by peejayd
* yes, the Father Almighty is God... His Son, Christ is also a God... 😉

Just a little surprised; that is not very main stream Christian like. 😄

Originally posted by peejayd
* so let us understand the context, bro... why is God the Father is the ONLY true God as Christ had said...

"These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven , and said, Father , the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:"
John 17:1

* Christ lifted his eyes to heaven... there really is ONLY one true God in the heavens... because the other God was on earth, and that God is Christ... Christ came here on earth... 😉

Jesus statement is very clear. He's not saying that the Father is the only true God in heavens. He is saying that the Father ALONE is the true God. Whether in heavens or in earth or in the sea under the earth, the Father ALONE is the true God. Other than Him, there is no other true God.

Jesus is the true God on earth. Where in the Bible does it say that?

Originally posted by peejayd
* let us read:

"And we know that the Son of God is come , and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life ."
I John 5:20

You're trying to avoid the context, friend. What made you think that the last statement of the verse refers to Jesus Christ? It is so obvious that it refers directly to God.

The Son of God gave us understanding that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Very clear, friend, the last statement is referring to none other than the Father.

Originally posted by peejayd * see? Christ came here on earth...

* now, let us conform to Saint John who is this "eternal life" he was talking about...

"(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us 😉"
I John 1:2

* who is that "eternal life"? that "eternal life" was with the Father and was manifested unto us... He is Christ, bro... 😉

Sorry. What you have there in the passage is your plain assumption. There was no mention that Christ is the true God. The verse is simply saying that "eternal life" is with God. Let us not forget that eternal life denotes salvation. And this salvation is only with God.

It is not a question of who that eternal life is. The contention I had earlier is that UNDERSTANDING WHAT ETERNAL LIFE IS. And that is by knowing the Father to be the ONLY TRUE GOD.

I would also like to emphasize that understanding eternal life is not only knowing the Father as the ONLY true God but also knowing Jesus Christ as the one sent by God.

Originally posted by peejayd
* the Father is not alone...

"And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was .
Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world ."
John 17:5, 24

* Christ was with the Father even before the foundation of the world... 😉

The Father is not alone. Alone in what manner, friend?
Jesus is saying that the Father ALONE is the true God. And that is my contention.

John 17:5, 24. The "existence" of Christ before the foundation of the world is not a question, peejayd. But did He exist literally as a person and separate from God and as God? There is no just evidence to that. If you insist that Jesus existed literally before the world began, would you also admit that we, as God's people, existed before the time began?

Peejayd, God's people had given grace from God before the time had begun. The glory of Christ which He had before the foundation of the world is what Jesus is praying for to be fulfilled and manifested.

Originally posted by peejayd
* the Son of God is also a God... 😉

Proclaimed by whom?

🙂

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Just a little surprised; that is not very main stream Christian like. 😄

* Christ is a God... even the apostles of Christ acknowledge Him as a God... 😉

"And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God ."
John 20:28

Originally posted by docb77
😕

Was that a yes or a no? I learned the hebrew Aleph-bet once. But that was as far as I got really, so like I think you were saying I'm just going off what I read too.

And what have you read? That ELOHIM is used only as plural?

See? docb77, we don't just rely on what we have learned on our own, and what we already knew in the past. We focus on the word ELOHIM alone. And we don't need to study the whole Hebrew language to understand what ELOHIM is. We have experts, we have grammarians, we have lexicons to help us do that. And how can we determine if they are telling us the correct information?

Compare. That's what the Bible itself is suggesting.

That's why I gave you Genesis 1:27. You were insisting that ELOHIM in Genesis 1:26 is plural, this will contradict the succeeding verse.

Friend, the laws of Moses, the books of prophets, the psalms of David, the gospels, and the epistles are not contradictory. Like Science and Religion. They actually don't. Harmony exists everywhere. We just cannot grasp it.

🙂

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Just a little surprised; that is not very main stream Christian like. 😄

I'ts not new actually. Jehovah's Witnesses do so.

* and i'm not a member of jehova's witnesses...

Obviously. 🙂

Originally posted by Jury
Jesus statement is very clear. He's not saying that the Father is the only true God in heavens. [b]He is saying that the Father ALONE is the true God. Whether in heavens or in earth or in the sea under the earth, the Father ALONE is the true God. Other than Him, there is no other true God.

Jesus is the true God on earth. Where in the Bible does it say that? [/B]

* the context is clear, Christ was talking about the Father, the only true God in the heavens... i'm not saying that God is not a God on earth or in the seas... i said, Christ stated that there is only one true God in the heavens as Christ lifted up His eyes... 😉

* I John 5:20 affirms that Christ is a true God who came here on earth... 😉

Originally posted by Jury
You're trying to avoid the context, friend. [b]What made you think that the last statement of the verse refers to Jesus Christ? It is so obvious that it refers directly to God.

The Son of God gave us understanding that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Very clear, friend, the last statement is referring to none other than the Father.[/B]

* the verse refers to Christ...

"And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God , and eternal life."
I John 5:20

* Christ is a true God... 😉

Originally posted by Jury
Sorry. What you have there in the passage is your plain assumption. There was no mention that Christ is the true God. The verse is simply saying that "eternal life" is with God. Let us not forget that eternal life denotes salvation. And this salvation is only with God.

It is not a question of who that eternal life is. The contention I had earlier is that UNDERSTANDING WHAT ETERNAL LIFE IS. And that is by knowing the Father to be the ONLY TRUE GOD.

I would also like to emphasize that understanding eternal life is not only knowing the Father as the ONLY true God but also knowing Jesus Christ as the one sent by God.

* the verse should also conform with the entirety of the book... or should we say, the context... in I John 5:20, we have read that the true God mentioned is also the eternal life... so by reading I John 1:2, we can now know who is that eternal life, and the true God being aforementioned by Saint John... 😉

"(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us ; )"
I John 1:2

* the eternal life mentioned was with the Father, and was manifested unto us... 😉

"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh , justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world , received up into glory."
I Timothy 3:16

* Christ is that eternal life, Saint John had mentioned... and as stated by Saint Paul, Christ is a God manifested in the flesh... 😉

Originally posted by Jury
The Father is not alone. Alone in what manner, friend?
Jesus is saying that the Father ALONE is the true God. And that is my contention.

"I and my Father are one."
John 10:30

* Christ Himself said, He is a God... 😉

Originally posted by Jury
John 17:5, 24. The "existence" of Christ before the foundation of the world is not a question, peejayd. [b]But did He exist literally as a person and separate from God and as God? There is no just evidence to that. If you insist that Jesus existed literally before the world began, would you also admit that we, as God's people, existed before the time began?

Peejayd, God's people had given grace from God before the time had begun. The glory of Christ which He had before the foundation of the world is what Jesus is praying for to be fulfilled and manifested.[/B]

* Christ exists then as The Word, and as The Wisdom...

"In the beginning was the Word , and the Word was with God, and the Word was God ."
John 1:1

"But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory :"
I Corinthians 2:7

Originally posted by Jury
Proclaimed by whom?

🙂

* by the apostles, by the prophets... more importantly, by Christ Himself, and the Father... 😉