Originally posted by peejayd
* Christ is a God... even the apostles of Christ acknowledge Him as a God... 😉"And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God ."
John 20:28
Again you quote from the bible to me. You don't understand, the words you just quoted, to me, did not say what you said they did.
We are all part of God.
Originally posted by peejayd
* to YOU, the verse i quoted did not say what i say it did... to YOU... and that's YOUR opinion... 😉
Sorry but the sentence didn't quite make sense to me, but I think I understand.
It is not only my point of view. We all form opinions based upon the type of knowledge that we have. I have studied both Christianity and Buddhism, and I have found that sense I studied Christianity first, now when I read the bible, my way of thinking about what is being said is different that what it used to be.
Originally posted by peejayd
* the context is clear, Christ was talking about the Father, the only true God in the heavens... i'm not saying that God is not a God on earth or in the seas... i said, Christ stated that there is only one true God in the heavens as Christ lifted up His eyes... 😉* I John 5:20 affirms that Christ is a true God who came here on earth... 😉
Again, Jesus is not saying that the Father is the only true God in heavens ALONE. God is God of everything. Jesus's statement is very clear, concise, and definite.
The Father is the ONLY true God.
Originally posted by peejayd
* the verse refers to Christ..."And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God , and eternal life."
I John 5:20* Christ is a true God... 😉
...even in his Son Jesus Christ.
This is the true God, and eternal life.
Are you saying that the pronoun "This" refers to Christ and not to the Father? What is your basis, friend?
Originally posted by peejayd
* the verse should also conform with the entirety of the book... or should we say, the context... in I John 5:20, we have read that the true God mentioned is also the eternal life... so by reading I John 1:2, we can now know who is that eternal life, and the true God being aforementioned by Saint John... 😉"(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us ; )"
I John 1:2* the eternal life mentioned was with the Father, and was manifested unto us... 😉
"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh , justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world , received up into glory."
I Timothy 3:16
Read my responses again. You simply cannot absorb them.
I Timothy 3:16
Do you understand the message conveyed in I Timothy 3:16? Can you elaborate it further?
Originally posted by peejayd
* Christ is that eternal life, Saint John had mentioned... and as stated by Saint Paul, Christ is a God manifested in the flesh... 😉"I and my Father are one."
John 10:30* Christ Himself said, He is a God... 😉
I and my Father are one.
One what? One God? No evidence. Your drawing your own conclusion.
Or are you saying that Jesus and His Father are just one and the same person? Obviously no, because you're saying that they are two in number, thus, two Gods.
So, what is your contention in using this statement? "I and my Father are one."
Originally posted by peejayd
* Christ exists then as The Word, and as The Wisdom..."In the beginning was the Word , and the Word was with God, and the Word was God ."
John 1:1
How sure are you that the "Word" there in John 1:1 refers directly and/or literally to Jesus Christ Himself? Do you know how many times the word "LOGOS" was used in the Scriptures? I hope you do.
Originally posted by peejayd
"But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory :"
I Corinthians 2:7
There's no problem with that. Jesus is the wisdom of God. It doesn't make or confirm that Jesus Christ HIMSELF is with God in the beginning.
Originally posted by peejayd
* by the apostles, by the prophets... more importantly, by Christ Himself, and the Father... 😉
So, tell me, friend. If Jesus Christ is ALSO a true God, what kind of Godship does He have? Is the Bible really telling us that there are two Gods to believe in?
🙂
Originally posted by Jury
Again, Jesus is not saying that the Father is the only true God in heavens ALONE. God is God of everything. Jesus's statement is very clear, concise, and definite.The Father is the ONLY true God.
* the ONLY Begotten Son of God is also a God... the Son of God is also a God... 😉
* Christ was begotten by the Father, Christ was given birth by the Father... the Son of the Father is also a God... 😉
Originally posted by Jury
...even in his Son Jesus Christ.
[b]This is the true God, and eternal life.Are you saying that the pronoun "This" refers to Christ and not to the Father? What is your basis, friend?
Read my responses again. You simply cannot absorb them.
[/B]
* sorry, bro... it is YOU who simply cannot absorb what i'm saying... you cannot refute the fact that the "eternal life" Saint John was talking about is Christ Himself... 😉
Originally posted by Jury
[b]I Timothy 3:16Do you understand the message conveyed in I Timothy 3:16? Can you elaborate it further?[/B]
* Christ was a God manifested in the flesh... the human part of Christ is His flesh... but in that human flesh, dwells the fullness of Godhead... 😉
Originally posted by Jury
[b]I and my Father are one.One what? One God? No evidence. Your drawing your own conclusion.
Or are you saying that Jesus and His Father are just one and the same person? Obviously no, because you're saying that they are two in number, thus, two Gods.So, what is your contention in using this statement? "I and my Father are one." [/B]
* i think the Jews understood what Christ meant...
"The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God ."
John 10:33
* the enemies of Christ believe that He was a human... but to those who really knew Christ, they know Christ is a God... 😉
Originally posted by Jury
[b]How sure are you that the "Word" there in John 1:1 refers directly and/or literally to Jesus Christ Himself? Do you know how many times the word "LOGOS" was used in the Scriptures? I hope you do.[/B]
"And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God ."
Revelation 19:13
* the Word is Christ Himself... 😉
Originally posted by Jury
There's no problem with that. Jesus is the wisdom of God. It doesn't make or confirm that Jesus Christ HIMSELF is with God in the beginning.
* now that's a very blatant misconception...
"And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was .
Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world ."
John 17:5, 24
* it is very biased of you to accept John 17:3 as clear, concise and definite... yet the succeeding verses such as verse 5 and 24, are not?
* Christ is with the Father in the beginning... the Father had given glory to Christ before the world was... the Father had loved Christ before the foundation of the world... They are with each other... 😉
Originally posted by Jury
So, tell me, friend. If Jesus Christ is ALSO a true God, what kind of Godship does He have? Is the Bible really telling us that there are two Gods to believe in?
🙂
"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ ;"
Titus 2:13
"Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ :"
II Peter 1:1
* according to Saint Paul and Saint Peter, Christ is our God and Saviour... 😉
Originally posted by peejayd
* the ONLY Begotten Son of God is also a God... the Son of God is also a God... 😉* Christ was begotten by the Father, Christ was given birth by the Father... the Son of the Father is also a God... 😉
Or shall we say half-God, half-Man?
Originally posted by peejayd
* sorry, bro... it is YOU who simply cannot absorb what i'm saying... you cannot refute the fact that the "eternal life" Saint John was talking about is Christ Himself... 😉
You are not answering my question.
Originally posted by peejayd
* Christ was a God manifested in the flesh... the human part of Christ is His flesh... but in that human flesh, dwells the fullness of Godhead... 😉
God manifested in the flesh? Are you sure with that?
KAI OMOLOGOUMENWS MEGA EZTIN TO THS EUSEBEIAS MUSTHRION [COLOR=red]OS EFANERWQH EN SARKI EDIKAIWQH EN IINEUMATI WFQH AGGELOIS EKHRUCQH EN EQNESIN EPISTEUQH EN KOSMW ANELHMFQH EN DOXH[/COLOR]
I Timothy 3:16
Ever familiar with the uncials? The most ancient and earliest manuscripts unearthed? So who told you that OS there should be translated as "God" instead of "He who"? If it were "God" it should have written as THEOS not HOS or HO.
"HE WHO" is supported by the earliest and best uncials. THEOS appeared earlier than the eighth or ninth century; all ancient versions presuppose HOS or HO ["he who" or "he"]; The reading THEOS arose either (a) accidentally, or (b) deliberately, either to supply a substantive for the following six verbs [the six verbs that follow in the verse], or, with less probability, to provide greater dogmatic precision [i.e., to produce a verse that more clearly supports the Trinitarian position.
Thus, some English versions made it into an unbiased translation.
Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great:
He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit,
was seen by angels, was preached among the nations,
was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:16
New International Version
By common confession great is the mystery of godliness:
He who was revealed in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit,
Beheld by angels, Proclaimed among the nations,
Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory
1 Timothy 3:16
New American Standard Bible
This section of Scripture beautifully portrays an overview of Christ's life and accomplishments. It all fits with what we know of the man, Jesus Christ.
With all these, the reading: "God manifested in the flesh" is inaccurate.
Originally posted by peejayd
* i think the Jews understood what Christ meant..."The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God ."
John 10:33
Again, you did not answer my question. What is your contention upon using the verse John 10:30?
"I and my Father are one". What made you think that by this statement you conclude that Jesus is ALSO the true God? Jesus was simply saying that He and His Father are one.
Originally posted by peejayd
* the enemies of Christ believe that He was a human... but to those who really knew Christ, they know Christ is a God... 😉
So didn't Christ refute those Jews who thought that with that statement, Jesus is claiming to be God?
Originally posted by peejayd
"And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God ."
Revelation 19:13* the Word is Christ Himself... 😉
That's why I asked you: Do you know how many times the word LOGOS appeared in the Scriptures? How can we determine then if that LOGOS refers to Christ Himself and not its real meaning?
Originally posted by peejayd
* now that's a very blatant misconception..."And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was .
Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world ."
John 17:5, 24* it is very biased of you to accept John 17:3 as clear, concise and definite... yet the succeeding verses such as verse 5 and 24, are not?
* Christ is with the Father in the beginning... the Father had given glory to Christ before the world was... the Father had loved Christ before the foundation of the world... They are with each other... 😉
Again, the "existence" of Christ before the foundation of the world is not a question. For we, the people of God also "existed" before the time begun. Now, in what sense did Christ and we "existed" before the foundation of the earth? If you believe that Jesus Himself literally existed before the foundation of the world, you must also believe that the people of God whom He had given grace existed literally before the time begun.
Peejayd, I believe that we all "existed" before the foundation of the earth. But it is not necessary that we are there already existing as our own selves. The same case with Christ for He was "foreknown" [Gk. PROGINOSKO] before the world begun. Friend, you cannot PROGINOSKO something or somebody who is already and literally existing.
Originally posted by peejayd
"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ ;"
Titus 2:13"Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ :"
II Peter 1:1* according to Saint Paul and Saint Peter, Christ is our God and Saviour... 😉
It is the opening verse of the epistle, and reading all of the epistles will show that it is customary in the New Testament to introduce both God and Christ at the opening of each one. When Scripture refers to "our Great God and Savior, Jesus Christ," it can mean two beings - both the "Great God," and the "Savior," Jesus Christ.
🙂
Originally posted by Jury
And what have you read? That ELOHIM is used only as plural?See? docb77, we don't just rely on what we have learned on our own, and what we already knew in the past. We focus on the word ELOHIM alone. And we don't need to study the whole Hebrew language to understand what ELOHIM is. We have experts, we have grammarians, we have lexicons to help us do that. And how can we determine if they are telling us the correct information?
Compare. That's what the Bible itself is suggesting.
That's why I gave you [b]Genesis 1:27
. You were insisting that ELOHIM in Genesis 1:26 is plural, this will contradict the succeeding verse.Friend, the laws of Moses, the books of prophets, the psalms of David, the gospels, and the epistles are not contradictory. Like Science and Religion. They actually don't. Harmony exists everywhere. We just cannot grasp it.
🙂 [/B]
I find it a little funny that you keep the debate going when all I did was ask a simple question. but ok....
I don't think the actual word elohim actually ever came up during the short time I had in that class before I dropped it. The -him ending I think did, and it is plural. just like the -s or -es ending in english.
I don't see the contradiction in taking verse 26 as a possible plurality and 27 as a single. If a General wer to say let us go conquer those guys, and then someone said General so and so conquered those guys - well, not a contradiction, just a different way of saying something, perhaps from a different point of view.
I also disagree that we can't grasp the harmony that exists in the places you mentioned. (Maybe this is semantics too) It would be better to say that sometimes we need God's help to do so.
If there's any consolation, you have convinced me that it can be used in reference to a single entity, just not that it does in this instance.
Originally posted by Jury
Or shall we say half-God, half-Man?
* nope... the human part of Christ is only His body... Christ is a God manifested in the flesh... 😉
Originally posted by Jury
God manifested in the flesh? Are you sure with that?KAI OMOLOGOUMENWS MEGA EZTIN TO THS EUSEBEIAS MUSTHRION [COLOR=red][B]OS
EFANERWQH EN SARKI EDIKAIWQH EN IINEUMATI WFQH AGGELOIS EKHRUCQH EN EQNESIN EPISTEUQH EN KOSMW ANELHMFQH EN DOXH[/COLOR]
I Timothy 3:16Ever familiar with the uncials? The most ancient and earliest manuscripts unearthed? So who told you that OS there should be translated as "God" instead of "He who"? If it were "God" it should have written as THEOS not HOS or HO.
"HE WHO" is supported by the earliest and best uncials. THEOS appeared earlier than the eighth or ninth century; all ancient versions presuppose HOS or HO ["he who" or "he"]; The reading THEOS arose either (a) accidentally, or (b) deliberately, either to supply a substantive for the following six verbs [the six verbs that follow in the verse], or, with less probability, to provide greater dogmatic precision [i.e., to produce a verse that more clearly supports the Trinitarian position.
Thus, some English versions made it into an unbiased translation.
This section of Scripture beautifully portrays an overview of Christ's life and accomplishments. It all fits with what we know of the man, Jesus Christ.
With all these, the reading: "God manifested in the flesh" is inaccurate.[/B]
"But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
And being found in fashion as a man , he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."
Philippians 2:7-8
* Christ took the form of a servant, made in the likeness of men and was found in fashion as a man... but what is the nature of Christ?
"Who, being in the form of God , thought it not robbery to be equal with God:"
Philippians 2:6
* Christ was in the form of God... He was not in the form of a servant nor in the form of a human... He was in the form of God... 😉
Originally posted by Jury
[b]Again, you did not answer my question. What is your contention upon using the verse John 10:30?"I and my Father are one". What made you think that by this statement you conclude that Jesus is ALSO the true God? Jesus was simply saying that He and His Father are one.
So didn't Christ refute those Jews who thought that with that statement, Jesus is claiming to be God?[/B]
* i have answered your question...
"The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God ."
John 10:33
* still, the enemies of Christ believe He was just a mere human pretending to be a God... so are you saying, the enemies of Christ were correct? 😕
Originally posted by Jury
That's why I asked you: [b]Do you know how many times the word LOGOS appeared in the Scriptures? How can we determine then if that LOGOS refers to Christ Himself and not its real meaning? [/B]
"And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God ."
Revelation 19:13
* you can't refute the fact that Christ is the Word... 😉
Originally posted by Jury
Again, the "existence" of Christ before the foundation of the world is not a question. For we, the people of God also "existed" before the time begun. [b]Now, in what sense did Christ and we "existed" before the foundation of the earth? If you believe that Jesus Himself literally existed before the foundation of the world, you must also believe that the people of God whom He had given grace existed literally before the time begun.Peejayd, I believe that we all "existed" before the foundation of the earth. But it is not necessary that we are there already existing as our own selves. The same case with Christ for He was "foreknown" [Gk. PROGINOSKO] before the world begun. Friend, you cannot PROGINOSKO something or somebody who is already and literally existing.[/B]
"But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory :"
I Corinthians 2:7
* Christ existed before the world was created... 😉
Originally posted by Jury
It is the opening verse of the epistle, and reading all of the epistles will show that it is customary in the New Testament to introduce both God and Christ at the opening of each one. When Scripture refers to "our Great God and Savior, Jesus Christ," it can mean two beings - both the "Great God," and the "Savior," Jesus Christ.🙂
* Titus 2:13 is not an opening verse... 😉
"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ ;"
Titus 2:13
* can God the Father be seen or will appear to be seen?
"No man hath seen God at any time ; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."
John 1:18
"Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see : to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen."
I Timothy 6:16
* no man had seen the Father, and no man can see the Father... it is Christ who will appear, and He is the great God and Saviour Saint Paul is talking about in Titus 2:13... 😉
Originally posted by peejayd
* nope... the human part of Christ is only His body... Christ is a God manifested in the flesh... 😉
So partly human, and partly God?
And oh, you missed this one.
Originally posted by Jury
...even in his Son Jesus Christ.
[b]This is the true God, and eternal life.Are you saying that the pronoun "This" refers to Christ and not to the Father? What is your basis, friend?[/b]
Originally posted by peejayd
"But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
And being found in fashion as a man , he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."
Philippians 2:7-8* Christ took the form of a servant, made in the likeness of men and was found in fashion as a man... but what is the nature of Christ?
"Who, being in the form of God , thought it not robbery to be equal with God:"
Philippians 2:6* Christ was in the form of God... He was not in the form of a servant nor in the form of a human... He was in the form of God... 😉
You quoted first the I Timothy 3:16 and I presented you the FACTS about the inaccuracies in its translation which you apparently haven't taken into account, yet you didn't even acknowledged, therefore it only shows that the said verse is useless to prove your point.
And that is why you're quoting another verses. But I'll consider that. I'll make a separate post about that.
Originally posted by peejayd
* i have answered your question...
No you didn't. You quoted John 10:30 as "I and my Father are one". So asked you: One what?. You were saying there two true Gods, yet you're using John 10:30 to say that they are one. Now, they are one. One in what manner, peejayd?
Originally posted by peejayd
"The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God ."
John 10:33
Can you go on with the succeeding verses, please?
Originally posted by peejayd
* still, the enemies of Christ believe He was just a mere human pretending to be a God... so are you saying, the enemies of Christ were correct? 😕
I thought you were the one who told me that "enemies of Christ" UNDERSTOOD what He is saying?
Originally posted by peejayd
* i think the Jews understood what Christ meant...
Now, what, friend?
Originally posted by peejayd
"And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God ."
Revelation 19:13* you can't refute the fact that Christ is the Word... 😉
I am not denying the truth that He is. The Bible also is the Word of God.
The truth is, LOGOS was found more than 300 hundred times in the Bible. LOGOS has different meanings and usage, and Jesus, Christ, and Messiah, are not included as one of its meanings.
Now, how sure are you that the LOGOS in John 1:1 is Jesus Christ Himself?
Originally posted by peejayd
"But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory :"
I Corinthians 2:7* Christ existed before the world was created... 😉
Again, and again, Jesus Christ "existed" before the world began. God's people also "existed" before the time had begun. The question is: In what sense did Christ exist before the foundation of the earth?
The answer is: He was foreknown [Gk. PROGINOSKO] before the world began.
Originally posted by peejayd
* Titus 2:13 is not an opening verse... 😉
I'm referring to II Peter 1:1. And in the case of Titus, I said, it can mean two beings: the Great God and the Savior, Jesus Christ.
Originally posted by peejayd
"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ ;"
Titus 2:13* can God the Father be seen or will appear to be seen?
I'll show you how Christ will appear, just tell me if you understand the message in Titus 2:13.
Originally posted by peejayd
"No man hath seen God at any time ; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."
John 1:18"Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see : to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen."
I Timothy 6:16* no man had seen the Father, and no man can see the Father... it is Christ who will appear, and He is the great God and Saviour Saint Paul is talking about in Titus 2:13... 😉
Answer me on the Titus 2:13 first.
🙂
Originally posted by peejayd
"Who, being in the form of God , thought it not robbery to be equal with God:"
Philippians 2:6* Christ was in the form of God... He was not in the form of a servant nor in the form of a human... He was in the form of God... 😉
What [B]form is being refferred there, peejayd?[/b]
Internal essence or outward appearance?
🙂
Titus 2:13
Originally posted by peejayd
* Titus 2:13 is not an opening verse... 😉"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ ;"
Titus 2:13* can God the Father be seen or will appear to be seen?
Wrong question. It is not God Himself who will appear PHYSICALLY, peejayd. Yes, your observations were correct when you say that God can't be seen PHYSICALLY. We all knew that.
Since the only true God in the entire Bible cannot be seen PHYSICALLY, we should not suppose to think that one of its verses contradict such truth.
As in the case of Titus 2:13, it is not implied there that God Himself will appear PHYSICALLY. God and Jesus will appear. In what manner, peejayd?
For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words,
of him will the Son of man be ashamed
when he comes in his glory and the glory of the Father
and of the holy angels.
Luke 9:26
Revised Standard Version
For the Son of man shall come
in the glory of his Father with his angels;
and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Matthew 16:27
King James Version
So what and who will appear according to Titus 2:13?
looking for the blessed hope
and appearing of the glory of the great God
and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Titus 2:13
The American Standard Version
looking for the blessed hope
and the appearing of the glory of our great God
and Savior, Christ Jesus,
Titus 2:13
New American Standard
awaiting our blessed hope,
the appearing of the glory of our great God
and Savior Jesus Christ,
Titus 2:13
Revised Standard Version
waiting for the blessed hope
and manifestation of the glory of our great God
and Saviour Jesus Christ,
Titus 2:13
Young's Literal Translation
while we look forward to that wonderful event
when the glory of our great God
and Savior, Jesus Christ, will be revealed.
Titus 2:13
The New Living Translation
Looking for the blessed hope
and coming of the glory of the great God
and our Saviour Jesus Christ.
Titus 2:13
The Douay-Rheims Bible
Clearly,
The "glorious appearing of God and Jesus" the Bible is referring to is the "appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ with His Father's glory". Jesus will come with the glory of God.
And nowhere in the entire verse it does say that Jesus is God.
🙂
Originally posted by Jury
So partly human, and partly God?
* the only human in Christ is His body...
"Wherefore when he cometh into the world , he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me :"
Hebrews 10:5
* because Christ was manifested in the flesh, before Christ came into the world, He does not have a human body...
Originally posted by Jury
And oh, you missed this one.
* the pronoun "this" refers to Christ because according to the verse, it is Christ who came here on earth...
Originally posted by Jury
You quoted first the [b]I Timothy 3:16 and I presented you the FACTS about the inaccuracies in its translation which you apparently haven't taken into account, yet you didn't even acknowledged, therefore it only shows that the said verse is useless to prove your point. And that is why you're quoting another verses. But I'll consider that. I'll make a separate post about that. [/B]
* you tackled about the inaccuracy of the verse, but the point of the matter is, i'm proving that Christ is a God manifested in the flesh and not the verse... if you claimed the verse to be inaccurate, then i will cite another verse to prove my stand...
Originally posted by Jury
No you didn't. You quoted John 10:30 as "I and my Father are one". So asked you: [b]One what?. You were saying there two true Gods, yet you're using John 10:30 to say that they are one. Now, they are one. One in what manner, peejayd? [/B]
* you said it yourself... although the Father and Christ are one, you referred Them as "They"... because the fact that you called Them in a plural form, it denotes that They really are not one in number...
* Christ said: "I (#1) and my Father (#2) are one"... there are two are of Them... and They are one...
* the fact that there are two true Gods does not conflict any book in the Scriptures because of Christ's statement, He and the Father are one... let us not liken our minds to God...
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways , saith the Lord.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth , so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."
Isaiah 55:8-9
* so if the counting of God conflicts the human counting, so be it... here's an example...
"And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh ?
Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh . What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder."
Matthew 19:5-6
* in human counting, spouses are couples... in God's counting, the couple are one...
Originally posted by Jury
Can you go on with the succeeding verses, please?I thought you were the one who told me that "enemies of Christ" UNDERSTOOD what He is saying?
Now, what, friend?
* my bad... what i mean was, the enemies of Christ understood the statement of Christ being one with the Father... by that, Christ calls Himself as a God...
* what i mean if the enemies of Christ are correct... are they correct when they said that Christ is just a mere human and is only pretending to be a God? are they correct?
Originally posted by Jury
I am not denying the truth that He is. The Bible also is the Word of God.
* the entirety of the Bible is not only the word of God, you can also read words of angels, words of demons, humans, even Satan himself...
Originally posted by Jury
The truth is, LOGOS was found more than 300 hundred times in the Bible. LOGOS has different meanings and usage, and Jesus, Christ, and Messiah, are not included as one of its meanings.Now, how sure are you that the LOGOS in John 1:1 is Jesus Christ Himself?
* is Saint John talking nonsense? he tackled the beginning of something that doesn't have to do anything about Christ? see here:
"In the beginning was the Word , and the Word was with God, and the Word was God ."
John 1:1
* the "Word" was preceded by a definite article "the", the "Word" Saint John was talking about is not an ordinary word that comes out when we talk... it is "The Word"... and who is this "Word"?
"And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God ."
Revelation 19:13
* "The Word" is Christ... and what happened to "The Word"?
"And the Word was made flesh , and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."
John 1:14
* can you site anyone who was manifested in the flesh, other than Christ?
Originally posted by Jury
Again, and again, Jesus Christ "existed" before the world began. God's people also "existed" before the time had begun.
* humans never existed before the time began... if so, prove it...
Originally posted by Jury
The question is: [b]In what sense did Christ exist before the foundation of the earth?The answer is: He was foreknown [Gk. PROGINOSKO] before the world began. [/B]
* Christ is WITH the Father...
"The same was in the beginning with God .
All things were made by him ; and without him was not any thing made that was made."
John 1:2-3
* Saint Paul approved this...
"But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him ."
I Corinthians 8:6
* see the consistency?
Originally posted by Jury
I'm referring to II Peter 1:1. And in the case of Titus, I said, it can mean two beings: the Great God and the Savior, Jesus Christ.I'll show you how Christ will appear, just tell me if you understand the message in Titus 2:13.
Answer me on the Titus 2:13 first. 🙂
Wrong question. It is not God Himself who will appear PHYSICALLY, peejayd. Yes, your observations were correct when you say that God can't be seen PHYSICALLY. We all knew that.
Since the only true God in the entire Bible cannot be seen PHYSICALLY, we should not suppose to think that one of its verses contradict such truth.
As in the case of Titus 2:13, it is not implied there that God Himself will appear PHYSICALLY. God and Jesus will appear. In what manner, peejayd?
Clearly,
The "glorious appearing of God and Jesus" the Bible is referring to is the "appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ with His Father's glory". Jesus will come with the glory of God.
And nowhere in the entire verse it does say that Jesus is God.
* Christ has His own glory, as the Father has His own, and also the angels...
"For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels ."
Luke 9:26
* so let us come back to Titus 2:13...
"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ ;"
Titus 2:13
* who will come or appear with glory?
"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory ."
Luke 21:27
* Christ will come with great glory... and according to Saint Paul, He is a great God and Saviour...
Originally posted by Jury
What form is being refferred there, peejayd?Internal essence or outward appearance?
* the entirety of Christ, He is a God... and because He was manifested in the flesh, He took a form of a servant and likened Himself to humans...
And or... taking the account of other scholarly views,
The "great God" and the "Savior" in Titus 2:13 is referring to the Father. Because as supported by other verses, Jesus will appear in the glory of His Father. Thus,
looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ
Indeed, the "glory of our great God and our Savior" [Remember also that God is our Savior] - and this "glory of God" is our Lord Jesus Christ.
And since, Jesus will appear WITH His Father's glory, it is somewhat similar to say that both Father and Jesus will appear.
🙂
Originally posted by Jury
And or... taking the account of other scholarly views,The "great God" and the "Savior" in [b]Titus 2:13
is referring to the Father. Because as supported by other verses, Jesus will appear in the glory of His Father. Thus,looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ
Indeed, the "glory of our great God and our Savior" [Remember also that God is our Savior] - and this "glory of God" is our Lord Jesus Christ.
And since, Jesus will appear WITH His Father's glory, it is somewhat similar to say that both Father and Jesus will appear.
🙂 [/B]
* take note that Saint Paul speaks here as a leader, a leader in the Church of God in the Bible... he speaks to the members of the Church of God... 😉
"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ ;"
Titus 2:13
* the Father and Christ are both Saviours...
"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men , specially of those that believe."
I Timothy 4:10
* the saviour of all people is the Father... 😉
"For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body ."
Ephesians 5:23
* Christ is the saviour of the body... what does the body represent?
"And he is the head of the body, the church : who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence."
Colossians 1:18
* the body is the Church... Christ is the Saviour of the Church of God in the Bible... 😉
Originally posted by peejayd
* the only human in Christ is His body...
So He is partly human and partly God? Why can't you just answer the question?
Originally posted by peejayd
* because Christ was manifested in the flesh, before Christ came into the world, He does not have a human body...
Cite a Biblical verse that says "before Christ came to the world He does not have a human body". Or else, it will appear as your own opinion.
Originally posted by peejayd
* the pronoun "this" refers to Christ because according to the verse, it is Christ who came here on earth...
Again, the verse is saying: we are in him [the Father] who is true ... even in his [the Father] Son Jesus Christ [ever notice of the pronouns "him" and "his" who is considered "true"?] And who is this "true"? This is the true God and eternal life. The pronouns in this verse peejayd is consistent.
Originally posted by peejayd
* you tackled about the inaccuracy of the verse, but the point of the matter is, i'm proving that Christ is a God manifested in the flesh and not the verse... if you claimed the verse to be inaccurate, then i will cite another verse to prove my stand...
Okay, prove to me that Jesus is the "God manifested in the flesh".
Originally posted by peejayd
* you said it yourself... although the Father and Christ are one, you referred Them as "They"... because the fact that you called Them in a plural form, it denotes that They really are not one in number...* Christ said: "I (#1) and my Father (#2) are one"... there are two are of Them... and They are one...
* the fact that there are two true Gods does not conflict any book in the Scriptures because of Christ's statement, He and the Father are one... let us not liken our minds to God...
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways , saith the Lord.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth , so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."
Isaiah 55:8-9* so if the counting of God conflicts the human counting, so be it... here's an example...
"And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh ?
Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh . What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder."
Matthew 19:5-6* in human counting, spouses are couples... in God's counting, the couple are one...
You didn't get the point peejayd. You were saying that the Father and Jesus are both true Gods. Now, there are two true Gods according to you, right? When you were asked to prove that Jesus is also a true God, you cited John 10:30 which says "I and my Father are one". The verse is not saying that Jesus is the true God. Now, why are you referring to John 10:30?
The use of pronoun "they" is simply saying that they are two in number. But not "two Gods". I am not saying that they are one in number. But why is it the verse is telling us that "I and My Father are one"? And you use to prove that there are two true Gods? Where is the connection of your "two true Gods" and Jesus' statement "I and My Father are one"?
That's what I am asking from you.
Originally posted by peejayd
* my bad... what i mean was, the enemies of Christ understood the statement of Christ being one with the Father... by that, Christ calls Himself as a God...* what i mean if the enemies of Christ are correct... are they correct when they said that Christ is just a mere human and is only pretending to be a God? are they correct?
So, the Jews were both correct and wrong at the same instance? The Jews believed in one God. One in number. Not uniplural and 3-in-1 as Oneness and Trinitarians insist, respectively. They heard Jesus saying "I and my Father are one". This statement is a conclusion to His previous statements. But did the Jews understood what He said? You said, they understood Jesus. But no, peejayd, they did not. By that statement, they thought Jesus was claiming to be God. But no. Jesus was simply saying "I and my Father are one".
The statement can only have two meanings, peejayd. It is either:
1. Jesus is saying He is the God Himself, or
2. Jesus and His Father are one in purpose.
The Jews reaction were natural, peejayd. But it's not necessarily that they understood what Jesus said. Since, they believe that the Father alone is the true God, they thought that Jesus is claiming to be the Father Himself. Thus, "I and my Father are one".
But the real reason is what Jesus had just stated earlier before He concluded "I and my Father are one." If you read the preceding verses, the Godship of Christ is not the topic there nor the Godship of the Father. Jesus is saying that He and His Father has one purpose of taking care of the flock [John 10:28-29]. They are one in accord.
But the Jews understood this? No. What did the Jews thought of Him? They thought that Jesus was claiming to be the Father Himself. Thus, "being a man, you make yourself God?". The Jews are thinking of one God - the Father. That's why they didn't say: "you make yourself also God?"
Now, didn't Jesus refute them?
Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, 'I said, " You are gods" '? If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), "do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?
John 10:34-36
New King James Version
Very true, peejayd. Everyone who has power and authority is worthy to be called "god" and this is common to the language of the Jews, but they are not thinking of this as similar to God's Godship. Yes, Jesus is worthy to be called "god" and "lord" as kings of the world because He Himself is a King. But is Jesus claiming to be God like what the Jews are thinking? No. Did Jesus refute them as "Why are you accusing me of blasphemy when I said, 'I am God'?" . Wouldn't it be the perfect situation to tell them the truth if Jesus was indeed God? Why not He answered them directly that He was God if He was really so? But, no. Jesus is not claiming to be God in the entire Bible. What He was claiming was that He is the 'Son of God'.
Originally posted by peejayd
* the entirety of the Bible is not only the word of God, you can also read words of angels, words of demons, humans, even Satan himself...
A proverb [saying] is also LOGOS.
Originally posted by peejayd
* is Saint John talking nonsense? he tackled the beginning of something that doesn't have to do anything about Christ? see here:
Wrong. I am not saying that the Word [LOGOS] has nothing to do with Christ. If I did, quote me on that, or else, you're just accusing me.
Originally posted by peejayd
"In the beginning was the Word , and the Word was with God, and the Word was God ."
John 1:1* the "Word" was preceded by a definite article "the", the "Word" Saint John was talking about is not an ordinary word that comes out when we talk... it is "The Word"... and who is this "Word"?
"And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God ."
Revelation 19:13* "The Word" is Christ... and what happened to "The Word"?
"And the Word was made flesh , and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."
John 1:14
EN GAR TOUTW O [COLOR=red]LOGOV ESTIN ALHQINOV OTI ALLOV ESTIN O SPEIRWN KAI ALLOV O QERIZWN[/COLOR]
John 4:37
Ever notice of the definite article O there? So what if there is a definite article in every LOGOS found in the Scriptures? It doesn't prove it means Jesus Christ Himself.
"For in this the [COLOR=red]saying is true:
'One sows and another reaps.'[/COLOR]
John 4:37
NKJV
Get the point, peejayd? What I am trying to say is that the LOGOS in John 1:1 can't be directly mean Jesus Christ Himself as a person. What we have there is an abstract LOGOS. The real meaning of LOGOS. Again, not Jesus Christ Himself. The LOGOS there is an abstract word which has something to do with Christ.
See the difference? I am not saying that the LOGOS there has nothing to do with Christ. What I am saying is that the LOGOS is NOT Jesus Christ Himself.
Originally posted by peejayd
* can you site anyone who was manifested in the flesh, other than Christ?
Why do I need to? I am not denying the truth that Jesus manifested in the flesh. We, human beings, are all manifested in the flesh. Is there a problem with that?
Originally posted by peejayd
* humans never existed before the time began... if so, prove it...
You didn't get the point, peejayd. Your taking the word "exist" too literal. If you don't believe that we are all part of God's plan in the beginning, so you didn't "exist" in the beginning.
Now, you don't believe God has given us grace before the time began?
Originally posted by peejayd
* Christ is WITH the Father..."The same was in the beginning with God .
All things were made by him ; and without him was not any thing made that was made."
John 1:2-3
What was there in the beginning with the Father is the LOGOS... not Jesus Christ Himself.
Originally posted by peejayd
* Saint Paul approved this..."But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him ."
I Corinthians 8:6* see the consistency?
Did I say any contradictions to that verse? There,in that verse, if it is true that the Father and Jesus are both Gods, why not Apostle Paul said: "there is but one God, the Father... and one God, Jesus Christ"? Truly, because the Apostles does not uphold that there are two Gods.
Originally posted by peejayd
* Christ has His own glory, as the Father has His own, and also the angels..."For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels ."
Luke 9:26* so let us come back to Titus 2:13...
"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ ;"
Titus 2:13* who will come or appear with glory?
"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory ."
Luke 21:27
The truth remains that Christ will come with His Father's glory.
Originally posted by peejayd
* Christ will come with great glory... and according to Saint Paul, He is a great God and Saviour...
Not according to Apostle Paul - but according to you.
Originally posted by peejayd
* the entirety of Christ, He is a God... and because He was manifested in the flesh, He took a form of a servant and likened Himself to humans...
Originally posted by peejayd
* take note that Saint Paul speaks here as a leader, a leader in the Church of God in the Bible... he speaks to the members of the Church of God... 😉"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ ;"
Titus 2:13* the Father and Christ are both Saviours...
"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men , specially of those that believe."
I Timothy 4:10* the saviour of all people is the Father... 😉
"For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body ."
Ephesians 5:23* Christ is the saviour of the body... what does the body represent?
"And he is the head of the body, the church : who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence."
Colossians 1:18* the body is the Church... Christ is the Saviour of the Church of God in the Bible... 😉
I never said that Jesus is not our Savior.
🙂