Originally posted by Alliance
Why is the fact that the US is DEMOCRATIC and NOT A DEMOCRACY so hard to comprehend?The UK would best be described as a constitutional monarchy.
But the US fits one of the definitions of democracy. So it is a democracy.
Yes, that is true, but at the same time it is a democracy.
Democracy has a double meaning. When you refer to the System democracy, which is basically direct democracy you are right. But there is also the meaning where democracy is popular government. And that is just as valid as a definition as the first one. So Great Britain is in fact a democracy and a constitutional Monarchy. the US is a democracy and a Republic.
You want me to use "democratic" instead of democracy while the word "democracy" applies just as well. I am sorry that the actual language does not agree with your personal definition of democracy, but that is just the way it is.
No, the word democratic is not at all the same thing as democracy. A Democracy is a type of government. End of story. A democratic government not a type of governement, but a philosophy of the government itself. The two words have very different denotations. A democratic government is one where people have some form of voting rights. Democracies are democratic, but so are many other types of government, including the UK's contitutional monarchy and the US's federal republic. Neither are democracies, both are demicratic.
The issue here is that your defintion of democracy is arbitrary. What you are describing are democratic philosphies, not a democracy. Even these governemnts say that they are not democracies, but states with democratic traditions. They know more than you, they are the government. This isn't just my interpretation. This is theirs.
Originally posted by Bardock42
Well, I know Germany for fact claims to be a democracy. (probably because it is one).But okay, I will pretend to agree with you there for a moment. What exactly is a Representative Democracy then?
Originally posted by Jonathan Mark
It is a system where the people elect Representatives to speak for them in a governmental body. A true Democracy would be like what ancient Athens had.
I prefer the term direct democracy. But yeah, that doesn't change the fact that represantative democracy is still democracy..and nort just "democratic..."
Originally posted by Bardock42
I prefer the term direct democracy. But yeah, that doesn't change the fact that represantative democracy is still democracy..and nort just "democratic..."
Direct democracy, classically termed pure democracy, is a political system where the people vote on government decisions, such as questions of whether to approve or reject various laws. It is called direct because the power of making decisions is exercised by the people directly, without intermediaries or representatives. Historically, this form of government has been rare, due to the difficulties of getting all the people of a certain territory in one place for the purpose of voting. All direct democracies to date have been relatively small communities; usually city-states. The most notable of these was ancient Athens.
Representative democracy is a political system where the people vote on government members, who are then expected to make decisions in accordance with the interests of their voters. It is called representative because the people do not vote on government decisions directly, but elect representatives to decide for them. This form of government has been increasingly common in recent times, and the number of representative democracies experienced such explosive growth during the 20th century so that the majority of the world's population now lives under representative democratic regimes (which are sometimes also referred to as "republics"😉. In turn, representative democracies may be subdivided into "liberal" and "illiberal" forms.
Liberal democracy is a type of representative democracy where the ruling government is subject to rule of law and separation of powers, while the people are guaranteed certain inviolable rights. Illiberal democracy is a type of representative democracy where there are no effective limits on the power of elected representatives to rule as they please.
Originally posted by Bardock42
So by that definition, is the US a "Representative Democracy"?[edit]Even a Liberal one?
But yes I suppose you could say the US is a "Representative Democracy" although if anything it's a blend between a Republic and a Democracy. Saying that it is democratic is more accurate.
Originally posted by Jonathan Mark
By definition Cuba is a Democracy of sorts (although we all know Mr. Castro is just a lying ass)... an actual true Democracy is what the Greeks pioneered way before everyone else.But yes I suppose you could say the US is a "Representative Democracy" although if anything it's a blend between a Republic and a Democracy. Saying that it is democratic is more accurate.
But yes, the US is a representative Democracy, good that we established that, it is also a Republic, good that we established that as well.
Originally posted by Bardock42
Cuba has no free elections, ergo it isn't a Democracy. It might be a Reoublic though.But yes, the US is a representative Democracy, good that we established that, it is also a Republic, good that we established that as well.
Cuba is by definition a Democratic state because the people do participate in elections. Granted these elections are just shams, but nonetheless they exist. It is more just a fake cover to appease the UN.
Really I hope Castro croaks soon.
Originally posted by Jonathan Mark
Cuba is by definition a Democratic state because the people do participate in elections. Granted these elections are just shams, but nonetheless they exist. It is more just a fake cover to appease the UN.Really I hope Castro croaks soon.
No, you seem to get that wrong. It is a Republic because the people participate in elections. They are in no way democratic elections though.
I think you might mix Republic with Democracy there. For it to be a democracy it has to be free (democratic) elections.
Originally posted by Bardock42
No, you seem to get that wrong. It is a Republic because the people participate in elections. They are in no way democratic elections though.
I think you might mix Republic with Democracy there. For it to be a democracy *** has to be free (democratic) elections.
I wonder what will happen when he dies...
Originally posted by Jonathan Mark
Like I said it is just a cover. If you want a true name for it's government it would be a Communist state. However I suppose you could call it a Republic. Which is still bullshit since Castro's an ass who oppresses his people.I wonder what will happen when he dies...
Well, yeah he might claim to be in a Democracy, but he isn't. Lots of people do that recently, but most of them aren't.
Originally posted by Janus Marius
You first posted:Alliance replied:
You then went on to reply:
You seem to be forgetting (Or not realizing) that democracy is true when it's directly done by the people. Of the in effect systems, representative democracy is the [b]farthest
from the ideal of democracy (Read again: rule by the people). Delegation is far closer.I realize you think you got the world by the balls because you found the link to Dictionary.com, but you have to realize that I live in America, and I am currently taking political science classes. The idea of democracy is RULE BY THE PEOPLE. Representative government where the representatives are not bound by constituency nor are able to be recalled with ease is barely democratic in practice. Having the right to vote does not equate having a voice in the government. And the only way to circumvent the impersonal process of mass vote is lobbying. However, that is taken over by large interest groups and corporations who pay people to strictly lobby for their own private agenda. This throws the shift of power away from the people and into the hands of multimillion dollar corporations who can afford to pay tons of lobbyists and drum up support. It doesn't matter who the people vote into office out of the handful of rich, old boys club individuals they have to choose from- the companies still stick their wallet out there and sway governmental policy.
Now... Are you going to continue to argue out of your ass that representative democracy in America is a true democracy and that direct democracy is somehow not, or are you done? [/B]
Bardock, address this post with something other than a one liner, and pull your head out of your ass.
Originally posted by Janus Marius
You seem to be forgetting (Or not realizing) that democracy is true when it's directly done by the people. Of the in effect systems, representative democracy is the farthest from the ideal of democracy (Read again: rule by the people). Delegation is far closer.
Democracy is "true" when it is a Type of Democracy. Representative Deomocracy is a type of Democrqacy. Ergo it is "true".
Now, do you want to deny that the US is a representative Democracy?
Originally posted by Janus Marius
I realize you think you got the world by the balls because you found the link to Dictionary.com, but you have to realize that I live in America, and I am currently taking political science classes.
Was that necessary for our discussion?
Originally posted by Janus Marius
The idea of democracy is RULE BY THE PEOPLE. Representative government where the representatives are not bound by constituency nor are able to be recalled with ease is barely democratic in practice.
Yes it is democratic. By definition, representative Democracy is democratic.
Originally posted by Janus Marius
Having the right to vote does not equate having a voice in the government. And the only way to circumvent the impersonal process of mass vote is lobbying. However, that is taken over by large interest groups and corporations who pay people to strictly lobby for their own private agenda. This throws the shift of power away from the people and into the hands of multimillion dollar corporations who can afford to pay tons of lobbyists and drum up support. It doesn't matter who the people vote into office out of the handful of rich, old boys club individuals they have to choose from- the companies still stick their wallet out there and sway governmental policy.
Originally posted by Janus Marius
Now... Are you going to continue to argue out of your ass that representative democracy in America is a true democracy and that direct democracy is somehow not, or are you done?
I never claimed that direct democracy is not "true". It is. So it representative Democracy. I am also not argueing out of my ass.
Yes, yes you are. When I first posted that I quoted you where you started to argue out of your ass. Go back and check it and you'll see the problem. And what you seem to be ignoring is that a republic is the least democratic of literally dozens of types of "indirect democracies". And the only direct democracy IS a true democracy. You disputed this and tried to say that a republic was on the same level. You're arguing out of your ass. Please stop that.
Originally posted by Janus Marius
Yes, yes you are. When I first posted that I quoted you where you started to argue out of your ass. Go back and check it and you'll see the problem. And what you seem to be ignoring is that a republic is the least democratic of literally dozens of types of "indirect democracies". And the only direct democracy IS a true democracy. You disputed this and tried to say that a republic was on the same level. You're arguing out of your ass. Please stop that.
You are still wrong.
Republic is a system where a government gets elected (That can be democratic or not)
A Democracy is a System where the people contriol the government.
There are direct Democracies and Representative. Both are Democracys.
The US is a Democracy. The US is a Republic.
That about covers it.
I never once said anything was the on the same level as another. What should I base that on. I jsut stated the facts.
You are still wrong.Republic is a system where a government gets elected (That can be democratic or not)
A Democracy is a System where the people contriol the government.
There are direct Democracies and Representative. Both are Democracys.
The US is a Democracy. The US is a Republic.
That about covers it.
I never once said anything was the on the same level as another. What should I base that on. I jsut stated the facts.
O rly?
Originally posted by Bardock42
It is a true and a real democracy though. Maybe you should read the definitions of democracy again. Everything that fits that definition is a "true" democracy.Again Democracy and Republic describe not the same thing. Something can be a Democracy and a Republic (USA, Germany, France....), something can be a Democracy and a Monarchy (England, Spain (I think)), but nothing can be a Republic and a Monarchy...for example.
That's putting them on equal grounds.
You seem to forget my original post:
Originally posted by Janus Marius
I think you're missing the point- it's not a true democracy or even a real democracy because the people only elect representatives... just like they did in the ancient Roman Republic.
Now...
democracy [Gr.,=rule of the people], term originating in ancient Greece to designate a government where the people share in directing the activities of the state, as distinct from governments controlled by a single class, select group, or autocrat. The definition of democracy has been expanded, however, to describe a philosophy that insists on the right and the capacity of a people, acting either directly or through representatives, to control their institutions for their own purposes. Such a philosophy places a high value on the equality of individuals and would free people as far as possible from restraints not self-imposed. It insists that necessary restraints be imposed only by the consent of the majority and that they conform to the principle of equality
The Greek word means literally "People" and "power". ... Demo... kratos. The power is fully in the hands of the people in a democracy. This is NOT the case when they all cast equal votes to elect businessmen and their sons into positions of power where they are then directly influenced by large interest groups and their own personal agendas. That's NOT true democracy.
Now, stop arguing like this: