one would think that the purest form of government would be the "true" form. That is an arbitrary word that you have incorrectly used to describe what people commonly consider to be a democracy.
You seem to be quoting your defintions a lot. Maybe you should read the republic definion again and see if this defintion excludes America's current form of government or not.
And the elecotrate clearly does matter.
speaking of which, are you a US citizen? your location says Deutschland.
Also, the CIA defines America's government as "Constitution-based federal republic; strong democratic tradition" and I doubt the CIA has it wrong.
Originally posted by Alliance
one would think that the purest form of government would be the "true" form. That is an arbitrary word that you have incorrectly used to describe what people commonly consider to be a democracy.You seem to be quoting your defintions a lot. Maybe you should read the republic definion again and see if this defintion excludes America's current form of government or not.
And the elecotrate clearly does matter.
speaking of which, are you a US citizen? your location says Deutschland.
Well i believe the "true" form is the form that fits the definition. Actually "true" is not really applicable here anyways.
Obviously it does not exclude the USA, since the USA is a Republic.
Yeah, it does matter. But not to disprove that something is a Democracy.
No, I am a citizen of Germany. I also live in Germany. May I ask you a question in return though? (Rhetorical) Does it, and if, how does it matter?
Originally posted by Alliance
Also, the CIA defines America's government as "Constitution-based federal republic; strong democratic tradition" and I doubt the CIA has it wrong.
The CIA has it right on. USA is a Republic. A democratic one.
No, citizenship doesn't matter. I was just curious what background you were coming from. Being a US citizen, I think I might know more about the US electoral process than you. I know very little about Germany's electoral process. I was just trying to gague this.
Originally posted by Bardock42
The USA is factually both. It is a Republic, because that is the form of government they have. 3 Branches, President, blah, blah. And it is a democracy because the people elect their leaders, indirectly but they still do. Please don't argue this, it is just the way it is. [/B]
You need to be specific. You say the US is a republic, but then you also believe the US is a democracy. The US is a republic, but it is not both. "Democratic Republic" There is a noun and an adjective. The noun, republic, defines what the nation is. The adjective, democracy, modifies the noun to give more insight in to the noun. The US has democratic tendancies, but is not a "repbulican democracy." Its a Republic. It is democratic, but not a democracy.
Originally posted by Alliance
No, citizenship doesn't matter. I was just curious what background you were coming from. Being a US citizen, I think I might know more about the US electoral process than you. I know very little about Germany's electoral process. I was just trying to gague this.You need to be specific. You say the US is a republic, but then you also believe the US is a democracy. The US is a republic, but it is not both. "Democratic Republic" There is a noun and an adjective. The noun, republic, defines what the nation is. The adjective, democracy, modifies the noun to give more insight in to the noun. The US has democratic tendancies, but is not a "repbulican democracy." Its a Republic. It is democratic, but not a democracy.
Well, I think we learn more about the US Election Process than you learn about the German one. Would make sense, since the German one isn't really to important to the US (although better).
Yes, the US is a Republic. That is true. Every piece of that statement is true. Now the next one: The US is a Democracy. Yes, also true. Bioth true statements. Clear?
No, Bardock... You're missing the point. There haven't been true democracies since the cantons of Switzerland and the era of democratic Athens. The idea of a democracy is that people have power over the government. With a republic, that's not the case; representatives represent the people- in much the same way the equestrians and senators represented the people in the Roman Republic. Likewise, in Napoleon's France, there were groups to represent the people, but the people had little to no power at all to effect government policy.
However, in a democracy, the people DO directly influence and effect the government. There is no representative or middle man in the way. The people ARE the government.
Originally posted by Janus Marius
No, Bardock... You're missing the point. There haven't been true democracies since the cantons of Switzerland and the era of democratic Athens. The idea of a democracy is that people have power over the government. With a republic, that's not the case; representatives represent the people- in much the same way the equestrians and senators represented the people in the Roman Republic. Likewise, in Napoleon's France, there were groups to represent the people, but the people had little to no power at all to effect government policy.However, in a democracy, the people DO directly influence and effect the government. There is no representative or middle man in the way. The people ARE the government.
No, that's you rdefinition of "true" Democracy. You miss the point. That is not the real definition of Democracy.
Originally posted by Bardock42
No, that's you rdefinition of "true" Democracy. You miss the point. That is not the real definition of Democracy.
republic [Lat. res publica,=public affair], today understood to be a sovereign state ruled by representatives of a widely inclusive electorate. The term republic formerly denoted a form of government that was both free from hereditary or monarchical rule and had popular control of the state and a conception of public welfare. It is in this sense that we speak of the ancient Roman republic. Today, in addition to the above characteristics, a republic is a state in which all segments of society are enfranchised and in which the state's power is constitutionally limited. Traditionally a republic is distinguished from a true democracy in that the republic operates through a representative assembly chosen by the citizenry, while in a democracy the populace participates directly in governmental affairs. In actual practice, however, most modern representative governments are closer to a republic than a democracy. The United States is an example of a federal republic, in which the powers of the central government are limited and the component parts of the nation, the states, exercise some measure of home rule. France is an example of a centralized republic, in which the component parts have more limited powers. The USSR, though in theory a grouping of federated republics and autonomous regions, was in fact a centralized republic until its breakup in 1991.
See F. Hermens, The Representative Republic (1958) and Introduction to Modern Politics (1959).
Originally posted by Janus Marius
republic [Lat. res publica,=public affair], today understood to be a sovereign state ruled by representatives of a widely inclusive electorate. The term republic formerly denoted a form of government that was both free from hereditary or monarchical rule and had popular control of the state and a conception of public welfare. It is in this sense that we speak of the ancient Roman republic. Today, in addition to the above characteristics, a republic is a state in which all segments of society are enfranchised and in which the state's power is constitutionally limited. Traditionally a republic is distinguished from a true democracy in that the republic operates through a representative assembly chosen by the citizenry, while in a democracy the populace participates directly in governmental affairs. [b]In actual practice, however, most modern representative governments are closer to a republic than a democracy. The United States is an example of a federal republic, in which the powers of the central government are limited and the component parts of the nation, the states, exercise some measure of home rule. France is an example of a centralized republic, in which the component parts have more limited powers. The USSR, though in theory a grouping of federated republics and autonomous regions, was in fact a centralized republic until its breakup in 1991.See F. Hermens, The Representative Republic (1958) and Introduction to Modern Politics (1959). [/B]
Reading comprehension is your friend.
I think you're missing the point- the term "democracy" in the most general sense can cover a LOT of things:
- Direct democracy (Which is what we're arguing about; it's the only form of democracy that's true to the ideal of "power by the people".)
- Representative Democracy (Where the power of the many is put into the hands of the few, who are free to do as they fit. Recall, particularly in the American system, is difficult at best.)
- Delegative Democracy (Where representitives act according to constituency, and recall is fairly easy)
- Anticipatory Democracy, Deliberative Democracy, Grassroots democracy, etc. These proposed alternatives to delegative and representative (And there's literally dozens of alternatives proposed at the moment) which would be closer to a real or direct democracy. If anything, representative democracy (Read: republic) is the farthest from direct democracy, being surpassed by delegative in effectively communicating the will of the people.
Originally posted by Janus Marius
I think you're missing the point- the term "democracy" in the most general sense can cover a LOT of things:- Direct democracy (Which is what we're arguing about; it's the only form of democracy that's true to the ideal of "power by the people".)
- Representative Democracy (Where the power of the many is put into the hands of the few, who are free to do as they fit. Recall, particularly in the American system, is difficult at best.)
- Delegative Democracy (Where representitives act according to constituency, and recall is fairly easy)
- Anticipatory Democracy, Deliberative Democracy, Grassroots democracy, etc. These proposed alternatives to delegative and representative (And there's literally dozens of alternatives proposed at the moment) which would be closer to a real or direct democracy. If anything, representative democracy (Read: republic) is the farthest from direct democracy, being surpassed by delegative in effectively communicating the will of the people.
Yes, maybe you were missing the point that I claimed that all along?
You first posted:
Originally posted by Bardock42
It is a true and a real democracy though. Maybe you should read the definitions of democracy again. Everything that fits that definition is a "true" democracy.Again Democracy and Republic describe not the same thing. Something can be a Democracy and a Republic (USA, Germany, France....), something can be a Democracy and a Monarchy (England, Spain (I think)), but nothing can be a Republic and a Monarchy...for example.
Alliance replied:
In case you forgot, the electorate votes for the president, not the voter.Also, republics often rely on democratic principles, that doesn't mean however, that they are democacies. You don't vote on every piece of legislation > thats a true democracy.
You then went on to reply:
Originally posted by Bardock42
That does not matter. It doesn't need to be direct to be a democracy.No, that's wrong, that is one form of democracy. Direct Democracy. Not "true" democracy.
You seem to be forgetting (Or not realizing) that democracy is true when it's directly done by the people. Of the in effect systems, representative democracy is the farthest from the ideal of democracy (Read again: rule by the people). Delegation is far closer.
I realize you think you got the world by the balls because you found the link to Dictionary.com, but you have to realize that I live in America, and I am currently taking political science classes. The idea of democracy is RULE BY THE PEOPLE. Representative government where the representatives are not bound by constituency nor are able to be recalled with ease is barely democratic in practice. Having the right to vote does not equate having a voice in the government. And the only way to circumvent the impersonal process of mass vote is lobbying. However, that is taken over by large interest groups and corporations who pay people to strictly lobby for their own private agenda. This throws the shift of power away from the people and into the hands of multimillion dollar corporations who can afford to pay tons of lobbyists and drum up support. It doesn't matter who the people vote into office out of the handful of rich, old boys club individuals they have to choose from- the companies still stick their wallet out there and sway governmental policy.
Now... Are you going to continue to argue out of your ass that representative democracy in America is a true democracy and that direct democracy is somehow not, or are you done?
It does not matter what you regard as "true" democracy. Democracy is also representative Democracy.
Therefore America is both a democracy (represantative) and a Republic. Get it?
I will give you this: America is not a direct Democracy. Also this: America is not a Democracy as Athens used to be. But the USA is a Democracy. You as a soemone taking Political Science should know that.
Originally posted by Alliance
A government cannot have two different systems. Even the US government says its a Republic. Yes we lie a lot, but not on this.America as a democracy was cold war propoganda sent out to solidify the US-CCCP dichotomy. Like most propoganda, its false.
But Republic and Democracy are not different or opposing Systems. They are describing different things. Republic Describes the form of governmen while democracy describes where the power is taking from (the people)
If Democracy was a special System I would agree but it isn't.
Originally posted by Alliance
Also, the CIA defines America's government as "Constitution-based federal republic; strong democratic tradition" and I doubt the CIA has it wrong.
Originally posted by Bardock42
The CIA has it right on. USA is a Republic. A democratic one.
Originally posted by Bardock42
Republic Describes the form of governmen while democracy describes where the power is taking from (the people)If Democracy was a special System I would agree but it isn't.
You've said it yourself repeatedly. THe US government is a Republic. It is democratic but it is NOT a democracy.