Communism & Dictatorships

The term Democracy nowadays includes representative democracy. That might not be what you want and not what the Old Greeks wanted but it is that way today. And a representative Democracy (like there is in the US) is just as much a Democracy as one in the Cantons of Switzerland.

Or how exactly would you describe the term "representative Democracy"? Is that not a Democracy for you? Is it just saying Democracy but is in fact something totally different?

Also, it means that the Power is in the Hands of the people, not that every decision is made by the people. That never ever applied...never.

Again representative Democracy is a real Democracy. Is a true Democracy. Just because you don't accept it doesn't make it wrong. Maybe you should just have a talk with your History or Politics teacher about it, and when you come back you can agree with me. Good? Fine!

Actually, none of my professors agree with you, nor my peers. You ask anyone who isn't being anal retentive whether or not anything outside of a direct democracy is a "true democracy" and they'll tell you no.

Mine as well. Democracy is direct rule by the people. You've said it yourslef. If it is not direct rule be the people, its some other pseudo-democracy. I don't recall ever voting on any piece of legislation...ever. Infact, I dont even get to vote for president.

The US is a federal republic. The CIA says this, the US Senators say this, all history texts i've read say this.

What the heck do you think your losing by the US not being democracy? And we will not come back when "we agree with you." You have brought no facts to your argument besides a dictionary.com stub. If you want us to respect your opinon which we have clearly demonstarted as wrong with real evidence, provide counter evidence instead of elitist babble.

Originally posted by Alliance
Mine as well. Democracy is direct rule by the people. You've said it yourslef. If it is not direct rule be the people, its some other pseudo-democracy. I don't recall ever voting on any piece of legislation...ever. Infact, I dont even get to vote for president.

The US is a federal republic. The CIA says this, the US Senators say this, all history texts i've read say this.

What the heck do you think your losing by the US not being democracy? And we will not come back when "we agree with you." You have brought no facts to your argument besides a dictionary.com stub. If you want us to respect your opinon which we have clearly demonstarted as wrong with real evidence, provide counter evidence instead of elitist babble.

Well, I personally think the definition of Democracy is enough proof in a discussion about something being a Democracy.

One last time, it is a simple thing, you two try to drag this conversation to some sort of "true" democracy debate. That it is not. It is a debate about whether the United States of America are a Democracy or not.

The United States of America are a Democracy if there System fits the Definition of Democracy. So once again I will produce the Definitions of Democracy, and if you can somehow show that those Definitions are wrong, please reply. If your arguments will only be, my Mom, Sister, Professor, Friends and I disagree and don't want it to be, well maybe you should just leave it alone then.

Lets start with dictionary.com, a website that has definitions of words in the English language.

de·moc·ra·cy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-mkr-s)
n. pl. de·moc·ra·cies
1 Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives.
2 A political or social unit that has such a government.
3 common people, considered as the primary source of political power.
4 Majority rule.
5 The principles of social equality and respect for the individual within a community.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language

Alright, elected representatives (check), primary source of power by the people (check)

Next:

Main Entry: de·moc·ra·cy
Pronunciation: di-'mä-kr&-sE
Function: noun
Inflected Form: plural -cies
1 a : government by the people; especially : rule of the majority b : a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections
2 : a political unit that has a democratic government

Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law

Let me check again, yes the US has a system of representation and periodically holds free elections.
Also, we already agreed that the US has a democratic government. So since that is also a definition of Democracy I'd say the US is still one of those.

Next:

Main Entry: representative democracy
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: a type of democracy in which the citizens delegate authority to elected representatives

Webster's New Millennium™ Dictionary of English

Yes, that describes the US as well.

Last a little piece of Wikipedia.

Representative democracy is a political system where the people vote on government members, who are then expected to make decisions in accordance with the interests of their voters. It is called representative because the people do not vote on government decisions directly, but elect representatives to decide for them. This form of government has been increasingly common in recent times, and the number of representative democracies experienced such explosive growth during the 20th century so that the majority of the world's population now lives under representative democratic regimes (which are sometimes also referred to as "republics"😉. In turn, representative democracies may be subdivided into "liberal" and "illiberal" forms.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy

Hmm, I see most governments nowadays, aha, representatives, aha....seems to me the US is a representative democracy (which is a type of Democracy...hence the word "Democracy"😉

So to hopefully bring this to an end. The United States of AMerica are, by definition, a Democracy. They are, and we all agreed to that, also a Republic. It does not matter what the CIA says (although they seem to agree) , what you Mommas say, and what you say, if the president today would declare theat the USA are a Communist country with a dictatorship, he would just plain be wrong, because the System of the US are a Democracy and a Republic. Easy as that. I hope this is done now. cause frankly, it is boring to argue with people who just say, I disagree.

Here are the links to those sites that you should maybe visit....at least in debates where the definitions of things are important (as was in this one).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy
http://www.wikipedia.org/

[edit]Also, I wouldn't lose anything if the US wasn't a Democracy, frankly I couldn't care less. I am only argueing here because the United States of America are, indeed, a Democracy.

Originally posted by Bardock42
cause frankly, it is boring to argue with people who just say, I disagree.

What a hypocritical statement. I'll respond to your post later.

Actuallywhile im here...here is a quote from dictionary.com (They give definitons of words in the English language)

If you look up "United States" you will see that under that entry, found here <United States> Government: "Type: federal republic; strong democratic tradition"

So, while you make conjectures based on your personal opinion and vague definitions. We have actual links from sources, including your own, that say the United Staes is a federal republic with strong democratic conditions. None of your sources have mention the US directly. Mine have.

Originally posted by Alliance
What a hypocritical statement. I'll respond to your post later.

Actuallywhile im here...here is a quote from dictionary.com (They give definitons of words in the English language)

If you look up "United States" you will see that under that entry, found here <United States> Government: "Type: federal republic; strong democratic tradition"

So, while you make conjectures based on your personal opinion and vague definitions. We have actual links from sources, including your own, that say the United Staes is a federal republic with strong democratic conditions. None of your sources have mention the US directly. Mine have.

My sources do not need to mention the US specifically, cause the US is not a special case. It is like most Western countries nowadays a democracy.

Or can you explain why the US for some reason does not fit the definition of democracy, more specifically representative Democracy? I'd really like to hear that one.

Originally posted by Bardock42
My sources do not need to mention the US specifically, cause the US is not a special case.

Bull. I have sources that define the United States as a federal republic. Your argument is based on your own misguided interpretation of what democracy is. I've never argued the US isnt democratic, but its not a democracy. You're wrong.

If you need more proof...here.

1. Democracies do not have constitutions. People in federal repulics rule by law, not through popular opinon (as in democracy).
2. Independant states

"A federal republic is a state which is both a federation and a republic. A federation is a state composed of a number of self-governing regions (often themselves referred to as 'states' or 'regions'😉 united by a central, federal government. In a federation, unlike in a unitary state, the self-governing status of autonomous regions is constitutionally entrenched and cannot be revoked by an unilateral decision of the central government." Wikipedia

You'll also find, listed there, that both Germany and the US are federal republics.

And dont ASK us to ask teachers etc. and then claim thier advice is not worthy. If you requested it, you better take it.

Originally posted by Bardock42
My sources do not need to mention the US specifically, cause the US is not a special case. It is like most Western countries nowadays a democracy.

Or can you explain why the US for some reason does not fit the definition of democracy, more specifically representative Democracy? I'd really like to hear that one.

Elections as rituals
Elections are not in themselves a sufficient condition for the existence of democracy.
Elections have often been used by authoritarian regimes or dictatorships to give a false sense of democracy. This can happen in a variety of different ways:

- restrictions on who is allowed to stand for election
- restrictions on the true amount of power that elected representatives -are allowed to hold, or the policies that they are permitted to choose while in office
- voting which is not truly free and fair (e.g., through intimidation of those voting for particular candidates)
or most simply through falsification of the results

Historical examples of this include the USSR under the CPSU before its collapse in 1991, Iraq under Saddam Hussein, and the Philippines under Ferdinand Marcos.

...

The definition of the word 'democracy' from the time of ancient Greece up to now has not been constant. In contemporary usage, the term 'democracy' refers to a government chosen by the people, whether it is direct or representative.
There is another definition of democracy, particularly in constitutional theory and in historical usages and especially when considering the works of the American "Founding Fathers." According to this usage, the word 'democracy' refers solely to direct democracy, whilst a representative democracy where representatives of the people govern in accordance with a constitution is referred to as a 'republic.' This older terminology retains some popularity in U.S. conservative and Libertarian debate.

The original framers of the U.S. Constitution were notably cognizant of what they perceived as a danger of majority rule in oppressing freedom of the individual. (See Tyranny of the majority below). For example, James Madison, in Federalist Paper No. 10 advocates a republic over a democracy precisely to protect the individual from oppression by majority. However, at the same time, the framers carefully created democratic institutions and major open society reforms within the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. They kept what they believed were the best elements of democracy, but mitigated by a balance of power and a layered federal structure.

Modern definitions of the term 'republic,' however, refer to any state with an elective head of state serving for a limited term, in contrast to most contemporary hereditary monarchies which are representative democracies and constitutional monarchies adhering to parliamentarism. (Older elective monarchies are also not considered to be republics.)

Reference.com

Yes, I know that elections are not sufficent, they have to be free....which they are in the US.

See the older definition? Yes, it might have been that way once...but nowadays representative Democracy is referred to as Democracy, that's probably why it is called representative Democracy.

Is it so hard to accept that the USA are indeed a representative Democracy? I mean they are. The definition of representative Democracy fitst teh USA...so they must be.

I don't get you. You roll around in the shit that is semantics and then get all offended when we point out how damn dirty you are. You made the assertion that the U.S. was a "true democracy" and that "all democracies are equal in that they are under the definition of democracy". The American Founding Fathers, CIA, American professors and two American college students disagree with you. Are you that thickheaded? A direct democracy is true democracy, and a representative democracy is the farthest from a true democracy. Hence, it's just a republic with some democratic ideas. That's it. I mean, they had elections in Cuba... are they democratic too? Don't be daft.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Is it so hard to accept that the USA are indeed a representative Democracy? I mean they are.

You're asking us to accept it because you tell us so. NOT going to work. Even in the face of (dare I call it) overwhelming evidence that the US is a federal republic with strong democratic policies, you continue to insist it is a democracy. Being democratic does not make you a democracy. Most countries in the world claim to be democratic. Most countries in the world are not democracies.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
I don't get you. You roll around in the shit that is semantics and then get all offended when we point out how damn dirty you are. You made the assertion that the U.S. was a "true democracy" and that "all democracies are equal in that they are under the definition of democracy". The American Founding Fathers, CIA, American professors and two American college students disagree with you. Are you that thickheaded? A direct democracy is true democracy, and a representative democracy is the farthest from a true democracy. Hence, it's just a republic with some democratic ideas. That's it. I mean, they had elections in Cuba... are they democratic too? Don't be daft.

No, I said the US is a Democracy. That is my point. This "true democracy" you are talkiong about I don't really know. What is this "true democracy" ..... are you jsut not able to use the real term which is "direct democracy"?

Also I don't mean that they are equal as in standing. I am jsut saying that every type of Democracy is a Democracy, sorry if you misunderstood that.
Also where is this "true democracy" defined? Haven't found any "true democracy" on Wikipedia or Dictionary.com. Looked it up in two encyclopedias...no "true democracy" anywhere.

Cuba is not a Democracy. Funnily enough it is a Republic...but that's another point.

Originally posted by Bardock42
No, I said the US is a Democracy. That is my point. This "true democracy" you are talkiong about I don't really know. What is this "true democracy" ..... are you jsut not able to use the real term which is "direct democracy"?

Also I don't mean that they are equal as in standing. I am jsut saying that every type of Democracy is a Democracy, sorry if you misunderstood that.
Also where is this "true democracy" defined? Haven't found any "true democracy" on Wikipedia or Dictionary.com. Looked it up in two encyclopedias...no "true democracy" anywhere.

Cuba is not a Democracy. Funnily enough it is a Republic...but that's another point.

Originally posted by Bardock42
It is a true and a real democracy though. Maybe you should read the definitions of democracy again. Everything that fits that definition is a "true" democracy.

Again Democracy and Republic describe not the same thing. Something can be a Democracy and a Republic (USA, Germany, France....), something can be a Democracy and a Monarchy (England, Spain (I think)), but nothing can be a Republic and a Monarchy...for example.

I rest my case.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
I rest my case.

Yes, I am using the word true here as it is defined in the english languge, therefore "true" democracy, you on the othjer hand seem to think there is some sort of system that is called "true democracy". There isn't. What you are referring to is "direct democracy" sometimes called "pure democracy". I understand I am talking semanticas again, but you brought it up and well..I am right.

No. No, you're not. You are arguing semantics, which is misinterpreting that "true democracy", and "Pure democracy" and "direct democracy" are somehow not all synonymous at all, but "democracy" and "republic" are. That's called being a semantic fool. Now, stop before you further prove that you wear a veil of ignorance.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
No. No, you're not. You are arguing semantics, which is misinterpreting that "true democracy", and "Pure democracy" and "direct democracy" are somehow not all synonymous at all, but "democracy" and "republic" are. That's called being a semantic fool. Now, stop before you further prove that you wear a veil of ignorance.

"true democracy" may be referred to as "direct democracy" that doesn't mean that "representative Democracy" isn't a "true" Democracy.

So are wel all in one line that the US is a Republic and a representative Democracy?

If not I would liek to know how the US is not a representative Democracy. Does it not fit the Definition of Democracy.?

Again, I never ever...ever...claimed that the US is a pure Democracy or a direct Democracy. Never.

Originally posted by Bardock42
"true democracy" may be referred to as "direct democracy" that doesn't mean that "representative Democracy" isn't a "true" Democracy.

Bardock, pull your head out of your ass. A representative democracy, especially the United States, is the least democratic of all the indrect democracies in existance and even those proposed but not used. Therefore, arguing that it is a true democracy, over delegative or even direct democracy (Or equating it with those two), is pulling a semantic failure. Now, stop. Please.

So are wel all in one line that the US is a Republic and a representative Democracy?

If not I would liek to know how the US is not a representative Democracy. Does it not fit the Definition of Democracy.?

Again, I never ever...ever...claimed that the US is a pure Democracy or a direct Democracy. Never.

Go back and read all of your posts. Maybe there's some hidden code in there that I missed, but last I checked you said republic = true democracy. That's wrong.

Originally posted by Alliance

1. Democracies do not have constitutions. People in federal repulics rule by law, not through popular opinon (as in democracy).
2. Independant states

NEITHER of these are included in representative democracies.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Bardock, pull your head out of your ass. A representative democracy, [b]especially the United States, is the least democratic of all the indrect democracies in existance and even those proposed but not used. Therefore, arguing that it is a true democracy, over delegative or even direct democracy (Or equating it with those two), is pulling a semantic failure. Now, stop. Please.

Go back and read all of your posts. Maybe there's some hidden code in there that I missed, but last I checked you said republic = true democracy. That's wrong. [/B]

That does matter. Sure it may be the least democratic. But it is still a Democracy. That is what this debate was about from the beginning. You now try to claim my side as your point all along. Doesn't work.
Again never have I argued it's a direct democracy. Please produce evidence where I did. It is a Democracy....not a direct one, but a Democracy.

No, no hidden code, where did I say that Republic equates to direct Democracy? That is the most stupid thing ever said. Republic doesn't need to be democratic at all.

Originally posted by Alliance
NEITHER of these are included in representative democracies.

Where did you get those from? And why are they all brown and smelly?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Well, I think we learn more about the US Election Process than you learn about the German one. Would make sense, since the German one isn't really to important to the US (although better).

Yes, the US is a Republic. That is true. Every piece of that statement is true. Now the next one: The US is a Democracy. Yes, also true. Bioth true statements. Clear?