Originally posted by StyleTime
Nah. I never said Chuck was the same as he was before, but this fight wouldn't be seen so negatively without past string of losses. He looked a lot better than he has in a while. I hate to be "that guy", but I am going to be "that guy." I honestly feel he just got caught this time.
When compared with his performance against Shogun, sure he looked pretty good against Franklin. However, when juxtaposed to his 01-05 prime self, it's pretty obvious his performance wasn't up to par.
Like I stated before, the fact that he looked better says more about Franklin than Chuck, imo.
Originally posted by StyleTime
I'm not seeing your point here. Rich represents a different challenge and may have exposed Chuck earlier than Rampage did.
Lol, no. The Chuck of old was winning stand up wars with Overeem and Belfort (you know, the guy that owned Rich?), both of whom are better strikers than Rich. Franklin doesn't bring anything to the table that Chuck hadn't already bested.
Rich would've been exposed to the canvas. Hard.
Originally posted by StyleTime
I said it before, but I think I've been misunderstood. I'm not defending Chuck and I haven't defended any of his other losses if I recall correctly. I just don't see his last fight as the reason for him to retire. That said, I've no problems with him retiring. I wouldn't be very disturbed either. I've no real feelings towards or against Chuck as a fighter to be honest.
I understand perfectly what you're saying, however there are implications in your statements that you may, or may not be aware of.
Regardless, it's obvious that Chuck's body just isn't responding well to all the trauma of fighting, which is to be expected at age 40. Nobody can stay on top forever. Prime Chuck could have taken a shot to the dome from a lead pipe and would have asked for more. Now? Well...
So yeah, retirement is best. I don't want to see him end up like Ali in his later years.
Originally posted by Dr. Leg Kick
Irrelevant post? What does that have to do with Babalu's muay thai background. You're trying to say that since he got TKO'd by Chuck, then it holds no water?Regardless, great TKO win for Chuck.
You misinterpreted my post.
I wasn't trying to dog Babalu's muay thai, I was simply showcasing how much of an animal Chuck was in his prime, and that I'm going to greatly miss his era of dominance.
I have absolutely nothing against Babalu. He's a legend.
Originally posted by Dr. Leg Kick
How?
Because Cyborg isn't that great of a fighter. And considering Zaromskis is a much more technical striker, most were predicting he'd pick Cyborg apart on the feet.
MMA weekend. Taped Bellator on @6pm EST. Ultimate Finale on @9pm on Spike. WEC49 on tomorrow on VS.
Originally posted by batdude123
When compared with his performance against Shogun, sure he looked pretty good against Franklin. However, when juxtaposed to his 01-05 prime self, it's pretty obvious his performance wasn't up to par.Like I stated before, the fact that he looked better says more about Franklin than Chuck, imo.
Originally posted by batdude123
Lol, no. The Chuck of old was winning stand up wars with Overeem and Belfort (you know, the guy that owned Rich?), both of whom are better strikers than Rich. Franklin doesn't bring anything to the table that Chuck hadn't already bested.Rich would've been exposed to the canvas. Hard.
As for Overeem, he wasn't nearly the same deal as he is now.
Rich may have lost against Pre Crisis Chuck, but he had a good shot.
I never knew you were such a Chuck fanboy batdude123. ha-som
Originally posted by batdude123
I understand perfectly what you're saying, however there are implications in your statements that you may, or may not be aware of.Regardless, it's obvious that Chuck's body just isn't responding well to all the trauma of fighting, which is to be expected at age 40. Nobody can stay on top forever. Prime Chuck could have taken a shot to the dome from a lead pipe and would have asked for more. Now? Well...
I admitted his chin isn't quite the same, but I'll be honest with you. Shogun and Rampage would beat Chuck at any point in his career. Rashad and Rich had good chances to do the same. People keeping falling back on this age issue, when he might have lost these guys even back then. Toss in Anderson Silva and Lyoto Machida and one starts to realize the possibility that everyone else got better while Chuck....stagnated.
I'm not saying age is irrelevant, but it feels like fans try to rationalize his losses away sometimes. Crocop has encountered a similar problem. Is he old/lostheart or has he just been surpassed?
Oh, and I have something for you guys. Bas returns to the ring! That Lane girl is a beast.
biscuits
Originally posted by StyleTime
When a fighter gets nailed after exchanging evenly with his opponent, I usually avoid calling it "ownage." My view on the Chuck/Franklin fight mirrors this ideology and my view remains the same on similar fights; I certainly can't say Rich got "owned" against Vitor and feel it a fair assessment.
There were hardly any exchanges. Most of it was just a feeling-out process. However, when they did start throwing punches, it was obvious Vitor had the quicker hand speed, which allowed him to land.
Originally posted by StyleTime
As for Overeem, he wasn't nearly the same deal as he is now.
You're right. That was before he put on 50 pounds of roid muscle, and started beating up cans over in Japan.
Originally posted by StyleTime
Rich may have lost against Pre Crisis Chuck, but he had a good shot.
Sorry, I don't see it happening.
Originally posted by StyleTime
I never knew you were such a Chuck fanboy batdude123. ha-som
Well now you do.
Originally posted by StyleTime
You're extracting more than I injected and just calling it pretext, B-Dizzle.
lol.
You claim innocence, and then in the very next paragraph, do exactly what I was talking about.
Originally posted by StyleTime
I admitted his chin isn't quite the same, but I'll be honest with you. Shogun and Rampage would beat Chuck at any point in his career. Rashad and Rich had good chances to do the same. People keeping falling back on this age issue, when he might have lost these guys even back then. Toss in Anderson Silva and Lyoto Machida and one starts to realize the possibility that everyone else got better while Chuck....stagnated.
Isn't "quite" the same? Old Chuck was taking full-on headkicks from the likes of Vitor and Guy Mezger without even being rocked. He was basically the Big Nog of the lhw division.
People never talk about it, but Chuck was pretty seriously injured the first time he and Rampage fought in PRIDE back in 03. Which is hilarious to me, because people love to justify Shogun's loss to Forrest due to his injury. Hypocrisy.
Shogun vs. prime Chuck would be an awesome fight. Both love to exchange/throw punches in bunches. Though, I wouldn't be so quick to give the advantage to Shogun standing. Lil Nog was rockin' and droppin' him on the feet, and Shogun basically won that fight due to takedowns and ground 'n pound. Same deal with Overeem. Either way, it would be a war I'd pay to see.
I doubt Rashad would beat Chuck during his reign of terror. Chuck's takedown defense is/was legendary, and Rashad's striking isn't very polished. Plus his chin isn't very good.
Rich? Lol, no.
Originally posted by StyleTime
I'm not saying age is irrelevant, but it feels like fans try to rationalize his losses away sometimes.
Age is absolutely relevant to the discussion of a fighter's prime. Unless you think Trevor Berbick would have actually had a chance against Ali back in the 60's. 😂
Originally posted by StyleTime
Crocop has encountered a similar problem. Is he old/lostheart or has he just been surpassed
No, this quite clearly isn't the same Cro Cop that was beating Remy Bojansky, Peter Aerts, and Jerome LeBanner back in K-1. 😐
Those 3 guys make MMA strikers look like total jokes.
Originally posted by batdude123
There were hardly any exchanges. Most of it was just a feeling-out process. However, when they did start throwing punches, it was obvious Vitor had the quicker hand speed, which allowed him to land.
Originally posted by batdude123
You claim innocence, and then in the very next paragraph, do exactly what I was talking about.
Originally posted by batdude123
People never talk about it, but Chuck was pretty seriously injured the first time he and Rampage fought in PRIDE back in 03. Which is hilarious to me, because people love to justify Shogun's loss to Forrest due to his injury. Hypocrisy.Shogun vs. prime Chuck would be an awesome fight. Both love to exchange/throw punches in bunches. Though, I wouldn't be so quick to give the advantage to Shogun standing. Lil Nog was rockin' and droppin' him on the feet, and Shogun basically won that fight due to takedowns and ground 'n pound. Same deal with Overeem. Either way, it would be a war I'd pay to see.
I doubt Rashad would beat Chuck during his reign of terror. Chuck's takedown defense is/was legendary, and Rashad's striking isn't very polished. Plus his chin isn't very good.
Rich? Lol, no.
I can see the merit in your assessments on these other fights. I'm not sure if I acknowledge the same likelihood though.
Originally posted by batdude123
Age is absolutely relevant to the discussion of a fighter's prime. Unless you think Trevor Berbick would have actually had a chance against Ali back in the 60's. 😂No, this quite clearly isn't the same Cro Cop that was beating Remy Bojansky, Peter Aerts, and Jerome LeBanner back in K-1. 😐
Those 3 guys make MMA strikers look like total jokes.
I agree with you here. I'm simply highlighting the other side. We also have to remember that K-1 striking doesn't always translate to
MMA striking.
Alas, I wonder about the future of our discussion. Under scrutiny, our views don't strictly oppose each other. Our primary difference is how
we view Chuck's decline (and Rich's abilities). I don't completely reject the idea that Chuck is simply too old, but that rationale alone does not afford me the same comfort it affords you. Of course, there's nothing wrong with your confidence in that stance; however, it will probably forever divide us on that count. Once our positions are established formally, this discourse loses most of its value.
In short, I'll drop it.
Originally posted by StyleTime
There is a key difference between Rampage/Chuck and Shogun/Forrest. Chuck was not the favorite in that match, so no one looked for excuses when he lost; Shogun's fight wasn't quite the same. Not only was Rua the heavy favorite, but he appeared fairly dominant until a noticeable decline in his performance. When a fighter starts underperforming in the middle of a fight, people will seek out justification.
But the fact remains that Chuck had a bad injury that affected his performance against Rampage. The point stands.
Originally posted by StyleTime
I agree with you here. I'm simply highlighting the other side. We also have to remember that K-1 striking doesn't always translate to
MMA striking.
It's basically the same aside from a few minor details. In any case, K-1 level striking is quite a few notches above MMA striking, which I think we can both agree on.
Originally posted by StyleTime
Alas, I wonder about the future of our discussion. Under scrutiny, our views don't strictly oppose each other. Our primary difference is how
we view Chuck's decline (and Rich's abilities). I don't completely reject the idea that Chuck is simply too old, but that rationale alone does not afford me the same comfort it affords you. Of course, there's nothing wrong with your confidence in that stance; however, it will probably forever divide us on that count. Once our positions are established formally, this discourse loses most of its value.In short, I'll drop it.
Let me put it like this...
Chuck's style does not lend itself well to an aging fighter. Just like Roy Jones Jr. has shown in his last few fights. Better?
You and your damn compromises. uhuh