Just saw this. Apparently the first match between a pro female and pro male goes down this weekend. Thoughts?
http://www.mmafighting.com/2013/12/17/5219686/shooto-brazil-to-feature-man-vs-women-fight-on-friday
http://msn.foxsports.com/ufc/haymaker/male-vs-female-fight-booked-at-brazil-mma-event-121713
Originally posted by ?YLLAER
I don't know if we're quite ready to start referring to Pettis as some kind of submission artist; sure he just scored a submission victory over a truly legit guy in Bendo but it's not exactly the norm. This isn't Frank Mir we're talking about.Charles Oliveira by comparison has a far greater reputation for submitting guys off of his back and Frankie didn't really have too much of a problem taking him down at will. Frankie is probably the last guy that would be afraid of taking someone down in fear of being submittied, he has a very legit ground game himself, and has escaped extremely dangerous positions on the ground on multiple occasions.
I think Pettis was just a bad matchup for Hendo, I think he has his number and that it's almost entirely because he has the psychological edge over him. Bendo didn't really seem himself, he came across as being afraid to stand with Pettis and tried to grind it out as much as he could. Bendo is at his best when he mixes things up but he came across as being far too tentative against Pettis and basically wanted to outwrestle him and minimising the standing exchanges as much as possible.
I also think Bendo was probably still hurt from those body kicks when they went to the ground and physically just wasn't able to stop the submission in time, it seems to be what Pettis is crediting the submission with and if you look at Bendo in previous fights he's usually far more solid and mobile in that position.
Frankie has the better footwork and boxing going into the matchup and has a number of counter measures against Pettis's most dangerous weapons in his kicks - he's got the best takedowns at that division and will probably be able to take him down every time Pettis throws one, he's pretty much the best in the business at catching kicks, and if a few land, he's basically so tough that he would in all likelihood not even be phased by them - I mean Jose Aldo's leg kicks by all accounts are some of the most powerful strikes you can be on the receiving end of and Frankie took a number of them without ever slowing his pace and changing up his footwork for the entire 5 rounds. I see him flustering Pettis with his footwork, his pace, mixing up his striking and wrestling, and making him pay every time he throws a kick - and when it gets to the ground defending against any submission attempts. Anybody can get finished but I think Frankie might be the single most unfinishable fighter in the UFC, so I see it being a clear decision for him.
Pettis's UFC run has really not been particularly impressive aside from the fight with Bendo, I mean he lost to Clay Guida, got a split decision victory over Jeremy Stephens, Joe Lauzon was never truly a very good fighter and Donald Cerrone hasn't looked all that great in his last few fights either. Frankie has been far more impressive in that same time span and has the tools to make him a bad matchup for Pettis. The fights with BJ, Gray, Bendo and Aldo were largely so competitive because he was facing guys that could give him trouble standing but were also really good wrestlers themselves (defensively in BJ and Jose's cases) - in Pettis he faces a guy with pretty mediocre wrestling.
I realize this account is restricted and this is an old post, but I never saw it before now and I just wanted to bring up a few points for others reading.
The fact that he hasn't done it on a regular basis doesn't mean much. Pettis has shown very high level BJJ in many of his fights, and pulled off the arm bar expertly on Ben Henderson. There's no reason to suggest that he couldn't do that to Frankie. Pettis is much better off of his back than anyone Frankie has taken down (this includes Oliveira, who hasn't been in there with very many strong grapplers compared to Pettis).
Bendo did what he should have done, and that's attempt to wear Pettis down against the cage so that he would have an easier time standing with him as the fight progressed. This is what he did to Nate Diaz and it worked beautifully, it's just that Pettis fought his way out of it and created some distance to strike.
Pettis had Bendo completely trapped in that arm bar, the way he had it locked up Bendo really had nowhere to go and was risking serious injury by staying in it for too long. He probably was hurt from those body kicks, but that doesn't really take anything away from Pettis.
Frankie has the most immensely overrated boxing and footwork in MMA. He's constantly putting himself in danger with the way he circles, constantly bouncing (a lot of wasted movement), and gets dropped by everyone he fights. Pettis has shown much better footwork (he circles comfortably either way and never right into his opponent's power hand), and is excellent at moving his opponent toward the cage where he does his best work. Trust me, Pettis has a huge advantage with the footwork.
Pettis has also shown much better hands, he catches his opponents with very nice, clean counters (this is what he did to Cerrone). Pettis will move in and hop one way or the other, making his opponents turn into his punches doubling the power of them, and he knows how to get out of range after this. This level of footwork is much higher than Frankie's. Frankie has shown serious defensive weaknesses and his offense is nothing special either.
Pettis is excellent at using his footwork to stifle wrestlers. He spends a good amount of his time backing up to make them want to press forward and throw punches so he can counter them.
Idk how Frankie has been more impressive, his best win in years is Oliveira (who lost to Cerrone, who lost to Pettis), and Pettis recently finished the guy who beat Frankie twice.
BJ Penn and Aldo have both shown better TDD than Pettis, but Pettis has shown a much more competent BJJ game of his back, and that changes everything. His wrestling isn't bad either, he stifled Ben Henderson in their rematch and only got taken down because he failed with a cartwheel kick (which imo, he needs to just do away with).
Originally posted by Insomniatric
Bendo did what he should have done, and that's attempt to wear Pettis down against the cage so that he would have an easier time standing with him as the fight progressed. This is what he did to Nate Diaz and it worked beautifully, it's just that Pettis fought his way out of it and created some distance to strike.Idk how Frankie has been more impressive, his best win in years is Oliveira (who lost to Cerrone, who lost to Pettis), and Pettis recently finished the guy who beat Frankie twice.
Originally posted by Insomniatric
His wrestling isn't bad either, he stifled Ben Henderson in their rematch and only got taken down because he failed with a cartwheel kick (which imo, he needs to just do away with).
Very depressing what happened to Silva tonight. Hope he recovers quickly.
Props to Weidman. Can't really discredit the guy. It'll be interesting to see if he can keep it up.
Rousey totally dominated Tate. Pretty crazy how she's slated for February.
Barnett's walk-out was so epic and the match was exact opposite.
Meh, last two events were disappointing.
Yeah, the Silva match was kinda disappointing thanks to the ending. It was a nice block from Weidman though.
Tate vs Rousey was a great fight. I really wish Miesha would drop the whole "I am going to outgrapple her, damnit!" mentality though. Not that she necessarily would have won on the feet, but I feel like working on that area and using her wrestling defensively may have worked to her advantage. She kept getting her shots reverse pretty easily by Ronda.
Even though he wasn't my favorite fighter, I am a little saddened that he's leaving. It's the end of an era, and Silva is one of the last fighters that was on the rise when I first got in to the sport. I'm excited for future fights, but I feel nostalgic about the past. I felt the same when Fedor faded.
That said, let's move on to Machida/Weidman and Vitor/Weidman. These fights will happen sooner than later, so what better time to open a discussion on them. How do you all see these going down?
Both Machida and Vitor are strikers, but do pose some challenges to Weidman that Silva didn't. Machida is notoriously difficult to take down(threw Davis around a lot), and in fact has taken down guys like Dan Henderson. Additionally, his karate base just throws people off in general. Combined with his power, I'd say Machida has a pretty good shot at taking out Weidman.
Vitor has TRT. ha-som
I don't think Vitor is as big a threat to him as people make him out to be. I think Weidman is good enough defensively on the feet to survive long enough to set up the takedowns, and that's if he needs to, when he can most likely take him down at will. His BJJ is better, and Vitor is known for fading later on in the fight, so he's got a puncher's chance and I think his best chance to win is to explode on him early on in the fight, but I don't think his chances are all that great.
Likewise with Jacare people seem to think he's also one of the more dangerous matchups, but I personally see Weidman using his wrestling defensively to keep the fight standing and slowly picking him apart and outpointing him over five rounds.
I think Anderson (who btw has apparently not retired and is expected to be fully recovered after about 6 months) still has a chance to beat him; his TDD has actually looked pretty good I feel over the two fights, as as his ability to defend himself off of his back, and I think in both fights he was possibly starting to take over leading up to both highly unusual endings. We know that his cardio is good enough to last all 5 rounds, even while being dominated, whereas Weidman still has a questionable gas tank and I still feel, minus any strange occurences as has happened in the two fights, that if the fight stays standing long enough Anderson would eventually finish Weidman. Still, I'd probably favour Weidman slightly but I feel either have a pretty good chance to win.
I think Machida and Rashad if he ever moved down, are by far his biggest threats. Machida's known for having incredible takedown defence against much stronger wrestlers and has a massive advantage on the feet, and Rashad was a great wrestler at the higher weight class, and also superior in the stand up. Also, strangely enough I feel Bisping might be his third biggest threat; he's got very good TDD as well as the ability to get up to his feet from bottom position that I feel he can keep it standing against Chris, where I think he'll be able to outpoint him, not to mention his incredible cardio which will only be of huge benefit in the later rounds.
If Chael moves back to MW, I see the wrestling being neutralised and Chris winning the standup, easily, and Mousasi will get taken down at will imo, as would probably Shogun if he moved down. Dan Henderson has a puncher's chance of course but I see him probably getting outpointed.
He probably beats everyone else pretty easily.
Elite BJJ or not, Jones has excellent submissions and submission defense. Most other fighters would have tapped from that arm bar.
Weidman really has yet to threaten any good BJJ guys with submissions in MMA. He attempted a heel hook on Anderson, and it didn't even come close. Weidman is excellent positionally, but his submissions are nothing special. He talked about how he would tap Anderson, but really he could hardly get past the guard.
I'd give Vitor the slight edge with submissions in this fight.
While Jones you could argue has good technique with certain applications of BJJ (which I would imagine he learnt through Greg Jackson's Gaidojutsu which incorporates certain techniques from BJJ), particularly offensive ones, his submissions are mostly achieved through a combination of wrestling, long arms, hurting his opponent first and great killer instinct; he rocked Machida and then applied the choke in lightning quick time while he was still hurt, likewise he had been delivering a one-sided beatdown on Vitor and then submitted him when he was mostly exhausted and seemed to have mentally quit. Jones did not defend the armbar properly but rather toughed it out (Jones' arm apparently popped and according to Vitor he stopped applying as much pressure the moment he heard it) and Jones himself admitted that he probably neglected his BJJ a little bit in the post fight press conference. Vitor almost submitting Jones is a testament to Vitor's good BJJ, Jones's deficiency in BJJ and Jones' long arms which make him especially susceptible to armbars.
Weidman hasn't really had many professional fights but still has a few submission wins to his name and as for them not being against very good BJJ guys, it's not particularly easy to submit guys at the higher levels of BJJ; you've seen some of the highest level BJJ guys in the world from Roger Gracie to Ronaldo Souza fail to submit guys (with far less impressive BJJ resumes) in MMA fights that last long on the ground and often when they do come it's usually due to circumstance. Weidman is far more proven than Vitor in actual BJJ competitions; by all accounts he's something of a BJJ prodigy, having won the ADCC trials after something like 3 months of training, winning every match by submission, and then going on to have a competitive match with Andre Galvao (who's one of the best submission wrestlers in the world) in a highly active contest that ended in decision where they both continously threated each other with submissions. That's a high level performance at a level of competition Vitor has never experienced.
As I said Anderson defended very well on the gorund, is a legit black belt, it's not very easy to submit guys at higher levels of BJJ, and the leg lock is a very low percentage submission move in general. It's not really a huge mark against Weidman that he failed to submit him.
By all accounts Weidman should easily have the BJJ advantage going into this fight.
Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
While Jones you could argue has good technique with certain applications of BJJ (which I would imagine he learnt through Greg Jackson's Gaidojutsu which incorporates certain techniques from BJJ), particularly offensive ones, his submissions are mostly achieved through a combination of wrestling, long arms, hurting his opponent first and great killer instinct; he rocked Machida and then applied the choke in lightning quick time while he was still hurt, likewise he had been delivering a one-sided beatdown on Vitor and then submitted him when he was mostly exhausted and seemed to have mentally quit. Jones did not defend the armbar properly but rather toughed it out (Jones' arm apparently popped and according to Vitor he stopped applying as much pressure the moment he heard it) and Jones himself admitted that he probably neglected his BJJ a little bit in the post fight press conference. Vitor almost submitting Jones is a testament to Vitor's good BJJ, Jones's deficiency in BJJ and Jones' long arms which make him especially susceptible to armbars.Weidman hasn't really had many professional fights but still has a few submission wins to his name and as for them not being against very good BJJ guys, it's not particularly easy to submit guys at the higher levels of BJJ; you've seen some of the highest level BJJ guys in the world from Roger Gracie to Ronaldo Souza fail to submit guys (with far less impressive BJJ resumes) in MMA fights that last long on the ground and often when they do come it's usually due to circumstance. Weidman is far more proven than Vitor in actual BJJ competitions; by all accounts he's something of a BJJ prodigy, having won the ADCC trials after something like 3 months of training, winning every match by submission, and then going on to have a competitive match with Andre Galvao (who's one of the best submission wrestlers in the world) in a highly active contest that ended in decision where they both continously threated each other with submissions. That's a high level performance at a level of competition Vitor has never experienced.
As I said Anderson defended very well on the gorund, is a legit black belt, it's not very easy to submit guys at higher levels of BJJ, and the leg lock is a very low percentage submission move in general. It's not really a huge mark against Weidman that he failed to submit him.
By all accounts Weidman should easily have the BJJ advantage going into this fight.
I'm know that Jones is not some BJJ master, but my point was that he's still very difficult to submit because of his size, wrestling, and GnP. Similar to how Cain Velasquez is not a technically sound striker, but his wrestling and pressure make him very difficult to stand with. There are many top level fighters who would have tapped from that arm bar.
I don't put too much stock into what Jones said at the PC, immediately after he fought Gustafsson he attributed Gus's successes during to fight to him (Jones) neglecting his wrestling.
I know it's not easy to submit high level BJJ practitioners, that's why I don't think Weidman will submit Vitor.
Vitor is no joke in pure BJJ, Ricardo Arona said he's the best guy he ever rolled with, and their match was highly competitive.
I think Weidman is better at controlling position, but I give the submission advantage (slightly) to Vitor.