Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
It's too bad Machida's fighting the person who may be stylistically his worst matchup in Gegard Mousasi. I'm rooting for Lyoto but there's a fairly good chance Mousasi beats him (and then goes on to lose to any elite wrestler).
Given how inconsistent Mousasi is, I wouldn't be surprised if he gets destroyed by Machida.
Originally posted by Insomniatric
I'm know that Jones is not some BJJ master, but my point was that he's still very difficult to submit because of his size, wrestling, and GnP. Similar to how Cain Velasquez is not a technically sound striker, but his wrestling and pressure make him very difficult to stand with. There are many top level fighters who would have tapped from that arm bar.I don't put too much stock into what Jones said at the PC, immediately after he fought Gustafsson he attributed Gus's successes during to fight to him (Jones) neglecting his wrestling.
I know it's not easy to submit high level BJJ practitioners, that's why I don't think Weidman will submit Vitor.
Vitor is no joke in pure BJJ, Ricardo Arona said he's the best guy he ever rolled with, and their match was highly competitive.
I think Weidman is better at controlling position, but I give the submission advantage (slightly) to Vitor.
Well when it comes to his size, his long arms specifically, it actually makes him more vulnerable to things like armbars, as does an active GNP (prior to hurting the guy on bottom).
I'm not saying that Weidman will definitely submit Vitor but that he simply, on paper, has the advantage, and I certainly wouldn't consider Vitor's chances of submitting Weidman off of his back even remotely high.
I acknowledge that Vitor has an impressive BJJ resume himself but he's never come close to reaching the heights that Weidman has, with a few months of training no less.
Vitor hasn't demonstrated great TDD at all and has been taken down pretty easily by wrestlers throughout his career (as recently as 2012) and realistically Weidman should be able to do so with ease and use his far superior wrestling and superior BJJ, as well as some powerful GnP, to win the ground game pretty easily, where I think he will be smart enough to take this fight to.
Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Well when it comes to his size, his long arms specifically, it actually makes him more vulnerable to things like armbars, as does an active GNP (prior to hurting the guy on bottom).I'm not saying that Weidman will definitely submit Vitor but that he simply, on paper, has the advantage, and I certainly wouldn't consider Vitor's chances of submitting Weidman off of his back even remotely high.
I acknowledge that Vitor has an impressive BJJ resume himself but he's never come close to reaching the heights that Weidman has, with a few months of training no less.
Vitor hasn't demonstrated great TDD at all and has been taken down pretty easily by wrestlers throughout his career (as recently as 2012) and realistically Weidman should be able to do so with ease and use his far superior wrestling and superior BJJ, as well as some powerful GnP, to win the ground game pretty easily, where I think he will be smart enough to take this fight to.
It's not easy to submit a wrestler as big as Jones, long arms or not. Vitor is the only guy to even threaten him with a submission, despite the fact that Jones has been on the ground with multiple BJJ black belts. Jones wasn't attempting any GnP on him when Vitor rolled for the arm bar.
Weidman's arms are pretty long as well, and he will be looking to hit Vitor with GnP if he gets him down, so Vitor may very well catch him with that arm bar as well. I'm not saying it's going to happen or that it's likely to happen, just that it's not out of the realm of possibility and Weidman may have his hands full with Vitor on the ground.
Like I said, I give Weidman the positional advantage, and a very slight advantage to Vitor with submissions, because his submission game in MMA is slightly more proven than Weidman's.
Eh, he's submitted like 3 guys in over 30 fights with no real BJJ accolades to speak of. He's also been submitted twice. Weidman has just as many submissions to his name in 11 fights and hasn't ever been submitted. Not to mention superior performance in BJJ competition outside of MMA. I just don't see how you give Vitor the advantage in pure submissions.
Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Eh, he's submitted like 3 guys in over 30 fights with no real BJJ accolades to speak of. He's also been submitted twice. Weidman has just as many submissions to his name in 11 fights and hasn't ever been submitted. Not to mention superior performance in BJJ competition outside of MMA. I just don't see how you give Vitor the advantage in pure submissions.
Vitor RNC'd Anthony Johnson (submitting a big wrestler like that is not an easy task in MMA), and broke Jones's arm with an arm bar. Weidman hasn't done anything like that in MMA. One of Weidman's sub wins is against Reubem Lopes, who is 0-1 with his only fight being against Weidman. Vitor didn't get submitted in his first 11 fights either, and won 2 by submission.
Getting submitted twice in 30+ fights is not too shabby, especially when both of the guys he got submitted by have good submission skills and were both much larger than he is. You really think Jones wouldn't submit Weidman, or that Weidman would ever threaten Jones on the ground, let alone break his arm?
I give Vitor a very slight edge with submissions because he's threatened his opponents with them more. I'm not saying he'll tap Weidman out the second they hit the mat.
We've seen much crazier sub wins than Vitor subbing Weidman (Chael choking Shogun out).
Agree to disagree I guess. Regardless of who has the edge in pure submission move technique, I think you'd agree that Chris Weidman easily has the ability to put Vitor on his back, dictate position and keep the fight on the ground and that Vitor's chances of pulling of a submission against a strong wrestler in a dominant position with great BJJ accolades is virtually non-existent. I also personally think that he's defensively better than anybody Vitor's ever finished standing and will be good enough at not getting KO'd for as long the fight stays standing.
I was thinking a bit more about the Chael matchup actually and while I think Weidman is far more skilled, if he still has issues with his cardio, it would be interesting if Chael's great cardio and relentless pressure could prove to be Chris's kryptonite.
What do people think about Yoel Romero? Probably the best pure wrestler in MMA right now.
I do agree that Weidman can put him down and will probably get the better of him from the top position, but I don't think it's nearly impossible for Vitor to get a sub. Do I think it will happen? Not really, but I personally don't think it's as unlikely as you're saying it is. Just my opinion.
Weidman has good defense standing, but he's never fought anyone who can chase as well as Vitor. This could make a very big difference in the fight. Vitor's style is not as technically sound as Silva's but the explosiveness of it may catch Weidman by surprise.
Chael presents an interesting match-up. He's very tough and would definitely be the best wrestler Weidman has faced in MMA, and also has great cardio.
It would be interesting to see what Weidman does if Chael could get him on his back.
I think Weidman would win early though, probably by submission.
Personally, I'd rather see Weidman fight Rashad Evans (if he moves down).
I've only seen one fight with Romero, and I thought he was entertaining. I was impressed with his cardio. His style was very active and it just about went the distance, yet in the post fight interview he wasn't breathing heavy at all. I'd like to see him fight Uriah Hall.
Glad to see the activity in the thread. I do agree with the consensus that Machida is the bigger threat to Weidman, at least on paper. Rashad vs Weidman would be cool as well, and my gut feeling is that Rashad would win by KO. Rashad could stop the wrestling game cold, and I feel like he's a little faster despite probably being larger. That said Weidman does have better submissions if they do hit the ground, and he seems hungry to be champion.
Also, Cruz has vacated his bantamweight belt. Another injury has forced him out of the fight with Barao unfortunately.
http://espn.go.com/mma/story/_/id/10252465/dominick-cruz-ufc-169-groin-injury-vacates-title
Originally posted by JayDaDon
I just really REALLY want to see Machida vs Belfort at this point.
Anderson said he'll be back, and I believe the doctor's said he'll be fully capable of fighting after recovery.
Any way you look at it though, you have to believe that he may never be the same again. An injury like that is a tragedy for any fighter, especially one like Silva who relies on his quick footwork more than almost anyone. Not to mention, he's 38 years old.
And you just know his opponents will be going after that leg now, hopefully they get James Irvin'd.
Originally posted by Epicurus
I did. I provided reasons for why Dos Santos' fluke shot was a lucky punch. I claimed that and upset win counts as a lucky win. A lot of official commentators were rooting for Cain in their first rematch as well. Cain was far from an underdog in that fight(irrespective of fanvotes on who they thought would come out the victor).Lol, talk about irony. You do realize your photos did the opposite of your intent; that they vindicated my point. Jones without dropping the extra weight was roughly the same size as JDS. You being too blind to see it is on you, not me.
I said that I don't argue over PMs. Bring your arguments to the thread, and I'll play, otherwise either put up or shut up.
I already anticipate another post with a desperate attempt to get the last word in, despite you repeatedly apologizing to people on this thread for derailing it with this argument. 😂
I provided actual reasons for why there is no such thing as a "lucky punch" and even showed you the techniques JDS used to KO Cain, and how he set him up, and also pointed out the differences in Cain's game plan for the rematches. Your lack of knowledge of this sport makes me chuckle. You confuse skill with luck, or maybe you're just in denial. Cain was an underdog in the betting odds, not sure how a commentator's opinion is more important than anyone else's. I also don't see how rooting for a fighter means you think he's going to win.
Those pictures had them at 10-15 lbs apart with the lighter man having a higher body fat percentage than the heavier man. When they're both in fighting shape, Jones is 23 lbs lighter than JDS. Same size though, right?