I'm a little embarassed to say it, but I haven't followed Mousasi's career as closely as I probably should have. I can't speak definitively on the match, but I feel like Machida has the edge comparing both the records.
Of course, records don't mean much after a certain point.
Where do you all see the advantages for each person?
I think Machida definitely has the ability to take Mousasi down, and provided that the striking is close, he might be able to steal rounds via takedowns. From the bottom, Mousasi has decent submissions and striking, but Machida is a legit BJJ black belt and shouldn't be in too much danger in top position.
Striking, Machida is the faster, more dynamic and trickier striker, harder to hit, and better at controlling distance, but Mousasi is more technically sound, has better timing, is the better boxer and is very durable.
The striking's very even, but I give the slight edge to Machida if it goes to decision. I think with his superior kicking arsenal and better distancing he keeps the fight in his range and outstrikes Mousasi. With a combination of striking and takedowns it's even more likely that Machida outpoints him.
Of course Machida's the much better fighter and this fight simply stylistically favours Mousasi; where Machida can handle the elite wrestlers Mousasi probably cannot.
Mousasi has a history of being controlled by wrestlers and his MMA resume is nowhere near as good as Machida's, though he's competed at a higher level in pure striking.
Another thing worth noting is that Mousasi has been training with a Karate guy that has a very similar striking style to Machida and actually defeated him in a Karate competition.
I really thought the striking was going to be closer than it was, and if Mousasi ever did start getting competitive it seemed to be more to do with Machida tiring than anything else. Machida was definitely landing the better strikes and would have probably hurt him numerous times if Mousasi's chin wasn't so damn good.
Amazing fight. Probably the most highly skilled and technical striking match in MMA history, and the few grappling exchanges were absolutely beautiful. Mousasi's butterfly guard really impressed me and his sweep was expertly executed, and Machida likewise impressed when he got Mousasi's back and his trip came out of nowhere and was so powerful.
This fight cements Machida as the best striker in MMA imo, and I think he's going to be even better at MW than he was at LHW. He's significantly faster at MW and more powerful, and as long as he works on his cardio a bit I think he'll be untouchable. That being said MW does have a number of top strikers, and while I'm guessing he still won't fight Anderson (and I have him winning that one regardless) Vitor is still a potential threat but I think Machida is just way too skilled for him (and unlike guys like Mousasi, Shogun, Rampage, and Henderson, Vitor doesn't have an iron chin and Machida can potentially hurt Vitor just as badly as Vitor can hurt him).
Mousasi was his toughest fight stylistically at MW imo and I'm pretty confidant he's going to be the champ when he gets his shot and stay champ for a long time. Machida era 2.0 baby.
Also I really have to wonder how good a striker prime Shogun would have been. I still think Machida was the better striker when they fought and that Shogun was simply a bad stylistic matchup for Machida (I think a combination of iron chin, ko power, and aggression when combined with skill is Machida's achilles heel, and he seemed to have the perfect strategy in those fights, especially in how he chose to attack Machida's legs), but if Shogun had never suffered from those injuries and been allowed to reach the apex of his physical peak with all the experience and skill he would have had at that point, he might well have become the best MMA striker ever. Too bad we never got to see it.
Shit Aldo/Pettis is going to be another incredible striking matchup, and who knows, we might also get JDS/Overeem, possibly another MW matchup between elite strikers (Anderson/Mousasi, Anderson/Vitor 2, Vitor/Mousasi, Machida/Vitor), Jones/Gustafsson 2 and if we somehow got Anderson/Machida I think my brain might explode. Some great striking matchups possibly coming up.
That fight was about what I suspected would happen, but couldn't say for certain because of my lack of knowledge on Mousasi. Mousasi took some hard shots though, and Machida certainly tried to finish a few times.
I am definitely looking forward to Machida/Weidman, assuming Vitor doesn't halt Machida's momentum.
I do agree about the Shogun thing. I think he had an unfortunate turn, although some of it is probably his fault. Injuries suck, but Shogun's new brawling style seems like a choice he makes on his own. Back when Shogun first entered UFC, I still remember hyping him to my friends who were new to MMA....and he lost to almost every top fighter he faced. They still don't believe that he was literally the number 1 LHW at one point. Everyone thought Shogun was going to have a lengthy championship reign.
So far, who do people have as the most high level striking matchups in UFC history?
I can think of:
Machida/Mousasi
Machida/Shogun 1 & 2
Anderson/Vitor
JDS/Mark Hunt
Jones/Gustafsson
Am I missing any (or anyone think some of those aren't deserving)?
Edit - Maybe Fedor/Cro Cop? I can't remember if that fight was mostly fought on the feet or not.
Originally posted by StyleTime
That fight was about what I suspected would happen, but couldn't say for certain because of my lack of knowledge on Mousasi. Mousasi took some hard shots though, and Machida certainly tried to finish a few times.I am definitely looking forward to Machida/Weidman, assuming Vitor doesn't halt Machida's momentum.
I do agree about the Shogun thing. I think he had an unfortunate turn, although some of it is probably his fault. Injuries suck, but Shogun's new brawling style seems like a choice he makes on his own. Back when Shogun first entered UFC, I still remember hyping him to my friends who were new to MMA....and he lost to almost every top fighter he faced. They still don't believe that he was literally the number 1 LHW at one point. Everyone thought Shogun was going to have a lengthy championship reign.
Agreed, though I still think the Shogun we saw against Machida is the best Shogun (in terms of striking at least) we've ever seen. He was no longer the athlete he had been in Pride, but he truly seemed to have Machida's number and fought damn near the perfect gameplan.
Of course, he looked terrible against Jones, and didn't look great against Chael (to be fair I expected him to get wrestlefvcked, just not submitted) and Henderson (brawling style hurt him badly in that fight), but he fought well against Gus and looked fantastic against Te-Huna. It'll be interesting to see how Henderson/Shogun 2 goes down.
Edit - And I've got to say the majority of MMA fans seriously piss me off. It's unreal how many people are saying that the fight sucked, that Machida was boring, that he should have finished Mousasi, that he has nothing for Weidman etc.. I feel like they'd be happier watching two random bums have a street fight than a chessmatch between two high level martial artists.
Also, regarding Souza/Carmont, Souza as usual impressed with the grappling but it's clear that aside from having a lot of power, his striking is simply nowhere near where it needs to be to be champ material.
I never expected great things from Carmont in this fight but his striking was nice and technical and his submission defence looked spectacular.
Erick Silva looked fantastic.
Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
So far, who do people have as the most high level striking matchups in UFC history?I can think of:
Machida/Mousasi
Machida/Shogun 1 & 2
Anderson/Vitor
JDS/Mark Hunt
Jones/GustafssonAm I missing any (or anyone think some of those aren't deserving)?
Edit - Maybe Fedor/Cro Cop? I can't remember if that fight was mostly fought on the feet or not.
Great list. I think I've seen Fedor/Cro Cop like once and that was years ago, so I don't really remember how it was fought.
If I had to add a couple, it would be Pettis/Cerrone, and maybe Chandler/Alvarez outside of the UFC.
Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Edit - And I've got to say the majority of MMA fans seriously piss me off. It's unreal how many people are saying that the fight sucked, that Machida was boring, that he should have finished Mousasi, that he has nothing for Weidman etc.. I feel like they'd be happier watching two random bums have a street fight than a chessmatch between two high level martial artists.
On Sherdog, there are a surprising number of people who thought Mousasi won. The overwhelming majority picked Machida, but I don't see how this decision is controversial at all.
Originally posted by Insomniatric
On Sherdog, there are a surprising number of people who thought Mousasi won. The overwhelming majority picked Machida, but I don't see how this decision is controversial at all.
Yeah I noticed that. It seems people are bringing up the fightmetric scores that have Mousasi outlanding Machida, and ignoring the fact that not all significant strikes are equal, and that a hard jab or leg kick was really as significant as it got for Mousasi where Machida was landing hard knees and head kicks. People also seem to be focusing on the fact that Mousasi was the aggressor and describing Machida as "backpeddling". I also think a lot of people gave Mousasi the round that wasn't very eventful (can't remember which) as well as the round that Mousasi swept Machida in and controlled him for a bit.
But yeah it's crazy that people could score that fight for Mousasi. At best you could give him 2 rounds imo, but I scored it 49-46 Machida. And really he should have got a point deducted for the upkick, he's done it numerous times in the past.
Originally posted by Insomniatric
Great list. I think I've seen Fedor/Cro Cop like once and that was years ago, so I don't really remember how it was fought.If I had to add a couple, it would be Pettis/Cerrone, and maybe Chandler/Alvarez outside of the UFC.
The Nate Diaz fight completely ruined my opinion of Cerrone, who I would probably otherwise still hold in pretty high regard.
Cerrone's only real weakness is a lack of head movement. He leaves himself open against guys who have good hands. The Diaz bros have an overall incomplete boxing game, but they both have very good hands and are great volume punchers who excel at using their length. I expected Nate to do that to Cerrone, because he's really the perfect style of fighter to expose that weakness that Cowboy has. Cowboy is still one of the best Muay Thai practitioners at LW despite his weaknesses though, and the clinic Pettis put on him was sensational.
I actually think Anderson > Weidman, and that he has a good chance of beating him if they fight again. Consider the following:
1. Weidman, stylistically, is a nightmare matchup for Anderson. Thus, Weidman could beat Anderson in their matchup more often than not, but rather than meaning that he is better than Anderson, could just be a reflection of his stylistic advantage in the matchup. Consider the threat Chael was to Anderson, who is by no means a great fighter. I actually think Bisping, stylistically speaking, is a bad matchup for Weidman with his superior technical striking, insane cardio, and great TDD and ability to spring back up to his feet from bottom position. He also proved to be a tough stylistic matchup for Chael in their fight. Yet there's almost no doubt that Anderson would destroy Bisping. So often it's a just a matter of styles making fights.
2. There are massive question marks over both fights. The second was decided by a freak injury. The first, Anderson basically defeated himself rather than Weidman bettering him, taking his clowning antics to a new level. He learnt from his mistake for the second fight imo, and would not make that same mistake in a third either.
3. Anderson has a history of getting dominated earlier in a fight, but surviving it, and then coming back later in the fight and getting a finish. This is partly because he's got such great cardio, durability, and is great at protecting himself on the ground, whilst also being a threat off of his back with both striking and submissions. While Weidman demonstrated that he could dominate Anderson in both fights early on, Anderson showed that he was able to protect himself in those situations, defending the submissions, GnP, his stirking from bottom looked more impressive than Weidman's form top in the second fight, and looking fresh after getting back to a standing position. Weidman meanwhile has demonstrated issues with cardio in the past, and looked noticeably less explosive after getting Anderson down in both fights.
4. Anderson's TDD has actually looked pretty good in the fights, and Weidman's takedowns have really not looked that amazing or explosive. I actually think Chael has superior takedowns to Weidman, and even he had trouble taking Anderson down in the second fight.
I also think that Anderson's starting to show definite signs of his age as well and is no longer in his prime. For one, I think that his once legendary chin has started to go. I mean, he got rocked in the clinch against Weidman, knocked out in the first fight, and even got rocked by Chael of all people in their first fight. Compare to his fights in the past where he would just eat power shots from heavy hitters with ease. I also think his legendary reflexes that we saw earlier in his career in such fights as those against Forrest or Rich have started to leave him as well, and that he's started to slow down in general, and again, getting caught by Weidman and Chael are reflective of that. So in many ways, I think that the current Anderson, while still a great fighter, is a completely different entity from a prime Anderson. One of his most dangerous positions, the clinch, in some ways relied on his great chin, where he would be willing to trade punches with his opponent. Likewise, arguably the most impressive element of his counter striking, his ability to lure his opponents in, rely on his head movement to evade attacks, and then counter with his own, was so reliant on his reflexes and athleticism. You'd also have to consider how the leg break (as well as the original loss) has affected him, not only with his kicking game, but his general morale and confidence levels going into the fight, and it's undeniable that he's lost the aura he once possessed, and that his opponents will now start seeing him in a much more human light.
My assessment for the third fight:
I think if Weidman gets Anderson to the ground, Anderson seems to be able to defend himself against the submissions. The GnP might be a different matter, but he's defended himself against it in both fights so far.
I think Anderson's capable of defending the takedowns pretty effectively now, and that it's likely he can keep the fight standing.
I think the longer the fight lasts, the more tired Weidman will get, whereas Anderson will still remain relatively fresh.
As long as the fight stays standing, while Weidman does have a lot of power and can hurt Anderson, it's clear that Anderson has the advantage. While he may not be in his prime, he's still a far more skilled and athletic striker than Chris, and perhaps just as dangerous with his attacks as he ever has been (the front kick to the face against Vitor, the knee to the solar plexus of Bonar, the knee to a downed Sonnen). Given enough time, Anderson would finish Chris, probably via TKO, if the fight remains standing.
If they have a third fight, I have Anderson winning with a 70% likelihood.
As for how they rank at MW, I personally have it:
1. Lyoto Machida
2. Anderson Silva.
3. Chris Weidman.
I have Machida beating Anderson in a close fight that goes to decision.
Originally posted by StyleTime
I really hope y'all don't jinx Machida. lol
lol. I have Machida winning that fight with a 90% likelihood. I just don't think Weidman has a chance against him.
Who would people pick between Machida and a prime Anderson, and who would you consider the overall better striker?
I think Anderson has the tools to Shogun Machida and even more effectively than Shogun did, but is missing one element that Shogun had, and that is the aggression. I think with Machida and Anderson you would see a chess match between two counter strikers, that would favour Machida.
Against others, I think Anderson definitely has the advantage in being able to finish a fight decisively. Machida has had a bunch of close striking fights against guys that he completely outclassed, and that Anderson would have likely finished decisively.
He also has the advantage with his amazing chin. Lyoto, while ebing such a great fighter, always faces a much bigger chance of getting knocked out by just a single punch that a prime Anderson wouldn't.
However, Machida has the clear advantage in being unorthodox and could likely decision strikers in a close fight, that maybe would be able to decision Anderson.
Overall I have prime Anderson as maybe the slightly more effective striker between the two, but it's basically as even as it gets, and either way are the two best strikers in MMA history.
As an overall fighter, I think Machida has the edge with his superior well roundedness and ability against wrestlers.