ufc/pride

As long as Aldo doesn't let Conor push him backwards the entire fight, punishes him with leg kicks and mixes up his takedowns, and generally fights smart I think it's his fight to lose.

Not a fan in the slightest but that was a pretty amazing performance by Tony Ferguson, considering how good Thomson is. Very slick ground game and great stand up. There seem to be quite a lot of recent TUFers in the mix at LW at the moment; you have Iaquinta, Michael Johnson, Jury, and Ferguson all competing at a pretty high level and I'm sure there are others I'm not remembering.

Frank Mir fought like an absolutely crazy person and that fight in general was pretty hilarious. Wasn't expecting that at all, but it was cool to see him get the victory.

And Wonderboy Thompson has got to have some of the slickest head kicks I've ever seen. The way he releases them is so quick and effortless while being incredibly accurate and dangerous. Potential future champ imo.

Josh Thomson's performance was downright inspirational. He lost, but few people come that close to being finished and continue fighting so hard. He looked unconscious and was still trading trading and defending somehow. Dude is 36 too, so extra props there. Kudos to Ferguson too.

Frank's fight was definitely a crowd pleaser. People love those back and forth brawls that end in a big KO.

Holly Holm completely dominated Marion Reneau. Congrats to Marion for even making it this far so late in life though. After seeing this, I wonder if we're about to see the evolution of women's striking. Joanna Jędrzejczy completely mauled Carla Esparza, and Michelle Waterson ran through Angela Magana. A lot of the top women in the past were submission specialists or wrestlers who learned striking later on. Maybe some legitimate kickboxers/boxers/karate(in Michelle's case) are really going to shake things up?

Originally posted by appletonia
There seem to be quite a lot of recent TUFers in the mix at LW at the moment; you have Iaquinta, Michael Johnson, Jury, and Ferguson all competing at a pretty high level and I'm sure there are others I'm not remembering.

I don't buy that Chad's gas tank, or him having 2 weeks notice was the reason he lost to McGregor.

I think it was a combination of things - Conor's ability to take a punch, his ability to pressure Chad in the striking exchanges, his power and accuracy, and Chad gassing/not being in optimal condition.

As for Chad gassing, I think you can attribute that to three things - body kicks, a possible adrenaline dump, and the 2 week camp.

And it's not like cardio is the only thing that would have been better had Chad had a longer training camp; his strength and conditioning would have been better which would have resulted in greater explosiveness and power, and his technique would have been more on point.

So I wouldn't blame it entirely on the camp, but it would be silly to claim that it didn't play a huge part in the fight.

What became clear from that fight was that Conor could not deal with Chad's wrestling, and his only possibility of winning was to finish him the small proprotion of the fight they stayed standing.

I can see all of the following defeating Conor based off of the fight - Jose Aldo, Chad Mendes (full training camp), Frankie Edgar, and probably Ricardo Lamas and Dennis Bermudez.

Chad said before the fight that he peaks early in training and then is overstressed the rest of the way. He then went on to say that the 2 weeks was perfect because he would peak around the time of the fight and was feeling great.

Now even he's trying to use the 2 weeks as an excuse. Because he goes right out of shape in between fights like Rampage or something?

Also lol at 2 weeks not being enough to not gas in 2 weeks. Because we're led to assume he does absolutely zero gym work in between his last fight, he helps nobody in his gym when he isn't training. It's not like he's some average joe who's done nothing for years. He's a guy who trains year round and 2-3 weeks is more than enough time to last 10 minutes doing something he's done most of his life (wrestling).

Also this where he admits it (also 3 weeks)

http://www.mmamania.com/2015/7/5/8894185/chad-mendes-says-everything-on-track-i-dont-stop-training-in-midst-of

He just got the will sapped out of him from getting his body rocked.

Do any of you guys go on the underground? Lots of fighter's post there and it's cool.

I want conar to win, but I see Aldo brutalizing him.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Chad said before the fight that he peaks early in training and then is overstressed the rest of the way. He then went on to say that the 2 weeks was perfect because he would peak around the time of the fight and was feeling great.

Now even he's trying to use the 2 weeks as an excuse. Because he goes right out of shape in between fights like Rampage or something?

Also lol at 2 weeks not being enough to not gas in 2 weeks. Because we're led to assume he does absolutely zero gym work in between his last fight, he helps nobody in his gym when he isn't training. It's not like he's some average joe who's done nothing for years. He's a guy who trains year round and 2-3 weeks is more than enough time to last 10 minutes doing something he's done most of his life (wrestling).

Also this where he admits it (also 3 weeks)

http://www.mmamania.com/2015/7/5/8894185/chad-mendes-says-everything-on-track-i-dont-stop-training-in-midst-of

He just got the will sapped out of him from getting his body rocked.

In order to hype a fight, engage in trash talk/the pre-fight mental warfare, and not give their opponent any kind of gameplanning advantage, fighters will rarely talk about any weaknesses or vulnerabilities prior to a fight. That's why the excuses almost always come out after the fight, from both the winners and the losers. Fact is there's a reason fighters (and Chad in all of his other fights) go on much longer camps and it's because it takes a lot to prepare yourself for a 3-5 round fight and potential war. Chad apparently is someone that, while not exactly getting completely out of shape, generally takes a lot of time off between fights and apparently was on a hunting trip before he got the call for this fight.

As I said, the body kicks, the sheer pressure of it being the biggest fight the UFC's ever done, and the 2 week camp (18 days but when you factor in the media obligations of fight week it translates into about a 2 week camp) would have all probably contributed to Chad gassing. We've never seen him gas like that before, and that includes his 5 round absolute war with Aldo in their second fight where he got rocked repeatedly. Had he had a longer camp, his cardio would have probably been a lot better, and as I said, he would have been even more explosive, powerful and technically on point.

Conor displayed a great chin/toughness and did a really good job of keeping his composure, but he had no real answer for the wrestling, and a big part of his game was exposed in the fight.

The striking wasn't as one sided as people are making it out to be either. Sure Conor was clearly pressuring him and did outstike him, but Chad was landing some big punches as well.

All this talk of only having two weeks of training goes both ways. Conor was preparing for a completely different opponent, stylistically. Also:

http://www.mmamania.com/2015/7/14/8965357/ufc-conor-mcgregor-did-no-live-wrestling-or-mma-sparring-in-training-knee-injury-mma

Go ahead and respond with 19 paragraphs if it makes you feel better, lmao. Connor is just flat out better than the midget. Period.

That's if we take Conor's coach fully at his word, when he would clearly have an agenda of hyping Conor up as much as possible/making him look as good as possible in light of what was, in that one specific area, a pretty poor performance.

They would have every reason to lie and either way there's no real evidence for that claim.

I understand Conor only had 2 weeks to prepare stylistically for Chad, but the same can be said for Chad Mendes. Conor however did have a full training camp for everything else, which Chad didn't.

If you're so convinced that Conor's better why are you trying so desperately to dismiss all the evidence that isn't entirely favourable to him? Surely you should be confidant enough in your opinion that you can accept the full reality of the situation and still remain unchanged in your assessment of him?

Full training camp Conor wastes full training camp midget.

Concession accepted.

Originally posted by appletonia
In order to hype a fight, engage in trash talk/the pre-fight mental warfare, and not give their opponent any kind of gameplanning advantage, fighters will rarely talk about any weaknesses or vulnerabilities prior to a fight. That's why the excuses almost always come out after the fight, from both the winners and the losers. Fact is there's a reason fighters (and Chad in all of his other fights) go on much longer camps and it's because it takes a lot to prepare yourself for a 3-5 round fight and potential war. Chad apparently is someone that, while not exactly getting completely out of shape, generally takes a lot of time off between fights and apparently was on a hunting trip before he got the call for this fight.

As I said, the body kicks, the sheer pressure of it being the biggest fight the UFC's ever done, and the 2 week camp (18 days but when you factor in the media obligations of fight week it translates into about a 2 week camp) would have all probably contributed to Chad gassing. We've never seen him gas like that before, and that includes his 5 round absolute war with Aldo in their second fight where he got rocked repeatedly. Had he had a longer camp, his cardio would have probably been a lot better, and as I said, he would have been even more explosive, powerful and technically on point.

Conor displayed a great chin/toughness and did a really good job of keeping his composure, but he had no real answer for the wrestling, and a big part of his game was exposed in the fight.

The striking wasn't as one sided as people are making it out to be either. Sure Conor was clearly pressuring him and did outstike him, but Chad was landing some big punches as well.

What an untrustworthy guy.

Also the hunting trip excuse is a good one. You mean to tell me he was hiking around with heavy gear on carrying a gun for Allah knows how many miles and that's a large reason he was out of shape? Maybe he shot a dear and had to carry it back after he dressed it?

Fact is, if I'm really in shape about 3-4 times a year and only slightly out of shape the rest (because I train year round), then I would expect to get in shape to last at least 10 minutes doing something I've done all my life with 3 weeks to prepare. It's not like Chad sits around playing with his penis while eating Cheetos for months on end. He's in the gym helping others all the time even when he's not in a fight. The fact that he never shies too much from his fight weight (15-20) pounds says he keeps in shape. Says he was keeping in shape.

Unless we just discredit everything he says because he's a dirty liar and he has a large reason to lie about what he does on his downtime. I don't even know why people like him since he's such an untrustworthy sea serpent. **** that guy.

Had he not been kicked in the guts I've no doubt he wouldn't have gassed or at the very least until the 4th or so. However it's not like having more gas would have allowed him to finish the fight or not get punched in the face until he dropped. He was winning until Conor got pulled off of him, quite simple.
What is he going to do more of with a kickless midsection? Hold him down a couple seconds longer? Teleport away from punches?

It's not so much that Chad was lying, but rather putting a positive spin on the situation, and I'm saying we can't fully trust the sincerity of his general positive tone when he's trying to sell the fight and project an air of confidance.

According to Urijah Faber, who's obviously very familiar with how Chad trains, Chad is absolutely the kind of guy that takes time off in between camps, and this is from an interview before Chad's fight with Ricardo Lamas, where he would have no real agenda to push about selling a fight on short notice (he begins at around 28:10):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tv33ZW6-MD0

And I'm not saying that Chad isn't even in great shape between training camps, but there's a huge difference between that and training camp shape, which Chad did not have the time to get into. Also a huge difference between performing one kind of physical activity at your own leisure, and a completely different type at a super high intensity.

Obviously gassing is a gradual process and would have had the impact of Chad slowing down and getting mentally weaker as the fight progressed, which obviously would have factored in on his own offensive output and his ability to avoid getting hit. And again, Chad's cardio isn't the only thing that would have been affected by the short camp.

I'm really not sure why you guys are so unwilling to accept that Chad was at a huge disadvantage in not having had a full camp; as I said to batdude it really only makes you look very insecure in your assessment of how the two fighters match up when you start desperately ignoring the evidence.

I'm not saying that Conor didn't look great in any respects and that he'd definitely lose a rematch, but the fight definitely had Chad at a huge disadvantage and he still dominated a large portion of it, and would likely have a much better performance in a rematch with a full training camp.

Originally posted by long pig
I want conar to win, but I see Aldo brutalizing him.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
What is he going to do more of with a kickless midsection? Hold him down a couple seconds longer? Teleport away from punches?

That said, I think Conor's coach gave the most reasonable assessment.

"Do I think a rematch if it does happen down the line would be different? Yes, for both of them."

So in other words Chad is a huge liar and Faber's word carries more weight on another fighter?

And that's my point. If he's already in great shape "but not training camp shape" then 3 weeks is more than enough time to get into "not gas in 10 minutes" shape. 3 weeks is a lot of time to get your cardio up when you're constantly walking around at "great shape" range. He just came off the Lamas fight where he said he trained like it was a world title. IE he's coming off of being in great shape. Even if he did nothing between then (which he obviously didn't do), he should have at least been able to last 10 minutes if we're faulting it purely on the short camp alone. I personally know what it's like to be in the best shape of your life and then taking a break and applying that to other things. The first couple days suck but after that you're in great shape. You don't simply lose everything. He's not sitting around for years getting fat. He's just not training as hard while still staying in shape... while staying at a walk around weight of only 15 to 20 pounds above his fight weight. Which would be 160. And considering he cuts a lot of water weight...

Here one of his teammates say he stays in great shape outside of fighting
http://www.bjpenn.com/buchholz-mcgregor-cant-do-anything-mendes-hasnt-see-before-exclusive-189-ufc/

Here he himself says he feels great with the training camp:
https://youtu.be/57e7tahw2d0

And the whole break aspect Faber was talking about doesn't overrule anything anyway. If anything it helps cement the fact that Chad was talking about longer camps being harder on him and he peaked early and the rest sucks. He needs a break. That doesn't mean he can't help out his camp at all, run or cycle. That just means he's not training for a fight all the time.

Or Chad would have been punched in the face really hard because he isn't unhittable at one point in time. We saw Chad unable to much to a kneeless Conor. His chin simply can't absorb his blows. Chad would have had to stay night perfect for another 15 minutes to avoid that even if his cardio was endless. And considering Chad was having trouble keeping him down or even coming anywhere close to finishing, that's a tall task.

Yes insecurities. Tell me more about that while you make a hundred excuses for why Chad fell over when he got popped in the jaw. Maybe tell me about my own insecurities while you nigh outright state everything Chad said is a lie leading up to the fight. Don't project your shit on me.

I'm simply saying that Chad should have been more than in shape cardio wise for the fight if you're not factoring in the real cause of his gassing. I don't personally care about either fighter too much, but the excuses are just tremendous. You're attempting to diminish all of Conor's accomplishments in that fight in favor of short training camp and then are deflecting any criticism of Chad's words of how that might be favorable for him with subtly calling him a no good good brown skinned filthy liar.

I realize it's not ideal to go on a halved training camp. The issue is that there was another more important case factoring into it. Conor hitting him in the body.

There's also the fact that Conor had a knee injury and the fact that Chad's chin can't withstand his power. I think I'll side with the previous winner in a rematch myself

Originally posted by appletonia
Chad. He's grown into a very good striker and is arguably the hardest hitter in the division. He's more explosive than Conor, he's very quick at closing the distance to find his striking range and is used to fighting guys who possess a reach advantage against him. He mixes his takedowns with his striking very well, and Conor would most likely be less inclined to use much of his kicking game in fear of the takedown. He's got the more proven submission game, and would have the advantage in the tight scrambles on the feet and in the clinch as well. And the closer the distance of the striking exchanges, the more likely we'll see Chad hurt him with a big punch, and possibly knock him out or finish him with a submission or TKO.

I'm not going to also say that Chad would definitely be able to take and hold him down with ease as we really don't know how good Conor's defensive wrestling is in that area, but it's certainly a possibility and something that's happened to a lot of great strikers in the UFC, and as it stands Conor's defensive wrestling is basically untested, and similarly we don't really know quite how much his striking will be inhibited by the fear of the takedown. He's literally going from never having fought a wrestler, to fighting possibly the best wrestler in MMA today.

Conor cuts an absolutely huge amount of weight as well and we haven't seen whether he'll have the cardio to perform in the championship rounds either if the fight gets there. We also haven't really seen him face adversity in the UFC, and don't know how he'll handle getting hit with big shots or being smothered on the ground.

And as Chad has been pointing out, he hasn't had to deal with an entire training camp of trash talk with Conor, which is something that seems to mentally break a lot of fighters going into the fight. And while he indeed hasn't had a full training camp, it is true, and as Chad's been saying, that often fighters overtrain themselves and are usually physically ready a few weeks into it. And Conor has been training for a compeltely different kind of fighter, and now has to completely change his gameplan against a guy who is probably the worst stylistic matchup for him in the division.

For Conor to win, he has to keep the fight standing and at his range, and if he manages to do that he'll probably finish Chad pretty easily (and Conor is similarly a very hard hitter and certainly has as good a puncher's chance as one might hope for - Chad does also get hit, not as much as Conor but Aldo was able to repeatedly rock him in their second fight, and of course KO'd him in their first), but I just don't see that happening. In every other position, Chad has the advantage imo, and he's got the explosiveness, vastly improved movement, experience with successfully combating superior reach and the wrestling to dictate the position of the fight and make it very uncomfortable for Conor.

Edit - not that I don't have huge respect for Conor's skills however. I think that right this second, he may very well be the best striker in MMA. He's simply going up against one of the best, most athletic and most well rounded fighters in MMA today (ever, even), and has an unproven defensive wrestling game. I have him at #4 in my rankings (Aldo, Mendes and Edgar being the top 3). I'd probably pick him over Lamas for example, who's a spectacular fighter.

Originally posted by StyleTime
I actually want Conor to lose, but putting my bias aside, I still lean towards Aldo. Conor could prove me wrong obviously though.

Probably keep pressing his massive wrestling advantage.

That said, I think Conor's coach gave the most reasonable assessment.

"Do I think a rematch if it does happen down the line would be different? Yes, for both of them."

And I've no doubt it would go different. But most rematches do. Had Chad come in with a full training camp he would have done the exact same he did in that fight with presumedly a little more gas. Does that type of strategy make for him being unhittable? Evidentally not.

And Conor apparently didn't even train wrasslin because of he had a bad case of Shogun knee as well.

Had the fight been a full training camp I'd say the guy with the ability to knock the guy out in a couple punches would have won... or it'd be stopped due to a cut.

In a rematch I'd say Conor should win that too.

That's not to say he beats Aldo, but Chad is no Aldo. He's more of the kind of guy that get's knocked out by a guy everyone said he's the easiest match for him because no wrasslin and he didn't even train wrasslin.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
So in other words Chad is a huge liar and Faber's word carries more weight on another fighter?

Faber not only trains with him but is the leader of their team, and is in as good a position to know about Chad's training habits as Chad is himself, provided Chad doesn't train elsewhere in secret. Chad put a positive spin on the short training camp before the fight, but changed his tune after the fight and partially attributed his poor performance to it. You can argue that he had an agenda both times, trying to do his best to sell the fight and project an air of confidance before the fight, and making excuses afterwards. The fact of the matter is that what he was saying about not being in optimal shape afterwards is more compatible with what we know about how fighters train, and fits with what Urijah Faber was saying when he had no agenda to push whatseoever.

And that's my point. If he's already in great shape "but not training camp shape" then 3 weeks is more than enough time to get into "not gas in 10 minutes" shape.

That he's already in great shape and yet still chooses to do a 8-12 week training camp under normal circumstances should tell you that those extra weeks make a significant difference. He would presumably have been in "not gas in 10 minutes" shape if he were doing shadow boxing or something, but it's obviously a different matter entirely when you're getting punched and kicked in the face and body and performing in the biggest fight of your life. I already acknowledged that those other elements would have played a large part, but it's silly to deny that the shorter camp wasn't a huge factor in itself.

3 weeks is a lot of time to get your cardio up when you're constantly walking around at "great shape" range. He just came off the Lamas fight where he said he trained like it was a world title. IE he's coming off of being in great shape. Even if he did nothing between then (which he obviously didn't do), he should have at least been able to last 10 minutes if we're faulting it purely on the short camp alone.

Generally speaking, you don't simply finish a training camp and remain in the same shape for an extended period afterwards. The training camps are designed to push you to your limits, keep you there for a very short time, where your body can't help but soon start breaking down and needing rest shortly afterwards. Chad would not have maintained the shape he was in from the Ricardo Lamas fight.

Here one of his teammates say he stays in great shape outside of fighting
http://www.bjpenn.com/buchholz-mcgregor-cant-do-anything-mendes-hasnt-see-before-exclusive-189-ufc/

Here he himself says he feels great with the training camp:
https://youtu.be/57e7tahw2d0

Anything from when they're *not* trying to sell a short notice fight as much as they can, and project as much confidance about their fighter going into the fight?

And the whole break aspect Faber was talking about doesn't overrule anything anyway. If anything it helps cement the fact that Chad was talking about longer camps being harder on him and he peaked early and the rest sucks. He needs a break. That doesn't mean he can't help out his camp at all, run or cycle. That just means he's not training for a fight all the time.

No, it says nothing about Chad peaking early, but that he needs the break (or rather can especially afford it due to his strong athletic base) once the camp and fight are over, and I'd like to think that pretty much every fighter, and Chad himself, know what they're doing by opting to go with the longer training camps rather than a shorter one. Chad's been doing this a while and hasn't felt the need to change his methods thus far.

Or Chad would have been punched in the face really hard because he isn't unhittable at one point in time. We saw Chad unable to much to a kneeless Conor. His chin simply can't absorb his blows. Chad would have had to stay night perfect for another 15 minutes to avoid that even if his cardio was endless. And considering Chad was having trouble keeping him down or even coming anywhere close to finishing, that's a tall task.

Chad really wasn't having much trouble keeping Conor down at all, did we watch the same fight? He was holding him down with ease while landing huge elbows, and Conor was only getting up when Chad took a risk and went for a submission. Probably wanted to go for the finish because he knew he was tiring.

With superior cardio, Chad would have been able to move around more, his chin would have been able to absorb more damage, and he would have been more focused. It's pretty lame that you refuse to acknowledge what is, on paper, a huge disadvantage Chad was being faced with.

Yes insecurities. Tell me more about that while you make a hundred excuses for why Chad fell over when he got popped in the jaw. Maybe tell me about my own insecurities while you nigh outright state everything Chad said is a lie leading up to the fight. Don't project your shit on me.

You're similarly doing the same thing by discounting what Chad was saying after the fight. Maybe you could explain why exactly we should give greater credibility to what Chad was saying ebfore the fight than what he was saying afterwards?

I'm simply saying that Chad should have been more than in shape cardio wise for the fight if you're not factoring in the real cause of his gassing. I don't personally care about either fighter too much, but the excuses are just tremendous. You're attempting to diminish all of Conor's accomplishments in that fight in favor of short training camp and then are deflecting any criticism of Chad's words of how that might be favorable for him with subtly calling him a no good good brown skinned filthy liar.

I realize it's not ideal to go on a halved training camp. The issue is that there was another more important case factoring into it. Conor hitting him in the body.

Well that's all I wanted to hear you say. Again, I acknowledged that the body shots would have played a huge part in draining Chad of his gas tank.

There's also the fact that Conor had a knee injury

Not proven.

and the fact that Chad's chin can't withstand his power. I think I'll side with the previous winner in a rematch myself

Your chin can withstand greater punishment when you have more energy. A largely diminished Chad can't withstand Conor's power, not necessarily a fresh Chad.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Also this post

As I said, "This might have been wishful thinking.".

The rest of the post was pretty spot on.