ufc/pride

Originally posted by appletonia
Faber not only trains with him but is the leader of their team, and is in as good a position to know about Chad's training habits as Chad is himself, provided Chad doesn't train elsewhere in secret. Chad put a positive spin on the short training camp before the fight, but changed his tune after the fight and partially attributed his poor performance to it. You can argue that he had an agenda both times, trying to do his best to sell the fight and project an air of confidance before the fight, and making excuses afterwards. The fact of the matter is that what he was saying about not being in optimal shape afterwards is more compatible with what we know about how fighters train, and fits with what Urijah Faber was saying when he had no agenda to push whatseoever.

Not to mention nothing Faber says there overrides anything I said, nor would it put Chad in terrible shape. You're picking and choosing what to accept without actually looking into the context. Chad is a brownskinned scuzbag with his words, but here's Urijah Faber saying words that don't diminish Chad staying in shape outside of training for fights... let's accept this. No question!

Originally posted by appletonia
That he's already in great shape and yet still chooses to do a 8-12 week training camp under normal circumstances should tell you that those extra weeks make a significant difference. He would presumably have been in "not gas in 10 minutes" shape if he were doing shadow boxing or something, but it's obviously a different matter entirely when you're getting punched and kicked in the face and body and performing in the biggest fight of your life. I already acknowledged that those other elements would have played a large part, but it's silly to deny that the shorter camp wasn't a huge factor in itself.

Chad outright said he was only really working on his cardio and getting his weight down along with fine tuning. Obviously he would have trained longer if he had more time, but that doesn't mean that longer training period would have specifically went into working on his cardio.

One thing does not disregard another in this case.

Originally posted by appletonia
Generally speaking, you don't simply finish a training camp and remain in the same shape for an extended period afterwards. The training camps are designed to push you to your limits, keep you there for a very short time, where your body can't help but soon start breaking down and needing rest shortly afterwards. Chad would not have maintained the shape he was in from the Ricardo Lamas fight.

I'm saying that he was in "the best shape of his life". Obviously he's not going to be in that shape for the remaining 3 months or that'd defeat a lot of the purpose of training. I'm saying after being in the best shape of his life, he took a break off of hardcore training while still apparently taking care of his physical form to some degree (helping out, cycling, running, etc). He's not going to be in "the best shape of his life" right after 3 months, but he should still be in great shape. You don't go straight into atrophy like a rotten potato if you're still doing things in that time frame... things that are purely for cardio mind you. Hell, I have my doubts he'd actually get into bad shape if he just did literally nothing for that matter. His shape carries over for a decent period of time. He was just in shape to go 25 minutes over a long period of time. It's not going to diminish just like that.

Your whole assumption is that he just wilts like a head of lettuce on the sun if he's not training. The issue with that is that his form carries over when he's so used to training like that. It might take a little bit to get back into it, but he's not going to be a complete trainwreck when he comes back. He keeps his form always ready for training. He might not be in fighting shape right before he starts, but everything points to this being his optimal way to train. In shape enough that there's little prep required from fight to fight. Which literally every interview before hand points to. Which doesn't count because Mendes is a liar? Common sense is a liar? The way the body works is a liar? I wonder if you'd disregard that if Faber said it.

But to reiterate, if you're in amazing shape for large portions of a year, and then just in great shape for the rest of it, then it takes a lot less to get in amazing shape from great shape. He's not giving himself time to just lose everything cardio wise.

Not to mention he was tired in 2 minutes into the fight. Chad prefers 6 weeks for a training camp. Apparently Chad is just completely wrecked for the first half of his training camp. Can't imagine what he gets out of the first half when apparently he's just gassed immediately...

Originally posted by appletonia
Anything from when they're *not* trying to sell a short notice fight as much as they can, and project as much confidance about their fighter going into the fight?

I don't even think Faber trains with Mendes personally. Can I start throwing this in doubt to suit my point?

Though on that note, they don't really need to sell anything in that fight. The only thing that could is the trash talk. What they're doing is saying stuff they themselves believe. They weren't going into it scripted thinking "I'll fool those queers", they're just answering off the top of their head from personal opinion.

When the excuses come, that's when they deeply think of "How the shit could this happen... well maybe it was this, maybe it was that, maybe that one ass hair I lost when I wiped too hard was my good luck charm." The excuses are when it gets a lot more "manipulative" of what they can trick people to think.

Which is why I put more stock into before hand as opposed to post. Unless something is a blatant lie, like hiding an injury for example.

Originally posted by appletonia
No, it says nothing about Chad peaking early, but that he needs the break (or rather can especially afford it due to his strong athletic base) once the camp and fight are over, and I'd like to think that pretty much every fighter, and Chad himself, know what they're doing by opting to go with the longer training camps rather than a shorter one. Chad's been doing this a while and hasn't felt the need to change his methods thus far.

I'm saying it fits in with previous comments about him peaking early. That he doesn't need to be training that much, and he needs breaks in between.

And here's the interview I was talking about (though I already showed the video)

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2518389-ufc-189-chad-mendes-welcomes-everything-about-fight-with-conor-mcgregor

"I'm feeling damn good right now," Mendes told the media in attendance for UFC 189 open workouts. "I'm the type of guy that overtrains pretty damn quick, so three to four weeks into a training camp, I feel peaked out. With the base that I already had built, jumping into this two-and-a-half-week training camp was actually perfect.

"I feel so ready. I feel fast and explosive. I don't feel full of injuries and beat up, but only time will tell. I feel great heading into Saturday night is all I can say."

So like I said, the Faber comments fit into the whole peaking aspect. Mendes needs a break so he doesn't overtrain. One thing doesn't negate the other in this instance. All Faber basically said is that Mendes isn't training full bore all the time when he isn't training for a specific fight. And why would he? He peaks out within 3-4 weeks of training

All lies though. Obviously no truth to anything Mendes ever said. 🙂

Originally posted by appletonia
Chad really wasn't having much trouble keeping Conor down at all, did we watch the same fight? He was holding him down with ease while landing huge elbows, and Conor was only getting up when Chad took a risk and went for a submission. Probably wanted to go for the finish because he knew he was tiring.

And all Chad's attacks did was cause him to bleed, which admittedly could have stopped the fight, but where's the glory in that?

Originally posted by appletonia
With superior cardio, Chad would have been able to move around more, his chin would have been able to absorb more damage, and he would have been more focused. It's pretty lame that you refuse to acknowledge what is, on paper, a huge disadvantage Chad was being faced with.

Which was purely due to body shots. Unless 2-3 weeks is now also not enough time for Chad to last 3 minutes without getting tired...

If he's getting gassed within 2 minutes from body shots, then logic dictates that if the fight happens for another 8 minutes with a lot more body shots that he's probably going to get a lot more tired. And it's probably the biggest factor. I don't know, maybe I'm losing my mind.

lol at his chin failing because he was gassed though. Sure he was tired, but he wasn't leaving his mouth open gulping air while getting tagged in the chin. You're playing that up too much. It's not like Chad ever even really got cleanly hit hard either by Conor. He was just getting hit with what looked like reaching shots.

"Everything Chad ever said before the fight was a lie"
- Not lame comment. Everything going against this is lame.

And I'm not saying Chad didn't go in there at a disadvantage. The issue is however, is that that disadvantage didn't seem to play into the actual reason he lost and got tired. He started breathing heavy when he got hit over and over in the body. He stopped moving around as much when he seemingly got stunned. It's pretty lame that you're downplaying something that you yourself have said is a factor. It's pretty lame that you're completely disregarding Chad's words as fibs when you yourself have used them before the fight. Just throw anything under the bus when it doesn't fit your prediction of how a fight would go!

Originally posted by appletonia
You're similarly doing the same thing by discounting what Chad was saying after the fight. Maybe you could explain why exactly we should give greater credibility to what Chad was saying ebfore the fight than what he was saying afterwards?

Anyone can make excuses after they get knocked out in a fight they think they should have easily won. He's playing to his own pride... like a lot of people do. How soon we forget "cracked skull" Tito?

He wants himself and everyone watching to think he could have done better. He did the same thing when he lost the first fight to Aldo. Mind you the reasons vary. He said he was in great shape, was winning the fight, but then all of the sudden he got knocked out and all of his "better than Aldo" skills went out the window. He wanted to fool everyone into thinking that had he not been brutally knocked out, he would have won. Because that's what fighters do... that's what people do. You want to believe you're better than you are. You want to believe if you fix your mistake, that you can and would win or do better.

And the prefight is him coming into the fight thinking he's fixed all the mistakes that might be around him. His prior excuses have tricked his confidence into him thinking he's done everything he can to fix that. It's a vicious cycle. But I'd personally put more stock into before he lost, than when he did.

Also, the biggest excuse and biggest reason to my recollection that he said he lost was because he went for the guillotine. IE, he thinks if he would have lasted the round, he wouldn't have been teed off on. Which is a huge assumption, just like the assumption that he would do better.

Originally posted by appletonia
Well that's all I wanted to hear you say. Again, I acknowledged that the body shots would have played a huge part in draining Chad of his gas tank.

This shit isn't scripted (or most isn't). You can't just play with putty and decide this is how the fight is going to go down.

And more often than not there's an actual reason in fight why things happen as opposed to this witchhunt of excuses after every big fight.

If this didn't happen, this would have happened, etc.

Or maybe he would have always been punched in the face in the particular case. Like he was when he was fresh. Like he was getting hit in the body lots when he was fresh.

And you're severely downplaying the bodyshots though. You say one thing about them, and then in the next you're ready to write them off entirely. I'm saying the primary cause of his boo booed insides is due to the body shots. You can't seem to decide if you want to include them in there or not. You want everyone to know how much better he is full tank and then you want to reach around to your excuse drawer and pull out "But I said bodyshots counts too! Guys, I said it!"

You even go so far as to imply that Conor can't KO a fresh Chad. 😂

Sure there's an accumulation effect in play, but the primary cause for his gassing is the bodyshots. Clear as day. Which is what I'm saying. Would a fresh Chad be able to bypass this because we believe in him? I doubt it. I also have my doubts that 2 minute in Chad is anything but fresh no matter how long he has... unless he gets body shotted hard.

Originally posted by appletonia
Not proven.

http://www.mmamania.com/2015/7/14/8965357/ufc-conor-mcgregor-did-no-live-wrestling-or-mma-sparring-in-training-knee-injury-mma

Conor's head coach is filthy liar for making excuses after the fight. But wait, what did you say on this subject?

Originally posted by appletonia
Anything from when they're *not* trying to sell a short notice fight as much as they can, and project as much confidance about their fighter going into the fight?

So, excuses after the fact carry more weight according to you? The head coach saying they did no live wrestling training for the fight afterwards doesn't count though? And the coach said it healed up anyway.

He's a liar though. Chad Mendes for life (but only if it's him talking after the fight).

Originally posted by appletonia
Your chin can withstand greater punishment when you have more energy. A largely diminished Chad can't withstand Conor's power, not necessarily a fresh Chad.

Your Chad Mendes agenda is pretty lame.

Originally posted by appletonia
As I said, "This might have been wishful thinking.".

The rest of the post was pretty spot on.

You turned on a dime just like all the other Chad Mendes fans after the fight. Just like the MMA writers. What was a reason for winning before hand is now a reason for losing. And it's absolutely hilarious to see it in action.

Blah blah blah

Basically this:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2521205-conor-mcgregors-body-shots-the-difference-in-title-victory

And a much better look into it
http://fightland.vice.com/blog/ufc-189-how-mcgregor-stole-mendes-wind

The crescent kick Kikuno was hitting Alvarez with (along with his weird choke thing) almost completely gassed out Eddie in their fight as well. It's a sneaky attack.

What Chad Floyd Money Mendesweather would be wise to do training for a rematch down the line, is the best way to avoid this IMO. That shit's brutal. Because down would come the internet if Fresh Chad (or Chad Fresh if you prefer) got gassed out by the same shit in a rematch...

EDIT: Also lol at Mcgregor saying he wouldn't target Aldo's body if they fought because he's going for the face. What a prick.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Which only would have prolonged it until he dropped night night. He couldn't keep him there with Conor doing nothing. Everytime they got up Mendes got hit hard.

Had the fight been a full training camp I'd say the guy with the ability to knock the guy out in a couple punches would have won... or it'd be stopped due to a cut.

That's not to say he beats Aldo, but Chad is no Aldo. He's more of the kind of guy that get's knocked out by a guy everyone said he's the easiest match for him because no wrasslin and he didn't even train wrasslin.

If you think Conor would win regardless, that's fine. But Chad also qualifies as a "guy with the ability to knock the guy out in a couple of punches." He also has wildly superior wrestling.

Well, the wrasslin worked fine until he gassed.

Because... lol at 8-12 weeks... those 12 weeks aren't purely for cardio purposes. Those 84 days aren't just to last a long time in the ring. Those 3 months of solid training cover everything. Those quarter of the year training camps that Chad obviously undergoes are for technique, power, cardio, gameplans, and the works.

The philosophy behind the training camp is to find the perfect balance of pushing the fighter to their absolute physical limit, without pushing them past that and overtraining them, and because fighters aren't capable of sustaining it for very long, they have to time the peaks as close to the fight as possible. In that sense, technique and gameplanning are incidental to the length of the camps, but as a convenience are done at the same time (money, timing, efficiency). The full length of the camp is essential purely from a physical standpoint. Now, cardio is not some fixed attribute that you simply have to work towards and then tick off of the list, it's an attribute that you need to continously work on as you gain strength and put on more muscle (cardio demands are higher the greater the muscle mass), and muscle endurance similarly needs to be built up and constantly reinforced as you take damage and suffer minor injuries throughout the training camp. With a shorter camp, Mendes would either have to have far less lofty aspirations for strength gains and, or simply wouldn't have had the time to build up his muscle endurance and cardio to match his increased muscle mass and inevitable wear and tear. So yes, the full length of the training camp absolutely factors into cardio.

Though on that note, they don't really need to sell anything in that fight. The only thing that could is the trash talk. What they're doing is saying stuff they themselves believe. They weren't going into it scripted thinking "I'll fool those queers", they're just answering off the top of their head from personal opinion.

Trash talk isn't the only thing that sells a fight - a fight's legitimacy absolutely plays a part (though probably a much smaller part, especially with the casual fans). A guy with a full training camp versus a guy with a 2 week training camp is not a fair fight and it suits everyone's agenda to underplay the significance of that disadvantage prior to the fight.

And you realise talking trash and projecting an air of confidance generally go hand in hand, right? Inevitably in the pre-fight buildup Chad will be asked questions about how he sees the fight going down, and he's going to want to be able to answer that question as forcefully as possible. Being entirely honest about a shortcoming (such as cardio) would simply hinder his ability to state emphatically how he's a terrible matchup for Conor and how he's going to destroy him etc.

I never said it said anything about Chad peaking early. Learn to read.

I'm saying it fits in with previous comments about him peaking early. That he doesn't need to be training that much, and he needs breaks in between.

Nope, you are trying to argue a strong correlation between needing a break after a training camp, and peaking early into the camp, when everybody needs a break after the camp, and generally aims to peak at the perfect time. You were saying it helps cement the notion that he peaks early, when it doesn't at all. The point Urijah was making was that Chad has such a strongh athletic base that he doesn't have to do as much between camps to stay in shape.

Connor got up 3 times.

1st time - when Chad really started teeing off.

2nd time - Chad didn't look that commited to holding him down and seemed to be trying to land something big in the scramble.

3rd time - When Chad intentionally lost position to go for a submission.

Obviously when you're not fully commited to holding somebody down, or go for risks, it makes it easier for the guy to get up, but when Chad was playing it safe (but still landing big shots often enough so that the fight wouldn't be stood up) and not going for risks, he controlled him on the ground for over 5 minutes, more than half the fight, and Conor didn't have an answer for that whatsoever.

It was only when Chad was nigh gassed that he had any success, which could be attributed to him playing it safe most of the time when he was tired which is why he was successful in keeping him down, as we know Fresh Chad takes risks to end the fight.

I never deneid that it might require Chad to play it safe to keep him down, but the point I'm making is that it was fully in Chad's control, and that if he so chose to play it safe, Conor couldn't seem to do anything about it.

You even go so far as to imply that Conor can't KO a fresh Chad.

Anybody can KO anybody where fighters are concerned. I'm not saying Conor can't KO Chad, but rather, that his power seemed to be too much for him at a point where Chad had largely gassed, which absolutely makes you more susceptible to damage. Your claim that Chad can't withstand Conor's power is based on his getting finished in a highly diminished state, not on getting rocked in a fresh state.

So, excuses after the fact carry more weight according to you?

I already said that both his comments before and after the fight could potentially be distrusted due to him having an agenda either way. What carries more weight to me is what is more compatible with what we know, which are his post fight comments. He can say he felt great prior to the fight, but it's simply not compatible with the fact that he, presumably for good reason, has been having far longer training camps, as every fighter does, for his entire career. His post fight comments, where he partially attributes the loss to having a shorter training camp, is simply more reconcilable with the evidence.

The head coach saying they did no live wrestling training for the fight afterwards doesn't count though? And the coach said it healed up anyway.

The coach said it healed up, but regardless was still using it as an excuse for not being able to train wrestling. You acknowledge that fighters would naturally make excuses for losing a fight that may be dishonest, but you're so closed off to the idea that they might do so to excuse a very poor showing within a winning performance? The question has always been whether or not Conor has been able to deal with a wrestler and that fight showed that he largely couldn't. He was losing the fight on the scorecards prior to getting the finish, and taking a lot of damage (regardless of his poker face). You could argue that he's somewhat lost the aura he had a little bit. There's plenty that his coaches might want to excuse about that peformance. You simply cannot fully trust his coach's words in this instance.

But it wasn't at the time, which is the point.

It wasn't wishful thinking at the time? Because you're in a position to know? Ask me any other time, I would always argue that a longer training camp is an advantage over a smaller one. It absolutely was wishful thinking, combined with thinking that Conor was such an easy matchup that it probably wouldn't have made much of a difference anyway.

Anybody else think TJ Dillashaw might possibly be the #1 P4P fighter in the world? Another incredible performance.

Anybody else really stoked for the Shields vs Palhares fight?

Originally posted by appletonia
Anybody else think TJ Dillashaw might possibly be the #1 P4P fighter in the world? Another incredible performance.

Can't believe Dillashaw beat Barao even worse the second time though. It's like we're seeing what Dominic Cruz would have been had the CIA not kidnapped him. Shame we will likely never Dillashaw/Cruz. Barao is a monster still though. Can't believe he stayed conscious at the end there.

lol well I still maintain that I don't think the heavyweights are quite as bad as you've claimed in the past, and that they shouldn't be judged by the same standards as the lighter weight classes. Alistair Overeem for example, if we ignore his weak chin, I'd probably put in the top 10 of strikers in the UFC right now, based just on technical ability. But yeah, right now I have TJ Dillashaw as probably one of the 4 best strikers in MMA (the others being McGregor, Pettis and Wonderboy), and combined with his impressive wrestling background, it's hard to say he's not up there P4P. I'd probably have him, MM and Jones as the top 3 right now.

I'm a massive Cruz fan, but I truly think TJ's on another level in the stand up. He hits with a lot more power and I think he's generally looked more dominant against better competition (well, the two Barao fights basically). Cruz, while very hard to hit and more unorthodox, didn't have the best offensive output, and I think in some ways was more style over substance.

If there is one clear advantage I'd give to Cruz though it's the MMA wrestling, the timing of his takedowns in particular. I think he'd have to mix things up really well to beat TJ; in a striking battle, I can't see him being all that competitive.

I'd recommend everyone watch the Edson Barboza vs Paul Felder fight. It was both skillful and highly entertaining. There were lots of flashy spinning moves constantly throughout the fight, and generally a versatile display of striking from both parties. Definitely a fun match and a great fight to show to people just getting into MMA.

@apple. I agree TJ would probably win, but I guess I was thinking of a more hypothetical "Cruz that never went mia and continued to fight" vs current Dillashaw. Just me speculating though, as I don't know where he'd be now.

Anderson Silva suspended for a year, retroactive Jan 31. The Diaz fight was overturned. He'll be clear to fight next Jan.

http://mmajunkie.com/2015/08/anderson-silva-suspended-one-year-fined-380k-chastised-for-soft-testimony

****ing Fedor signs to the ufc!!

Oh no. I would have been excited about that several years ago, but now it only fills me with woe. I'd rather not have to watch the painful decay of Fedor like I did with Crocop. Let's face it, Fedor had three losses to people that aren't even top 5 before he retired. I really don't think this run, against the same guys and above, will end well.

I want to be wrong. I really do. I'm a fan from the "old school" Pride days; those guys have special places in my heart. I want him to give us some amazing fights, but I remain skeptical.

Fedor will never stop being fedor

Yeah, but "being Fedor" has a different meaning now.

uhuh

Prime Fedor vs Prime Rutten?

So, Rousey is just as arrogant as Mayweather was, arrogance is bad for sporta and it will make people hate you.

Saying she could take "ANYBODY ON THE PLANET!"

Is Ludicrous.

I dare her to try to take on any heavyweight on the male side of UFC, guarantee you she gets knocked out by Bob ****ing Sapp.

I looked that up, as I never read her little AMA. I think she might be doing a Chael Sonnen type thing there. It's part of her persona to say stuff like that.

Obviously, she wouldn't beat someone like Cain Velasquez.

And I side with Fedor in a Prime Fedor vs Prime Bas fight.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Prime Fedor vs Prime Rutten?

Why would this even be a fight?

I can't think of more than a few notable victories by Bas and the most fan was undeserved.

Shamrock submitted him twice with lightning speed.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
Why would this even be a fight?

I can't think of more than a few notable victories by Bas and the most fan was undeserved.

Shamrock submitted him twice with lightning speed.

Also, in Ken and Bas' first fight, it was AWHILE before Ken made him tap out.

Bas was dominating him in the stand-up game.