Originally posted by Lightsnake
Bias? Discounting everything on Palp's power made official in several writings and source books and taking even the vaguest quote on the Ancients as great power when they got their asses kicked on three worlds.
So, we shouldn't take into account Mace Windu putting Sidious on his ass? Sidious being tossed down a reactor shaft by a mechanical arm? Or being destroyed by 2.5 people?
Originally posted by Lightsnake
How many times must we run through that? Dark Empire states they used the entire force to block shield Palpatine from the light, Palpatine was focused on Luke and Anakin was destined to destroy him, the Mace part's up for debate.
Yes, they used. They = 2 people and a fetus. And, the Mace part is hardly up for a debate of any sort.
He said he overpowered him, easily applicable to 'Palpatine was holding back and allowed Mace to overpower him.' See?
And no, Kevin's opinions wouldn't matter much either if LFL decides otherwhise...dan's opinion said issue may not matter, but he sure as hell clarified on some semantics, like books/sourcebooks/comics, what he meant, etc.
Yes Kevin's opinions on it WOULD matter,considering he wrote both DE(I think) and TOTJ,LFL just hired this guy to type all of this up,Kevin made TOTJ (and possibly DE),he made all the facts,Dan didn't,Dan just provided his opinion,which doesn't matter in this case,because he didn't write TOTJ nor did he write DE.
Actually, no, he didn't write DE. LFL controls things, Dan wallace clarified tha.t They overwrote some of Kevin's stuff already. And Dan's opinion is still in an official source, which is the same as Zahn's, but noone complains about Thrawn being the best tactician, over Ackbar and Revan.
Kevin is far, far second to LFL, who decide things. No matter what he intended, it's been a decade and it can change
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Actually, no, he didn't write DE.
But actually Veitch did participate in writing TOTJ.
LFL controls things, Dan wallace clarified tha.t
Yes. We all know that. What's the point here ? I didn't see any LFL quote about "NJO Luke vs Ragnos" or a source stating that Luke would be able to defeat him. What I have is Luke post DE and the JA trilogy suggesting that it will need the combined power of the entire Jedi to try to stop a living Ragnos.
They overwrote some of Kevin's stuff already.
That cases for "overwriting" Kevin's stuff you have presented so far are more likely "things Kevin hasn't mentioned which got mentioned later".
And Dan's opinion is still in an official source, which is the same as Zahn's, but noone complains about Thrawn being the best tactician, over Ackbar and Revan.
Dan's personal opinion is in an official source that represents the personal opinion of a single in universe character from who's point of view said source is written.
And Thrawn is the best tactician ? Obviously he managed to become Grand Admiral (which is the second highest military title after a Grand Moff the Imperials have) despite the fact that he served an organisation that suppressed non-humans. This is the equivalent of a Jew becoming General in the German military under Hitler.
Considering that Thrawn has beaten New Republic Fleets which were commanded by Ackbar I'm inclined to say he is the better tactician.
Kevin is far, far second to LFL, who decide things. No matter what he intended, it's been a decade and it can change
Again. There is no official decission on who is the most powerful Sith Lord, as well as there is no comment how a fight between NJO Luke and Ragnos would end. So why you keep throwing LFL in ? It's useless.
He didn't participate in Golden Age, and Veitch helping there should be no different as there aren't concrete statements made.
Oh, and the Jedi Academy? Luke was talking about stopping Ragnos's ressurection. And that's Luke...twenty years before NJO.
Oh, Kevin deciding there weren't darths back in the Ancient Empire, that the Sith empire was...100,000 years old, the technology, and the Sith Empire being extinct from Sadow's time to Exar and from Exar's time to the Thousand year darkness..For the first there, Odan shows Nomi the Sith holocron and lists the age as 100,000 years...and other sources have expanded the Sith War heavily.
Oh, I agree on Thrawn, but Zahn rides him so much, it's irritating as hell. I was using him as an example.
Why I'm mentioning LFL: I'm just tired of people deciding the author holds ultimate authority on things.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Something about a guy who can damage star destroyers with the force, actively communicate with crystals, master numerous Jedi techniques, become an avatar of the force at one point, channeling the full power of the light like Jacen and Ganner have done, communicated with spirits that have passed on through the Force, broke the dark side presences on several areas, was described as a maelstrom of force energy, but calm and focused, fought through an army, killed the elite Vong warriors and then squared off with Overlord Shimrra, the greatest warrior the Vong had and killed him...he's also produced extremely powerful and real illusions, including fleets, almost instinctively taught himself dueling...
Damage star destroyers: Anyone with basic telekinesis can do the same. How about some context?
Actively communicate with crystals: Oh boy! Because this makes him a juggernaut of power!
Master numerous jedi techniques: So did Coleman Trebor.
Become an avatar of the Force: Defeated by your own words, since apparently Ganner and Jacen did it too. It ceases to be impressive once uniqueness is removed.
Described as a maelstrom: By whom? And this quantifies his power how in comparison to others?
Killed Vong/Shimrra: Whoopee. You only see them as impressive because they can/have beat down Luke's Jedi. How does this mean that they'd beat the Jedi or Sith of the Old Republic, who underwent better training and had a far superior knowledge base?
Produced illusion: Actually, from what I heard he was only able to make a ship, and the strain from doing so caused him to look like Palpatine temporarily.
This is in contrast to Naga Sadow, who was able to make multiple fleets and armies of tangible illusions that could kill their enemies.
Hell, it's in contrast to Aleema who was able to perform everything Sadow did, albeit on a smaller scale.
"Instinctively taught himself dueling": And this makes him better than people who had real training how? And where are you getting this? Pulled it out of your ass?
Damage star destroyers: Anyone with basic telekinesis can do the same. How about some context?
Actively communicate with crystals: Oh boy! Because this makes him a juggernaut of power!
Master numerous jedi techniques: So did Coleman Trebor.
Become an avatar of the Force: Defeated by your own words, since apparently Ganner and Jacen did it too. It ceases to be impressive once uniqueness is removed.
Described as a maelstrom: By whom? And this quantifies his power how in comparison to others?
Killed Vong/Shimrra: Whoopee. You only see them as impressive because they can/have beat down Luke's Jedi. How does this mean that they'd beat the Jedi or Sith of the Old Republic, who underwent better training and had a far superior knowledge base?
Produced illusion: Actually, from what I heard he was only able to make a ship, and the strain from doing so caused him to look like Palpatine temporarily.
This is in contrast to Naga Sadow, who was able to make multiple fleets and armies of tangible illusions that could kill their enemies.
Hell, it's in contrast to Aleema who was able to perform everything Sadow did, albeit on a smaller scale.
"Instinctively taught himself dueling": And this makes him better than people who had real training how? And where are you getting this? Pulled it out of your ass?
Yep... yep sure damaging a gigantic starship is the easiest thing ever... I bet Vader could do it since all it takes is basic telekinesis!
Yeah, actually. It'd require too much concentration to use practically but it can be done - just start ripping the hull apart.
Remember, I asked for context.
Yea... yea never mind the Vong wore lightsaber resistant armor, and were immune to the Force. Not to mention the fact that they were physically enhanced. Like the PT Jedi would do any better... or TOTJ.
Other force users wielded lightsabers (resistant to other lightsabers, remember?) and were immune to the Force insofar as they can counter it with their own Force powers. Other Force users (like, say, Dooku) were also "physically enhanced" with the Force - or did I imagine Dooku casually blocking two overhead swings from Obi-Wan and Anakin Skywalker (droid arm, remember?) with just one arm?
And why wouldn't the Old Jedi Order do better? They had better training from a wider selection of masters and they had an infinitely better knowledge base.
I would like to point out that Luke was able to hide an entire planet for a incredibly long period of time. And also make himself completely hidden in both the force and visually.
And from what I've heard, he hid the planet via a Force technique that didn't require him to constantly maintain the illusion, so that lessens the feat.
That and you seem to forget Kreia was able to make herself hidden in the same manner quite well, unless of course you've forgotten how the Disciple finally figures out that she's on the ship.
Your comparing him to Aleema? WTF?
Yeah, actually. Aleema's illusions are more impressive than Luke's.
Yea and killing a thousand or so Vong warriors and the Supreme Overlord is easy shit...
Maybe not for Luke's Jedi, but I believe the OJO would handle them far better.
Yea... yea never mind the Vong wore lightsaber resistant armor, and were immune to the Force.
The Vong are not entirely immune to the Force. They have to exist to some extent, because Anakin sensed them before he died, Tahiri in Edge of Victory almost kills a shaper by using the force to make a vacuum around the shaper's head, Kyp Durron uses Force Strike on the Vong in an earlier book, and it is exactly described as something which affects them only a little (but it still affected them slightly).
[B]Yeah, actually. It'd require too much concentration to use practically but it can be done - just start ripping the hull apart.Remember, I asked for context.
How much energy do you need to accelerate 3 ships with more than 1,500 feet length carrying more than 5,000 men (each) above lightspeed?
Other force users wielded lightsabers (resistant to other lightsabers, remember?) and were immune to the Force insofar as they can counter it with their own Force powers. Other Force users (like, say, Dooku) were also "physically enhanced" with the Force - or did I imagine Dooku casually blocking two overhead swings from Obi-Wan and Anakin Skywalker (droid arm, remember?) with just one arm? And why wouldn't the Old Jedi Order do better? They had better training from a wider selection of masters and they had an infinitely better knowledge base.
And from what I've heard, he hid the planet via a Force technique that didn't require him to constantly maintain the illusion, so that lessens the feat.
That and you seem to forget Kreia was able to make herself hidden in the same manner quite well, unless of course you've forgotten how the Disciple finally figures out that she's on the ship.
Yeah, actually. Aleema's illusions are more impressive than Luke's.
Maybe not for Luke's Jedi, but I believe the OJO would handle them far better.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
He didn't participate in Golden Age, and Veitch helping there should be no different as there aren't concrete statements made.
He did participate in TOTJ and DLotS meaning he helped creating Kun. Or to make it clearer. The TOTJ Jedi are Veitch's creations as it seems and Anderson is just responsible for Exar Kun. Simply read this:
http://www.darkhorse.com/news/interviews.php?id=667
Especially that part here:
"4,000 years in the past. I asked him if I could write a guest issue telling the origin of Exar Kun, but Tom was thinking much bigger. He said, "Let's do this grand epic where we pit your guy against my characters in a big war that wrecks half the galaxy." That certainly sounded more fun than a guest issue. So I worked with him on Dark Lords of the Sith. We plotted the whole 12 issues together, even though I wrote the last six of them solo."
And Kun did win all direct confrontations with the most powerful people of the TOTJ era order while Sidious lost to the 2nd in command of the PT era order and was only able to defeat the PT era Grandmaster because of taking advantage of the enviroment (aka taking the higher ground). And Kun - as far as we know - is not as powerful as Ragnos himself.
Oh, and the Jedi Academy? Luke was talking about stopping Ragnos's ressurection. And that's Luke...twenty years before NJO.
No. You're pulling that out of your ass. It doesn't make sense that Luke was referring to Ragnos resurrection here because Ragnos wasn't resurrected meaning he had no reason to talk about stopping Ragnos since he wasn't alive.
Oh, Kevin deciding there weren't darths back in the Ancient Empire,
Lmao. You know: The only "Darth" Kevin knew about was Vader and at this time the "Darth" was part of Vaders name and not a title for the Dark Lord of the Sith. In ANH Kenobi even calls Vader "Darth" as if this is his forename. And were is the contradiction here ? There is no source listing somebody with a "Darth" for the ancient Sith Empire - Revan and Malak used that title and both of them lived past Kun.
that the Sith empire was...100,000 years old, the technology, and the Sith Empire being extinct from Sadow's time to Exar and from Exar's time to the Thousand year darkness..For the first there, Odan shows Nomi the Sith holocron and lists the age as 100,000 years...and other sources have expanded the Sith War heavily.
Again:
- The Sith as a species were 100,000 years old. Contradiction ?
- The Sith Empire was extinct from Sadow's time to Exar - contradiction ?
- Where is it said that the "Sith" were gone from Exar to the pre-Ruusan Sith ?
- Odan says that the holocron contains stories which are 100,000 years old. That doesn't mean the holocron is 100,000 years old.
Why I'm mentioning LFL: I'm just tired of people deciding the author holds ultimate authority on things.
Read the interview with Anderson above. The parameters for the possibly powers of the Sith Lords were defined by Lucas himself and Lucas himself gave Anderson and Veitch "some incredible latitude on what we can do" because the story happens 5,000 - 4,000 years before the films. And Lucas overwrites everything else in terms of "canon".
Yea and never mind JA Luke pushed three Star Destroyers back into hyperspace from several thousands kilometres of range.
Actually, those were his students after JA when Daala returned with the Knight Hammer (I believe it was called) Super Star Destroyer. They pooled their powers and used the focusing attributes of the temples to perform the feat.
Arguing that just because a lightsaber blocks other lightsabers is like arguing that a sword is more protective than plate mail. Also yes I am aware the Jedi were enhanced physically, but my comment was more aimed towards your constant attempt to downplay the Vong. As much as I hate the Vong they are no pushovers like you seem to think they are. But I will concede the point the OJO had a better knowledge base.
If the Jedi needed any more protection, Veneficus, why didn't they wear it? Could it be that the lightsaber alone was sufficient defense?
You'd need to respond to my "attempts to downplay the Vong" with an actual argument if you wish to rebut them.
And this lessens the feat... how? Just because it was a one shot? Yep hiding an entire planet is easy as hell. Welcome the world of IKC.
It lessens it inasmuch as he didn't have to spend time, concentration, and energy in maintaining the illusion. Welcome to the world of simple logic.
Yea... lets see who else knew Kreia was on the ship... the Exile, Atton, Brianna (assuming the Exile was male), hell just about everyone on the ship. You know? The entire crew knew she was one the ship. It's like you being in my room without trying to hide yourself. I'd undoubtedly know you were there. Kreia was not trying to remain invisible on the ship...
No, not really. You should play through with a female character and get the Disciple again. His cutscenes involving Kreia toying with him are quite priceless and can easily lead one to believe that very few people on the ship knew she was there, among them Atton and probably Bao-Dur.
Point is, Luke's little skill is far from unique, nor does it make him particularly powerful.
The urge to say something sarcastic here is pretty strong. However, shamefully I don't know any of those fancy latin words you use all the time. However, suffice to say arguing that Aleema is anywhere near Luke is bullshit.
You should embrace that urge. Here, I'll show you how:
I'm stunned by your ability to form a cogent counterargument to my points. Wow, my assertion that Aleema's illusions are more impressive than Luke's (backed up by the evidence) has been shot to shit by your ability to say "bullshit!"
There you go, sarcasm. Embrace it.
You do realize that Luke accomplished this all but single handedly do you? With help form who... Jania and Jacen? And the actually number was closer to two thousand Vong warriors.
I don't recall spouting off a number, and you don't seem to understand my point: Maybe the Vong were difficult for Luke's Jedi to handle, but I believe the OJO would have performed far better.