NJO Luke vs Ragnos

Originally posted by IKC
Damage star destroyers: Anyone with basic telekinesis can do the same. How about some context?

Actively communicate with crystals: Oh boy! Because this makes him a juggernaut of power!

Master numerous jedi techniques: So did Coleman Trebor.

Become an avatar of the Force: Defeated by your own words, since apparently Ganner and Jacen did it too. It ceases to be impressive once uniqueness is removed.

Described as a maelstrom: By whom? And this quantifies his power how in comparison to others?

Killed Vong/Shimrra: Whoopee. You only see them as impressive because they can/have beat down Luke's Jedi. How does this mean that they'd beat the Jedi or Sith of the Old Republic, who underwent better training and had a far superior knowledge base?

Produced illusion: Actually, from what I heard he was only able to make a ship, and the strain from doing so caused him to look like Palpatine temporarily.

This is in contrast to Naga Sadow, who was able to make multiple fleets and armies of tangible illusions that could kill their enemies.

Hell, it's in contrast to Aleema who was able to perform everything Sadow did, albeit on a smaller scale.

"Instinctively taught himself dueling": And this makes him better than people who had real training how? And where are you getting this? Pulled it out of your ass?

1. Gee, when has any other Jedi manage to toss around star destroyers? 1,600 meters long ISDs? More than Naga Sadow could do. Oh, and name me another Jedi who could communicate with crystals? The farther the mind is removed from sentience, the stronger one needs to be in the force to reach it.

2. Gee, an army of Vong, breeds of Vong specially designed to kill Jedi and then their greatest warrior! Nothing impressive there! Nothing like say, mr. 'I appear dead in every story I'm in and never do any impressive'.

And the Ancient Sith's Coruscant invasion force was beaten back by...four Jedi. And the Sith were slaughtered by Massassi. Who are butchered in great numbers by the Jedi, a couple killed by Jori Daragon. And before you even try 'they were surprised': Dor Gal-Ram, form some kind of excuse for him when he had his back to the bulkhead screaming at that.

3. Coleman Trebor: Self acknowledge mediator. Luke mastered all of the deadliest combat techniques of the Jedi.

4. Wow, a technique done three times in special circumstances defeats the uniqueness! Doesn't change the fact that at that point, he was nigh omnipotent.

5. Jaina Solo describes Luke as a maelstorm of Force energy in TUF, so calm and focused he was unstoppable.

6. Luke and Palpatine, seperately created numerous fleets out of illusion, Palp did it when he retook the core worlds, Luke when he routed the alliance. Luke can also deflect the blasts from starships without breathing heavy. And manipulate solar flares without a ship, unlike say...Naga. Brakiss even said if Luke wanted to, he might be able to obliterate a star. On his own, after we saw Brakiss toy around with a star.

7. Power of the Jedi, Luke mastered dueling at a greater rate than most any other Jedi. Instinctively. And Truce at Bakura, he slaughters numerous Ssi-Ruuk and only four years later, bests one of the deadliest black ops team in the galaxy with a single lightsaber throw.

Originally posted by Borbarad
He did participate in TOTJ and DLotS meaning he helped creating Kun. Or to make it clearer. The TOTJ Jedi are Veitch's creations as it seems and Anderson is just responsible for Exar Kun. Simply read this:

http://www.darkhorse.com/news/interviews.php?id=667

Especially that part here:
"4,000 years in the past. I asked him if I could write a guest issue telling the origin of Exar Kun, but Tom was thinking much bigger. He said, "Let's do this grand epic where we pit your guy against my characters in a big war that wrecks half the galaxy." That certainly sounded more fun than a guest issue. So I worked with him on Dark Lords of the Sith. We plotted the whole 12 issues together, even though I wrote the last six of them solo."

And Kun did win all direct confrontations with the most powerful people of the TOTJ era order while Sidious lost to the 2nd in command of the PT era order and was only able to defeat the PT era Grandmaster because of taking advantage of the enviroment (aka taking the higher ground). And Kun - as far as we know - is not as powerful as Ragnos himself.

No. You're pulling that out of your ass. It doesn't make sense that Luke was referring to Ragnos resurrection here because Ragnos wasn't resurrected meaning he had no reason to talk about stopping Ragnos since he wasn't alive.

Lmao. You know: The only "Darth" Kevin knew about was Vader and at this time the "Darth" was part of Vaders name and not a title for the Dark Lord of the Sith. In ANH Kenobi even calls Vader "Darth" as if this is his forename. And were is the contradiction here ? There is no source listing somebody with a "Darth" for the ancient Sith Empire - Revan and Malak used that title and both of them lived past Kun.

Again:
- The Sith as a species were 100,000 years old. Contradiction ?
- The Sith Empire was extinct from Sadow's time to Exar - contradiction ?
- Where is it said that the "Sith" were gone from Exar to the pre-Ruusan Sith ?
- Odan says that the holocron contains stories which are 100,000 years old. That doesn't mean the holocron is 100,000 years old.

Read the interview with Anderson above. The parameters for the possibly powers of the Sith Lords were defined by Lucas himself and Lucas himself gave Anderson and Veitch "some incredible latitude on what we can do" because the story happens 5,000 - 4,000 years before the films. And Lucas overwrites everything else in terms of "canon".

Yoda admits he loses to Sidious in every source. And Kun fights...two Jedi. Who fight him without any means to defeat him. That's great, an incredible accomplishment. Neither Jedi ever showing any martial skil or any brains whatsoever. According to everything in the eU:
Yoda was unable to win
Yoda realized he couldn't win
in the ROTS novelization? Yoda realizes he can't beat Sidious when he runs.

Gee, Luke is only talking about sending the Jedi after Ragnos's forces and preventing his ressurection in that entire speech. he says nothing about fighting a living, breathing ragnos. The entire point of the attack is to stop Ragnos from returning and to defeat his cult.

"Darth Andeddu", ring any bells? entombed on Korriban, with a large tomb, traps and ancient sith gear.

Sith species one hundred thousand years old? Did they have holocrons in that time? Isn't the holocron a Jedi invention? And regardless: Anderson later put the emprie as before 7,000 BBY. And not to mention the 'first schism'.
Freedon Nadd joined the Ancient Sith empire and left in a huff because someone else was voted Dark Lord ahead of him. This from Dark Lords of the Sith.
Sith said to be extinct for quite some time in the JA trilogy. Hell, they were apparently still around before Revan and Malak even took power now.

Gee Lightsnake you never tire from you arguments do you? Is this an attempt to divert everyone to your beliefs? If so, i guess you'll fail.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yoda admits he loses to Sidious in every source.

I didn't hear him say "Damn. I lost to Sidious because he was too powerful for me" in the film. In the novel Stover explains it with a "change of philosophy" or "the more light you use against the Sith, the deeper their shadow grows" (or something like that). Not to mention that this is an irrelevant missdirection. Who was talking about Yoda vs Sidious here ?

And Kun fights...two Jedi.

I see. Math isn't your favourite subject, right ? We see Kun fighting:
- Crado
- Sylvar
- Vodo
- Odan
- Odd
- Ulic

That are 6 Jedi, as far as I see.

Who fight him without any means to defeat him. That's great, an incredible accomplishment.

Lmao. Vodo walks into the Senate Chamber and says that he will kill Ulic but "it's Exar Kun who has to be stopped". But he didn't have the intention to defeat him ? Sylvar wanted to defeat him in anger - and fails. Odan wants to stop him and get's force choked to death. Odd Bnar has to use the power of the planet Ossus to stop Kun from getting the lightsabers he's protecting - and that was enough to survive a supernova destroying the planets surface.

Neither Jedi ever showing any martial skil or any brains whatsoever.

Huh ? You are talking about the TOTJ people ? I suggest you read the comics.

Gee, Luke is only talking about sending the Jedi after Ragnos's forces and preventing his ressurection in that entire speech. he says nothing about fighting a living, breathing ragnos. The entire point of the attack is to stop Ragnos from returning and to defeat his cult.

In case you didn't realize it: Needing the combined power of all Jedi to stop a bunch of Dark Jedi led by an incompetent force user is laughable considering that Jaden alone was enough to defeat most of the Cult and Tavionn.

"Darth Andeddu", ring any bells? entombed on Korriban, with a large tomb, traps and ancient sith gear.

You may simply have a look at the comic and realize that he's a human thus not belonging to the Ancient Sith Empire.

Sith species one hundred thousand years old? Did they have holocrons in that time? Isn't the holocron a Jedi invention? And regardless: Anderson later put the emprie as before 7,000 BBY. And not to mention the 'first schism'.

Dude. I have a history book mentioning stuff that happened 2,000 or even 5,000 years in the past. Does that mean the book is 5,000 years old ? No.
And Anderson did nothing of that sort. The NEC did it and you know that LFL / Wallace are responsible for this. Not to mention that it's still written from the in universe perspective of a historian writing down the stuff several millenia after it happened.

Freedon Nadd joined the Ancient Sith empire and left in a huff because someone else was voted Dark Lord ahead of him. This from Dark Lords of the Sith.

The Sith (as a species) were extinct after the Great Hyperspace War. It's possible that some human Dark Jedi have taken over Korriban and called themselve Sith but obviously not with acknowledgement of the "real" Sith since they handed the Dark Lord title to Exar.

Sith said to be extinct for quite some time in the JA trilogy. Hell, they were apparently still around before Revan and Malak even took power now.

See above. The Tetan's destroyed them after the Great Hyperspace War.

Originally posted by IKC
If the Jedi needed any more protection, Veneficus, why didn't they wear it? Could it be that the lightsaber alone was sufficient defense?

Ah, great. So the TOTJ Jedi do suck know because of using battle armor which means that for them a lightsaber alone wasn't sufficient defense ? Nice to know that.

You'd need to respond to my "attempts to downplay the Vong" with an actual argument if you wish to rebut them.

How often do people have to make "pro-Vong" arguments ?

Here. Nom Anor. Member of the intendant class. This is what the Vong call a "politician".

The normal Vong was about twice as strong as a trained human warrior. The warriors are stronger, the Slayers stronger then the warriors and on top of that you have the Supreme Overlord Shimmra, a killing machine with 2.4 meters height. Now just give them all kinds of bio-engineered implants and equip them with stuff like:

Amphistaffs:
2-3 metre long serpents, lightsaber resistant, can be used as staff, spear and whip. Able to spray deatly toxin.

Thud bugs:
Living range combat weapons with homing abilities

Razor bugs:
Flying and living knives designed to pierce armor.

Bo'utus / Coomb spores:
The first one is inhaled in the lungs of a YV and when breathed out turns into insectlike creatures that are able to tear apart the target of the attack. The coomb spores are deadly since they break down the targets molicular level when inhaled.

voduun crab armor:
Lightsaber and blaster resistant.

And this is not even talking about Voxyns, designed to kill Jedi, that have venom / retroviruses on almost every part of their body and even their blood turns into a deadly neurotoxin combined with air.

Add the fact that all that the Vong aren't senseable through the force (which gives a Jedi / Sith enough trouble - same thing can be seen in Sadow Hunter) and are immune to direct force attacks so much that even force lightning used against them (by Jacen for example), powerful enough to affect the enviroment simply arched away from them. So I really wonder where you got the idea from that the Vong are somehow easy to defeat.
I don't like the idea behind the Vong but they are the most deadly group of non force users I have seen in the series so far.

It lessens it inasmuch as he didn't have to spend time, concentration, and energy in maintaining the illusion. Welcome to the world of simple logic.

Indeed very simple logic. Because you are missing the fact that Luke basically created a "loop" in the "flow" of the force to create the effect he wanted. So he basically didn't "use" the force but instead "influenced" it.

No, not really. You should play through with a female character and get the Disciple again. His cutscenes involving Kreia toying with him are quite priceless and can easily lead one to believe that very few people on the ship knew she was there, among them Atton and probably Bao-Dur.

This is great - especially because Kreia is visible the entire time and you have the entire crew standing around in front of your ship in one of the cutscenes on Nar Shadda with Kreia talking to the rest of the crew but maybe nobody did notice her.

Wow, my assertion that Aleema's illusions are more impressive than Luke's (backed up by the evidence)

Of course. The illusions were so powerful that Nomi Sunrider could destroy them with "a few weeks of training on Ossus". And Luke just:

- did hide away a planet, a massive starship and Vader's fortress for an infinite amount of time (Black Fleet trilogy)
- changed his appearance and kept that illusion up for more than a week while having his force power slowly drained (were Hethrir and friends couldn't even switch on their lightsabers any longer while being on the same place for some hours) and he even fooled a trained PT force user with that stuff (happened in Chrystal Star).
- created a force doppelganger able to interact with Leia (she even touched him) and fooled his sister with it (Dark Empire)

How are Aleema's illusions more impressive ? All she did is killing some non-force users, hiding Ulic's attack fleet (raid of that space station with the republic ships) and create some space grazers.

I don't recall spouting off a number, and you don't seem to understand my point: Maybe the Vong were difficult for Luke's Jedi to handle, but I believe the OJO would have performed far better.

Why would the OJO have performed better ? We're talking about lifeforms that can't be affected by the force directly or sensed through the force, have lightsaber resistant weapons and armor and have a pretty high physical strength. How would the OJO perform better without having any informations about the Vong which the NJO received through Vergere / Jacen ?

Originally posted by Borbarad
I didn't hear him say "Damn. I lost to Sidious because he was too powerful for me" in the film. In the novel Stover explains it with a "change of philosophy" or "the more light you use against the Sith, the deeper their shadow grows" (or something like that). Not to mention that this is an irrelevant missdirection. Who was talking about Yoda vs Sidious here ?

I see. Math isn't your favourite subject, right ? We see Kun fighting:
- Crado
- Sylvar
- Vodo
- Odan
- Odd
- Ulic

That are 6 Jedi, as far as I see.

Lmao. Vodo walks into the Senate Chamber and says that he will kill Ulic but "it's Exar Kun who has to be stopped". But he didn't have the intention to defeat him ? Sylvar wanted to defeat him in anger - and fails. Odan wants to stop him and get's force choked to death. Odd Bnar has to use the power of the planet Ossus to stop Kun from getting the lightsabers he's protecting - and that was enough to survive a supernova destroying the planets surface.

Huh ? You are talking about the TOTJ people ? I suggest you read the comics.

In case you didn't realize it: Needing the combined power of all Jedi to stop a bunch of Dark Jedi led by an incompetent force user is laughable considering that Jaden alone was enough to defeat most of the Cult and Tavionn.

You may simply have a look at the comic and realize that he's a human thus not belonging to the Ancient Sith Empire.

Dude. I have a history book mentioning stuff that happened 2,000 or even 5,000 years in the past. Does that mean the book is 5,000 years old ? No.
And Anderson did nothing of that sort. The NEC did it and you know that LFL / Wallace are responsible for this. Not to mention that it's still written from the in universe perspective of a historian writing down the stuff several millenia after it happened.

The Sith (as a species) were extinct after the Great Hyperspace War. It's possible that some human Dark Jedi have taken over Korriban and called themselve Sith but obviously not with acknowledgement of the "real" Sith since they handed the Dark Lord title to Exar.

See above. The Tetan's destroyed them after the Great Hyperspace War.

That's great. the novel's EU and C-canon. Yoda leaves, realizes he's incapable of killing Sidious.

Apologies, I thought we were only using Kun as a Sith lord. Defeating Crado and Sylvar aren't what I'd call incredible feats, he ties with Ulic and kills ODan and Vodo...Odan who'd never shown himself capable of any kind of power and Vodo as a complete incompetent. Must be KJA's bad writing.

Vodo continuously tells Exar to renounce the darkside and fights him with a stick, and doesn't even try to use the force on him. Brilliant, Vodo...and Bnar's survival was something natural to Neti in their advanced stages of life. Notice Kun didn't try to attack Ood when Ood's metamorphisis was complete...and one of Palpatine's far flunkies was able to match power with Ood drawing up energy from Ossus's core.

Luke's entire speech is talking about stopping Ragnos from being ressurected. This is after the Academy was weakened by the subsequent assaults of Daala, Desann, Hethrir, The Jensaari...Hell, Luke directly says they need to stop ragnos from coming back, is he changing his tune suddenly? And once more, what does Luke know on the subject of all things Ragnos?

Do your history books take place in a fictional world?

Why does Vodo's holocron then mention Nadd left the Sith Empire because he wasn't chosen Dark Lord? KJA's bad writing? Yep.

And once again: Vodo and the TOTJ SBK say how Nadd left because another-young by 'Sith standards- was voted Dark Lord in his place.

Apologies, I thought we were only using Kun as a Sith lord. Defeating Crado and Sylvar aren't what I'd call incredible feats, he ties with Ulic and kills ODan and Vodo...Odan who'd never shown himself capable of any kind of power and Vodo as a complete incompetent. Must be KJA's bad writing.

Yes, Odan, who became proficient in blocking the Ancient Sith from the Force, is somehow an incompetant.

Need I remind you that appeal to ridicule is a logical fallacy? By what passes for your "logic," the entire Galactic Empire and the Vong are "incompetants" for failing to kill two men (Han, Luke), a woman (Leia), and two droids.

Vodo continuously tells Exar to renounce the darkside and fights him with a stick, and doesn't even try to use the force on him. Brilliant, Vodo...

Could it be that he fights him with a stick because he's confident in his abilities? Oh no, Lightsnake Logic (tm) dictates that he must be an arrogant fool with his head up his ass and no power to speak of... despite the fact that he was able to manifest himself four thousand years later (whereas our precious Yoda couldn't hack a decade) to help defeat Kun.

Notice Kun didn't try to attack Ood when Ood's metamorphisis was complete..

Notice context. Ood was sitting on the lightsabers that Exar desired to possess. Had Exar blown him up, he'd have ruined what he came for.

Originally posted by IKC
Yes, Odan, who became proficient in blocking the Ancient Sith from the Force, is somehow an incompetant.

Need I remind you that appeal to ridicule is a logical fallacy? By what passes for your "logic," the entire Galactic Empire and the Vong are "incompetants" for failing to kill two men (Han, Luke), a woman (Leia), and two droids.

Could it be that he fights him with a stick because he's confident in his abilities? Oh no, Lightsnake Logic (tm) dictates that he must be an arrogant fool with his head up his ass and no power to speak of... despite the fact that he was able to manifest himself four thousand years later (whereas our precious Yoda couldn't hack a decade) to help defeat Kun.

Notice context. Ood was sitting on the lightsabers that Exar desired to possess. Had Exar blown him up, he'd have ruined what he came for.

Proof those Sith were powerful. We've only ever see Odan screw up. And you're trying to change the subject. The Vong never focused on Han, Luke, Leia etc, Tsavong focused on Jacen and got him. The Empire

And by IKC logic: He fights with a stick cause he's so cool! Never mind he can't actively kill or best a dark lord of the stick with a piece of wood! If Vodo was using a saber, he might still be alive-they don't tend to, y'know, break. And if you have a chance to jab a man in the chest, a saber works better because it can actually kill people.

Ok, Exar had a possibly chance of destroying what he wanted...or a hundred percent chance of losing it by leaving it for behind. Or simply, y'know, activate his saber and chop some wood, have Kalgrath and the other massassi pull the stump out when Ood was dead...

And gee, could Vodo appearing be because he was directly summoned by the Jedi? Yep. Trying to argue with the book now?

Proof those Sith were powerful. We've only ever see Odan screw up. And you're trying to change the subject. The Vong never focused on Han, Luke, Leia etc, Tsavong focused on Jacen and got him. The Empire

Prove the Ancient Sith were powerful? I think that point has already been well established. And absence of proof is not proof of absence.

No, an analogy is not changing the subject, especially when it points out the utter vacancy of logic in your argument.

And by IKC logic: He fights with a stick cause he's so cool! Never mind he can't actively kill or best a dark lord of the stick with a piece of wood! If Vodo was using a saber, he might still be alive-they don't tend to, y'know, break. And if you have a chance to jab a man in the chest, a saber works better because it can actually kill people.

Yeah. Because I used the word "cool" anywhere in my argument, rather than saying that Vodo was confident enough in his abilities to face Exar Kun alone armed with a stick.

How could I ever get this idea? Oh, my, it couldn't be the two-page monologue Vodo has to this effect a few pages before the battle, could it?

Were Vodo fighting with a saber, he'd have likely been killed with his own blade as Kun forced it into him, I surmise.

Ok, Exar had a possibly chance of destroying what he wanted...or a hundred percent chance of losing it by leaving it for behind. Or simply, y'know, activate his saber and chop some wood, have Kalgrath and the other massassi pull the stump out when Ood was dead...

That or he wasn't interested in the hassle of having to blast Ood and having lightsabers explode in his face. Note how he leaves almost immediately afterwards?

And stop giving names to the unnamed Massassi. Your unsupported assumptions are legion enough.

And gee, could Vodo appearing be because he was directly summoned by the Jedi? Yep. Trying to argue with the book now?

Seeing as I have the book and it doesn't read that he was summoned, no. Making shit up again?

Originally posted by IKC
Prove the Ancient Sith were powerful? I think that point has already been well established. And absence of proof is not proof of absence.

No, an analogy is not changing the subject, especially when it points out the utter vacancy of logic in your argument.

Yeah. Because I used the word "cool" anywhere in my argument, rather than saying that Vodo was confident enough in his abilities to face Exar Kun alone armed with a stick.

How could I ever get this idea? Oh, my, it couldn't be the two-page monologue Vodo has to this effect a few pages before the battle, could it?

Were Vodo fighting with a saber, he'd have likely been killed with his own blade as Kun forced it into him, I surmise.

That or he wasn't interested in the hassle of having to blast Ood and having lightsabers explode in his face. Note how he leaves almost immediately afterwards?

And stop giving names to the unnamed Massassi. Your unsupported assumptions are legion enough.

Seeing as I have the book and it doesn't read that he was summoned, no. Making shit up again?

Proof please. Dor Gal-ram and Horak Muul were powerful? Proof the ancient Sith Odan blocked were powerful.

An incorrect analogy is. Is real life relevant to a fictional setting whose writers are still alive?

Proof Vodo was confident enough in his abilities. He just tried a 'I must do this alone.' Which is selfish, whiny and idiotic. Sylvar has as much a stake in fighting Kun has Vodo does, as do Nomi and Cay. Once more: He uses a stick. Yeah, confidence? Confidence isn't always a good thing.

Classic Star Wars comics, Chronology. TOTJ sourcebook: The Massassi's name is Kalgrath, who becomes the Night Beast. Go on swcomics.com, find Classic Star Wars.

So...Kun decided to NOT take a chance to lose the sabers when he could have stepped back a few paces and fired and decided to lose everything?

Chronology and I, Jedi btw for Kun;s vanquish...brilliant Sith Lord, walking into a trap, getting outwitted by Padawans.

We've only ever see Odan screw up.

You talk about downplaying Luke's abilities, hell you downplay Odan's to death. Memit Nadill even says that thanks to Odan-Urr "we're saved", notice he was talking to Odan, saying his thanks for saving them otherwise they would've been doomed. But, of course, Odan isn't a very good fighter, or at the least, is an incompetant just like everyone in TOTJ is according to you. However, the comic trumps your opinion on Odan-Urr not being a proficient fighter.

And, it was obvious Exar was in a hurry when dealing with Ood, given he states things such as "We have little time to take it all for ourselves!" and "We don't have time to waste.".

Tell THAT to the soldiers who just died because ODan's battle meditation made the Kirrek seperatists fight harder...tell that to the Daragons. And battle meditation isn't what one calls fighting...and he just stood around uselessly at the battle for Kirrek when one soldiers yelled at him to help them with the invading Sith

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Tell THAT to the soldiers who just died because ODan's battle meditation made the Kirrek seperatists fight harder...tell that to the Daragons. And battle meditation isn't what one calls fighting...and he just stood around uselessly at the battle for Kirrek when one soldiers yelled at him to help them with the invading Sith

I'll tell that to the soldiers that were saved by Odan's meditation. Hell, everyone makes mistakes. Also, he saved the Daragons once too, so really why do you keep saying he's incompetant when it's shown he's clearly not. And, you said:

Odan who'd never shown himself capable of any kind of power

Power would include power in the Force, and Odan obviously was quite capable in the Force, using battle meditation and being proficient in blocking people from the Force as mentioned.

When your battle meditation backfires, makes the enemy fight harder...and if the Daragons weren;t orphaned, a LOT of trouble'd never have happened...and incompetence also applies to standing around uselessly in a big battle.

Proof please. Dor Gal-ram and Horak Muul were powerful? Proof the ancient Sith Odan blocked were powerful.

Oh no, the Ancient Sith that Odan blocked couldn't have been powerful. They just came from a culture whose relics created powerhouses of the Dark Side for eons to come. Lightsnake dictates that they weren't powerful because Odan was able to block them, and Odan must be incompetant because it makes Luke "Slugger" Skywalker look good, nevermind that Odan's forgotten more about the Force than Luke will ever know...

An incorrect analogy is. Is real life relevant to a fictional setting whose writers are still alive?

Pardon? Who here was using real life analogies? Reading comprehension, much?

Oh, and it'd still be relevant even if I did.

Proof Vodo was confident enough in his abilities. He just tried a 'I must do this alone.' Which is selfish, whiny and idiotic. Sylvar has as much a stake in fighting Kun has Vodo does, as do Nomi and Cay. Once more: He uses a stick. Yeah, confidence? Confidence isn't always a good thing.

Let's see, proof is such: Two page monologue to the effect, Vodo's dialogue (It is Exar Kun who must be stopped... Not Ulic) before the fight, etc.

Yeah. I'd say that he was damned confident enough to confront Exar Kun with the intent to stop him armed with his trusty stick. Vodo can not be faulted for underestimating Kun's growth in power and skill.

Classic Star Wars comics, Chronology. TOTJ sourcebook: The Massassi's name is Kalgrath, who becomes the Night Beast. Go on swcomics.com, find Classic Star Wars.

Actual primary source: The Massassi is unnamed. And there's more than one mutated Massassi, among them Zythmnr. You have enough unsupported assumptions, you don't need to keep adding them.

So...Kun decided to NOT take a chance to lose the sabers when he could have stepped back a few paces and fired and decided to lose everything?

Given the destructive power of his beams, what would the point be? They would have been lost anyway.

I like how you don't consider the fact that perhaps Kun wanted Ood to suffer through the supernovae.

Chronology and I, Jedi btw for Kun;s vanquish...brilliant Sith Lord, walking into a trap, getting outwitted by Padawans.

No, Champions of the Force for Kun's defeat.

And do I have to remind you again that he was a weakened, 4000 year old, half-insane spirit?

"Brilliant Sith, getting benchpressed into a reactor core by a one-handed cripple in a breathing suit."

Appeal to ridicule works both ways. Problem is, your guy was close to his prime.

PRoof they were powerful. I want direct quotes and the fight itself. I recall Dor Gal-ram getting slaughtered by a group of Massassi when he was FACING them and screaming...Proof please.

Is real life a fictional setting written by people who are still alive? No? Ok then.

Actually, Vodo can, because he hd a perfect chance and missed it. So, yep, that's Vodo's screw up.

Classic Star Wars comic series aren't a primary source? The original EC and TOTJ sourcebook written by KJA aren't primary? And for the record, their story info counts as much as any of TOTJ.

Kun wanted Ood to suffer more than he wanted the sabers and whatever else Ood had? Man, that's both idiotic and petty

I, Jedi and EC are perfectly acceptable sources, need I post what proves it? want to ask Dan? I, Jedi features Kun. And weakened? Proof? He was tied to the temple, with the dark side energy there and the ritual was designed to unleash him as a mighty spirit, free to walk the cosmos for eternity...so he's incompetent and didn't take into account what being a spirit would entail? And once more: He was smart enough to organize all else of what he did, he was tricked by Padawans, period.

And Palpatine killed...by the Chosen One? And that wasn't his final defeat either in the EU which is what this debate entails? Wow! Close to his prime? He's over eighty and his very power, absorbed from numerous locations across the galaxy and the dark side itself rots his body.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
PRoof they were powerful. I want direct quotes and the fight itself. I recall Dor Gal-ram getting slaughtered by a group of Massassi when he was FACING them and screaming...Proof please.

The pinacle of idiocity so far. Proof that ancient Sith were powerful ?
Oh well...can it be that the rulers of an Empire (the Sith Lords) which does work with the motto "The strongest shall rule" are indeed powerful. Ah no. This can't be because one of them was killed in a surprise attack by a group of his inferior subordinates.
By this logic Palpatine isn't powerful either.

Actually, Vodo can, because he hd a perfect chance and missed it. So, yep, that's Vodo's screw up.

Lmao. Downplaying characters much ? Ok...
Luke in ESB had a perfect chance to defeat Vader and missed it.
Sidious in ROTJ had a perfect chance to kill Luke and missed it.
Vader in ANH had a perfect chance to kill Luke and missed it.
etc.
Man...every character in the SW series makes mistakes. Damn. What a bunch of non-threatening dumbasses.

Kun wanted Ood to suffer more than he wanted the sabers and whatever else Ood had? Man, that's both idiotic and petty

Wake up. Ood apparently had powered himself up enough (by using the power of Ossus itself) to survive a direct hit by a supernova. What exactly should Kun have done ? I'm pretty sure that a supernova > Kun's amulet and Kun's lightsaber. Not to forget that he had no time left to waste it with trying to cut Ood down.

I, Jedi and EC are perfectly acceptable sources, need I post what proves it?

How often do I have to tell you that the omnicient narrator in source X is superior to the in universe character from which perspective source Y is written ? Does Corran Horn somehow pocess more knowledge than an omnicient narrator ?

He was tied to the temple, with the dark side energy there and the ritual was designed to unleash him as a mighty spirit, free to walk the cosmos for eternity...so he's incompetent and didn't take into account what being a spirit would entail? And once more: He was smart enough to organize all else of what he did, he was tricked by Padawans, period.

Lmao. There was a ritual to unleash him as a spirit, yes, but instead he was bount to the temple. So obviously the ritual went wrong. And of course he isn't half mad despite the fact that serveral people (including himself) said so - remember: He just spent 4,000 years on Yavin 4 without somebody to speak to. I guess this can make you pretty insane, yes.
And he was tricked by Padawans ? Right. So because they casually showed up when he was about to pwn Luke using Streen's abilities they did trick him ? Because they had the luck to have Streen with special abilities which prevented them from getting force choked to death by Kun's spirit all at once they tricked him ? Allright...

And Palpatine killed...by the Chosen One? And that wasn't his final defeat either in the EU which is what this debate entails? Wow! Close to his prime? He's over eighty and his very power, absorbed from numerous locations across the galaxy and the dark side itself rots his body.

He still had his ass handed to a mechanical Sith Lord that only one arm left at this time. Chosen One or not. And wow...then he got his ass handed to Luke and Leia and I don't see one of them being the chosen one. And omg...then he has his ass handed to Han. Another Chosen one ?

Originally posted by Borbarad
The pinacle of idiocity so far. Proof that ancient Sith were powerful ?
Oh well...can it be that the rulers of an Empire (the Sith Lords) which does work with the motto "The strongest shall rule" are indeed powerful. Ah no. This can't be because one of them was killed in a surprise attack by a group of his inferior subordinates.
By this logic Palpatine isn't powerful either.

Lmao. Downplaying characters much ? Ok...
Luke in ESB had a perfect chance to defeat Vader and missed it.
Sidious in ROTJ had a perfect chance to kill Luke and missed it.
Vader in ANH had a perfect chance to kill Luke and missed it.
etc.
Man...every character in the SW series makes mistakes. Damn. What a bunch of non-threatening dumbasses.

Wake up. Ood apparently had powered himself up enough (by using the power of Ossus itself) to survive a direct hit by a supernova. What exactly should Kun have done ? I'm pretty sure that a supernova > Kun's amulet and Kun's lightsaber. Not to forget that he had no time left to waste it with trying to cut Ood down.

How often do I have to tell you that the omnicient narrator in source X is superior to the in universe character from which perspective source Y is written ? Does Corran Horn somehow pocess more knowledge than an [b]omnicient narrator ?

Lmao. There was a ritual to unleash him as a spirit, yes, but instead he was bount to the temple. So obviously the ritual went wrong. And of course he isn't half mad despite the fact that serveral people (including himself) said so - remember: He just spent 4,000 years on Yavin 4 without somebody to speak to. I guess this can make you pretty insane, yes.
And he was tricked by Padawans ? Right. So because they casually showed up when he was about to pwn Luke using Streen's abilities they did trick him ? Because they had the luck to have Streen with special abilities which prevented them to get force choked to death by Kun's spirit all at once they tricked him ? Allright...

He still had his ass handed to a mechanical Sith Lord that only one arm left at this time. Chosen One or not. And wow...then he got his ass handed to Luke and Leia and I don't see one of them being the chosen one. And omg...then he has his ass handed to Han. Another Chosen one ? [/B]

Proof the Ancient Sith Odan used that technique on were more powerful because apparently it works on them and not Kun. And surprise attack? The surprise wore off a while back with Dol, we see him FACING THEM, yelling about how they're his slaves as they advance...and proof the Sith Odan fought were lords?

Msot characters tend to at least go into battle with the means to beat an enemy...y'know, as opposed to sticks and not utilizing your allies?

Oh, how long was there before Ossus was hit? Enough for Ulic to fight, kill Cay, get blinded to the Force, everyone to evacuate...So, now Ood in his tree form was stronger than Kun to survive an assault from him?

Oh, so Palpatine and Luke are divinities? Said by omniscient narrarator...and the omniscient narrarator of TOTJ has forgotten the name of the planet Ooroo's praxeum was on...real omniscient.

In I, Jedi: "Kun is walking into a trap." After he laughs, "Streen, yes, MY Streen!" And vanishes, they reveal they set the trap for him.

Did Vader kill him permanently? No. Vader the Chosen One destined to defeat Palp? Yep. Did he care if Han to shoot him because he could get Anakin? Yes. He even gloated over it. Forgot where he tries to possess Anakin and Brand intercepts him?

And did Luke and Leia channel the entire Lightside to portect Palpatine from the Dark, leading to his defeat. Yep. Posted the passage before, it's in DE from the omniscient narrarator....

I stand with Lightsnake as most of you will have guessed. Luke's got way more going for him than an old fossil that never fought a battle we know of. Oh don't give me that whole absence of proof is not proof of absence crap. Otherwise just about every freaking character could be more powerful than Luke, even though they haven't done diddly doesn't mean they can't do it. There's no proof that says Aurra Sing couldn't shoot Force Lightning so powerful it fries Luke like popcorn chicken but no one rates her powerful.

Oh and Naga blew up a star. Wow. That's it. Luke manipulated a black hole and blowing up a star wouldn't really help Ragnos even if he could do it anyway unless he wants to kill them both. Kreia even says he manipulated his enemies against each other. Out of fear perhaps? Anyway Lightsnake even though I just did it, its really mostly a waste of time to try and argue against the 'god' Ragnos because these people can't change their minds and they want to think a guy barely mentioned in a few star wars materials is all powerful even though he's displayed no power whatsoever.

Holy shit! It's ER.