NJO Luke vs Ragnos

Originally posted by Jonathan Mark
Holy shit! It's ER.

Yes, he's come out of the woodwork to spill more idiocy.

I stand with Lightsnake as most of you will have guessed. Luke's got way more going for him than an old fossil that never fought a battle we know of. Oh don't give me that whole absence of proof is not proof of absence crap. Otherwise just about every freaking character could be more powerful than Luke, even though they haven't done diddly doesn't mean they can't do it. There's no proof that says Aurra Sing couldn't shoot Force Lightning so powerful it fries Luke like popcorn chicken but no one rates her powerful.

Do you know what a "premise" is?

No? Here's a dictionary. When Aurra rules over an empire where the entire philosophy is to gain and horde power, and who's remnant artifacts and knowledge make generations of people strong and is called canonically as godlike, you can make that comparison. Elsewise, you're talking out of your ass.

Oh and Naga blew up a star. Wow. That's it. Luke manipulated a black hole and blowing up a star wouldn't really help Ragnos even if he could do it anyway unless he wants to kill them both. Kreia even says he manipulated his enemies against each other. Out of fear perhaps? Anyway Lightsnake even though I just did it, its really mostly a waste of time to try and argue against the 'god' Ragnos because these people can't change their minds and they want to think a guy barely mentioned in a few star wars materials is all powerful even though he's displayed no power whatsoever.

So then the Vong are godly because they created the black hole in the first place?

Is Aleema stronger than Luke because her illusions were on the same, if not a bigger scale, than Luke's? Pointless feat wars.

Kreia also said that the ancient Sith made those of her era look like children. But you don't seem to think that quote applies to Revan. Why do we think Ragnos is powerful? Because the argument on the other side relies on little logical form and all about "well, he has no proof, ergo he sucks."

Illuvatar has little showings, does he suck? The One Above All has little showings, does he suck? The Presence doesn't have many showings, does he suck? This one-sided logic when you see it fit is really both annoying and absurdly stupid.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Proof the Ancient Sith Odan used that technique on were more powerful because apparently it works on them and not Kun.

And now ? What does this mean ? We don't know in which situation he used it - we don't even know if he used it against them on his own. And what do you want to tell me ? Do you want to judge Ragnos power by the power of numbers 10-20 in the "line of power" of the Ancient Sith Empire.

Apparently Ragnos was powerful enough to make Kressh and Sadow drop on their knees when he appeared as a spirit while Ludo suggests that he has come back to destroy Sadow. Wow. Kressh thinks that even Ragnos spirit is > Sadow (and thereby > him). And apparently Sadow and Kressh were superior to the other Sith Lords as only one of them would have been able to claim the Dark Lord title. So even if the rest of the Sith Lords should be inferior to Kun, that doesn't say something about Ragnos power.

And surprise attack? The surprise wore off a while back with Dol, we see him FACING THEM, yelling about how they're his slaves as they advance...and proof the Sith Odan fought were lords?

Wow. He was yelling at them. Yes, he wasn't surprised by his "slaves" turning against him of course. Same way Sidious wasn't surprise when Vader tossed him into the DS reactor, right ?
And what the hell has Odan to do with this fight ?

Msot characters tend to at least go into battle with the means to beat an enemy...y'know, as opposed to sticks and not utilizing your allies?

Lmao. Vodo apparently thought he could take down Kun on his own because - omg - he defeated him before. Is Yoda now a complete idiot too because he did send Obi-Wan to stop Anakin instead of trying to defeat Sidious with Obi-Wan's help ?

Oh, how long was there before Ossus was hit? Enough for Ulic to fight, kill Cay, get blinded to the Force, everyone to evacuate...So, now Ood in his tree form was stronger than Kun to survive an assault from him?

Again: Ood survived a SUPERNOVA hitting the planet. What should Kun have done to kill somebody who could survive getting hit by a SUPERNOVA ? He wasn't "stronger" than Kun because otherwise he would just have killed Kun - but in his "tree form" he wasn't defeatable.

Oh, so Palpatine and Luke are divinities? Said by omniscient narrarator...and the omniscient narrarator of TOTJ has forgotten the name of the planet Ooroo's praxeum was on...real omniscient.

Oh, they are divinities because you can hand me a scan saying so. Because apparently I can't find said line in the comics.
And the omnicient narrator stating that "XYZ was forgotten" (so clearly refering to other people not knowing it) does mean jack shit.

In I, Jedi: "Kun is walking into a trap." After he laughs, "Streen, yes, MY Streen!" And vanishes, they reveal they set the trap for him.

Omnicient narrator aka Kevin J. Anderson > Corran Horn in universe aka Michael Stackpole.

Did Vader kill him permanently? No. Vader the Chosen One destined to defeat Palp? Yep.

What a great logic. So Vader was the Chosen One destined to defeat Palp but - he didn't defeat Palp ? Nice argument here.

Did he care if Han to shoot him because he could get Anakin? Yes. He even gloated over it. Forgot where he tries to possess Anakin and Brand intercepts him?

Oh. He didn't care about all the Jedi arround who could maybe intercept his attempt to posess Anakin. What a great thinker he is.

And did Luke and Leia channel the entire Lightside to portect Palpatine from the Dark, leading to his defeat. Yep. Posted the passage before, it's in DE from the omniscient narrarator....

Where does it say "the entire power of the lightside" that's your interpretation of the lines given. They just take power from everywhere but that's not the entire power from everywhere because that would be a force drain and kill off everything that is drained (see Nihilus and KotoR 2 for details).

Originally posted by Illustrious
Yes, he's come out of the woodwork to spill more idiocy.

Do you know what a "premise" is?

No? Here's a dictionary. When Aurra rules over an empire where the entire philosophy is to gain and horde power, and who's remnant artifacts and knowledge make generations of people strong and is called canonically as godlike, you can make that comparison. Elsewise, you're talking out of your ass.

So then the Vong are godly because they created the black hole in the first place?

Is Aleema stronger than Luke because her illusions were on the same, if not a bigger scale, than Luke's? Pointless feat wars.

Kreia also said that the ancient Sith made those of her era look like children. But you don't seem to think that quote applies to Revan. Why do we think Ragnos is powerful? Because the argument on the other side relies on little logical form and all about "well, he has no proof, ergo he sucks."

Illuvatar has little showings, does he suck? The One Above All has little showings, does he suck? The Presence doesn't have many showings, does he suck? This one-sided logic when you see it fit is really both annoying and absurdly stupid.

Except we know a few things about the Sith: They MOURN Simus's death, and there's little room for interpretation there...we know Ragnos's main tactic as a ruler was to pit the lords against themselves to solidify his own grip.

Plus, the Vong use TECHNOLOGY, not the Force, and Aleema's illusions are roughly equal with Luke, but could Aleema's illusions be so lifelike you could actually interact with them for days at a time? Illusions are hardly combat savvy and can be dispelled by a skilled force user.

Ragnos, unlike Eru, is NOT a god....that's taking apples and oranges completely. It says "Take the guy you know's a god against the guy who you know is powerful, but whom you're comparing to other, strong people." It doesn't work. Ragnos is never once stated to completely own every other Darksider/force user, past or present. what Sidious did was apparently created by him and his power and if the Ancients could do what he did without their technology-and KJA wrote that it was the electrical weapon on Sadow's ship- Then Ludo wouldn't have died how he did, and a fleet converging on Sadow's location would never be a problem. We saw one of the Sith Lords get killed by Massassi when he was facing them, yelling they were his slaves.

Ragnos has never shown mastery over what Sidious has been shown to. Not his fault, but we know Sidious's knowledge does exceed Marka's, if by default that he knows what the Jedi of old and the Sith of old did...Palpatine is described as a manifestation of the dark side, divinity, a titan, darkness incarnate, so powerful in the dark side, you can't beat him by fighting him, it needs all the Jedi of eons past to seal his soul forever. We've also had the knowledge Palpatine drained worlds of the force and life

Originally posted by Borbarad
And now ? What does this mean ? We don't know in which situation he used it - we don't even know if he used it against them on his own. And what do you want to tell me ? Do you want to judge Ragnos power by the power of numbers 10-20 in the "line of power" of the Ancient Sith Empire.
Exactly, we don't know. So it can't be used in a debate as it's conjecture. Considering most of the Sith Lords were dead by the time of Jedi genocide, too...

Apparently Ragnos was powerful enough to make Kressh and Sadow drop on their knees when he appeared as a spirit while Ludo suggests that he has come back to destroy Sadow. Wow. Kressh thinks that even Ragnos spirit is > Sadow (and thereby > him). And apparently Sadow and Kressh were superior to the other Sith Lords as only one of them would have been able to claim the Dark Lord title. So even if the rest of the Sith Lords should be inferior to Kun, that doesn't say something about Ragnos power.
I want proof it was power. And Ludo is psychotically sychophantic...look how he acts at the funeral! For someone so powerful, Ragnos's spirit couldn't touch Jaden, didn't respond to Sadow violating his last wishes or Sadow basically telling him to **** off. And the Sith admired and revered Ragnos, that's a fact. Why, if ragnos is able to, is he not putting Naga in his place for basically telling him to go away, ignoring what he says and screwing the empire over completely?

Wow. He was yelling at them. Yes, he wasn't surprised by his "slaves" turning against him of course. Same way Sidious wasn't surprise when Vader tossed him into the DS reactor, right ?
And what the hell has Odan to do with this fight ?
When your back's against the wall, you're bleeding and yelling feeble 'buts' and you're supposed to be a high Sith Lord. In Palp's defense, his weakness was spelled out before hand and he managed to fight back and mortally wound Vader...once more, EU-wise, he wasn't particularly concerned about losing a body or two. There's no excuse for Dol not reaction, when he knew they were turning on him and apparently had time to put his back to the wall. Trained, centuries old warriors should know hesitance, even by shock can be a matter of life and death.

Lmao. Vodo apparently thought he could take down Kun on his own because - omg - he defeated him before. Is Yoda now a complete idiot too because he did send Obi-Wan to stop Anakin instead of trying to defeat Sidious with Obi-Wan's help ?
Vodo freely ADMITTED Kun beat him...Kun defeated Vodo right after Vodo had round one. Vodo also doesn't use the force with the other Jedi there, all of whom deserve a shot at Kun as much as Vodo, or get a saber to have a chance of at least injuring Kun...and considering Yoda and Obi-wan were two men and would have to get through a darkside legion, plus the entire imperial army and then to Palpatine who'd only gotten more powerful. Luke was the last ditch effort, the empty gun they threw.

Again: Ood survived a [b]SUPERNOVA hitting the planet. What should Kun have done to kill somebody who could survive getting hit by a SUPERNOVA ? He wasn't "stronger" than Kun because otherwise he would just have killed Kun - but in his "tree form" he wasn't defeatable.[/B]
He survived a supernova shockwave, and that's because his tree form's naturally resistant. Did Kun know all about Neti bioloogy?

Oh, they are divinities because you can hand me a scan saying so. Because apparently I can't find said line in the comics.
And the omnicient narrator stating that "XYZ was forgotten" (so clearly refering to other people not knowing it) does mean jack shit.

I can write it out, as I have before. And the omniscient narrarator, right after the opening credits, which show this is a retelling from five thousand years ago...hands opening a scroll with the title crawl written on them? Why has the omniscient narrarator forgotten the name?

Omnicient narrator aka Kevin J. Anderson > Corran Horn in universe aka Michael Stackpole.

The Jedi set the trap for him, so they know what they're talking about.

What a great logic. So Vader was the Chosen One destined to defeat Palp but - he didn't defeat Palp ? Nice argument here.
In the eU, which granddaddies the prequels. And considering Anakin, along with the rest of the Jedi bind Palp forever, it's workable.

Oh. He didn't care about all the Jedi arround who could maybe intercept his attempt to posess Anakin. What a great thinker he is.

You mean like Luke or Leia who were too far away to make a difference or the dying guy in the corner who found a hidden reserve of strength?

Where does it say "the entire power of the lightside" that's your interpretation of the lines given. They just take power from everywhere but that's not the entire power from everywhere because that would be a force drain and kill off everything that is drained (see Nihilus and KotoR 2 for details).

Right, because drawing full power from the entire light, IE: everything in the galaxy, is the same as a dark side technique that kills people by sucking them dry. And it says they use the entire power of the light to bind/protect/shield Palp from the darkness. It says they summoned light from all its sources.

Welcome, to a new episode of "Lightsnake VS Logic". Our superhero Lightsnake (equipped with a 1-Bit-memory capacity, enabling him to solve any mathematical addition including only one-digit numbers guaranteed wrong in only 2 hours) has entered the battlefield again.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I want proof it was power. And Ludo is psychotically sychophantic...look how he acts at the funeral! For someone so powerful, Ragnos's spirit couldn't touch Jaden, didn't respond to Sadow violating his last wishes or Sadow basically telling him to **** off. And the Sith admired and revered Ragnos, that's a fact. Why, if ragnos is able to, is he not putting Naga in his place for basically telling him to go away, ignoring what he says and screwing the empire over completely?

And here scene one. Lightsnake tries to downplay everything the ancient Sith did by ignoring facts. Ludo is psychotically sychophantic. Yeah. That's why he dropped on his knees before Sadow too. Oh no. He didn't. And Sadow must be psychotically sychophantic too, because he dropped before Ragnos spirit too.

But hell...Ragnos must be a total blowhard, when saying that the Dark Side itself forces him to speak and the same dark side uses him as "voice" 5,000 years later. Damn it. Not to mention the fact that Ragnos only say that they should choose the battles to fight right. Where did Sadow ignore his advice ? He just has chosen the wrong battles.

And a 5,000 year old spirit is totally compareable to the same spirit right after the death of the original force user, especially if said spirit is weakened because of using the (already nearly killed) body of a weaker force user. And of course let just ignore that this is not even compareable to the living Ragnos.

When your back's against the wall, you're bleeding and yelling feeble 'buts' and you're supposed to be a high Sith Lord. In Palp's defense, his weakness was spelled out before hand and he managed to fight back and mortally wound Vader...once more, EU-wise, he wasn't particularly concerned about losing a body or two. There's no excuse for Dol not reaction, when he knew they were turning on him and apparently had time to put his back to the wall. Trained, centuries old warriors should know hesitance, even by shock can be a matter of life and death.

Meanwhile our dear superhero Lightsnake calls himself "Mr.Idiot" and runs for mayor in the City of Ingorants.
What does Dol have to do with Ragnos power? He's number 5 of the Ancient Sith Empire at best (behind Ragnos, Sadow, Kressh and Simus). That's like saying "Because Thrawn trilogy Luke > Mara Jade, Thrawn trilogy Luke > Sidious". Great "argument" so far.

Vodo freely ADMITTED Kun beat him...Kun defeated Vodo right after Vodo had round one.

Yeah. Let's ignore Vodo's sarcastic comment that Kun used "two lightsabers against his poor staff" thereby breaking it and the fact that Kun didn't have two lightsabers in the Senate - hence Vodo could have thought that he would have been able to stop Kun, which he says directly before the fight starts.

Vodo also doesn't use the force with the other Jedi there, all of whom deserve a shot at Kun as much as Vodo, or get a saber to have a chance of at least injuring Kun...

Of course...because Kun was their student, right ? And you're talking about the same Jedi that should been kept busy by Ulic or did you think about Mrs "Kun pwned me with a handmovement" Sylvar ?

and considering Yoda and Obi-wan were two men and would have to get through a darkside legion, plus the entire imperial army and then to Palpatine who'd only gotten more powerful. Luke was the last ditch effort, the empty gun they threw.

Ah. Great. Obi-Wan and Yoda together couldn get through "a darkside legion" and "the entire imperial army" but Yoda on his own was able to do so. Stop throwing bullshit in here, Lightsnake.

He survived a supernova shockwave, and that's because his tree form's naturally resistant. Did Kun know all about Neti bioloogy?

Of course. Why didn't I think about the natural resistance of wood against fire ? 🙄

I can write it out, as I have before. And the omniscient narrarator, right after the opening credits, which show this is a retelling from five thousand years ago...hands opening a scroll with the title crawl written on them? Why has the omniscient narrarator forgotten the name?

WTF are you talking about ? Odan taking a scroll and reading it ? Or the omniscient narrator telling the story ?

The Jedi set the trap for him, so they know what they're talking about.

Yes. Nice trap. This is why Luke was nearly killed. Of course. Anderson > Stackpole. And in the JA trilogy this scene looks completely different. Why didn't I draw the great conclusion that the action of nearly killing Luke caused Steen guilt when it was all just a trap. And of course - as one of the Jedi involved I would joyfully admit that me and my comrades were just lucky.

You mean like Luke or Leia who were too far away to make a difference or the dying guy in the corner who found a hidden reserve of strength?

You mean: "Despite the fact that he got tooled by a force user in a life support suit before he ignores that fact and gets tooled by a force user in a life support suit again." To err is human. To repeat error is stupid.

Right, because drawing full power from the entire light, IE: everything in the galaxy, is the same as a dark side technique that kills people by sucking them dry. And it says they use the entire power of the light to bind/protect/shield Palp from the darkness. It says they summoned light from all its sources.

Yes. They summoned light from all sources but they didn't use the entirety of said sources. I can take water from 3,000 different buckets without clearing one of them. Understood the concept now ? Yes ? Thanks.

Spirit on Korriban, place that was strongest in Dark Side in the galaxy? And watch how Nai decides to twist around what I said...you're trying to deny Ludo was a sycophant towards Ragnos now? And ragnos is the Dark Side's voice now? As opposed to its manifestation and champion? And I'm curious: why exactly is Ragnos allowing Naga to go ahead with a course of action that he knew would seriously harm the empire? Ragnos didn't expand the Sith empire for a reason

And Ragnos urged them to rally together...Sadow disregarded all of that because he felt they were growing stagnant. Once more, proof Ragnos could've touched them beyond Ludo's words when Ludo was a Ragnos groupie? Why was Ragnos not going after Naga's blatant disrespect?

Dol has to do with the Ancient Sith, you're avoiding the issue there, too. Stop trying to misdirect it and actually respond to what I wrote on Dol's end.

From the Sith War: "Exar Kun defeated me, his own teacher, in combat." Vodo's dumb enough to think perhaps Kun ISN'T packing two sabers, especially when we see Kun wielding them earlier on Yavin 4 in the comic?

Oh, a force push is an owning now? Someone tell Luke he lost the fight with Raynar Thul! And no, Kun wasn't their student...however he only had their brother/lover/beloved under thrall.

Gee, could Yoda have gone through undetected when Palpatine was relatively unguarded and there was no Dark side legion? ROTS novelization.

Wait...a SHOCKWAVE of an explosion= fire? And spout off all you want, Neti are incredibly resistant to other things in their final stages. Ood wasn't hurting too badly when Sedriss was frying him

The Omniscient narrarator doesn't know the name of the planet Odan's on. The scroll is from the narraration...and on the back of the TPB: "The history has become legend." And let's not forget when recounting the history of the Jedi vs. Sith in Marka's flashback we see....Sith fighting with swords when Marka's talking about how the Republic drove them off

Quote: "Exar Kun is walking into a trap" From I, Jedi. they gambled with Luke's life. They set a trap. They won. How exactly does Anderson>Stackpole now? Stackpole's book contradicts nothing except your assumptions. Approved by the editors at LFL? Yep.

Palp killed Vader. And let's ignore the circumstances are nothing alike! That Brand was being propelled by the force almost completely and Palpatine's spirit in his body 'ate him alive with darkness'...once more, took every Jedi of eons past to bind Palp's spirit? Yep. And when Palp was blindsided by the guy who, y'know, has robotic limbs that can punch through durasteel when he's both focused on torturing Luke AND using battle meditation on his fleet...and with Anakin? yes, expect the guy you'd pretty much killed to come out to intercept your victory with the full backing of the light...

Gee, they only drew energy from the light from...everywhere and channeled the entirety of the light .Keep ignoring it, but it'll still be there. From the rocks, the oceans, the stars, the light within themselves, from all the heroes of the alliance..they became luminous beings, same as Jacen at the end of TUF, who became one with the Force

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Spirit on Korriban, place that was strongest in Dark Side in the galaxy? And watch how Nai decides to twist around what I said...you're trying to deny Ludo was a sycophant towards Ragnos now? And ragnos is the Dark Side's voice now? As opposed to its manifestation and champion? And I'm curious: why exactly is Ragnos allowing Naga to go ahead with a course of action that he knew would seriously harm the empire? Ragnos didn't expand the Sith empire for a reason

Dude. You are missing the f*cking point here. Ragnos inferiors showed more power than Sidious has but you keep ignoring it and throw in your assine assertions why Ragnos was in fact not powerful.

And Ragnos urged them to rally together...Sadow disregarded all of that because he felt they were growing stagnant. Once more, proof Ragnos could've touched them beyond Ludo's words when Ludo was a Ragnos groupie? Why was Ragnos not going after Naga's blatant disrespect?

Naga's blatant disrespect which he show by kneeling down when Ragnos' spirit appears ? Can you please tell me why Sadow, able to make entire armies of Massassi turn against their leaders, didn't even try to get rid of Ragnos when he could have done it ? Because of fear maybe - the same reason that made him fall on his knees before Ragnos spirit. Yes...his disrespect goes so far that he waits until Ragnos spirit is gone before doing anything against Ragnos command.

Dol has to do with the Ancient Sith, you're avoiding the issue there, too. Stop trying to misdirect it and actually respond to what I wrote on Dol's end.

Dol has nothing to do with Ragnos power. Period.

From the Sith War: "Exar Kun defeated me, his own teacher, in combat." Vodo's dumb enough to think perhaps Kun ISN'T packing two sabers, especially when we see Kun wielding them earlier on Yavin 4 in the comic?

He clearly enters the fight with the idea to stop Kun. Want to contradict him now ?

Oh, a force push is an owning now? Someone tell Luke he lost the fight with Raynar Thul! And no, Kun wasn't their student...however he only had their brother/lover/beloved under thrall.

Yes...a force push after which we see the victim sitting around and crying when it wanted to kill the force pusher just moments before is pretty much "ownage". And Cay + Nomi had their brother / lover just standing in front of them. Maybe they had other things to do than "trying to own Kun" especially when Vodo commanded them to stay back ?

Gee, could Yoda have gone through undetected when Palpatine was relatively unguarded and there was no Dark side legion? ROTS novelization.

Can you explain to me again why Yoda + Obi-Wan shouldn't be able to do something Yoda could do on his own ? I'm waiting...

Wait...a SHOCKWAVE of an explosion= fire? And spout off all you want, Neti are incredibly resistant to other things in their final stages. Ood wasn't hurting too badly when Sedriss was frying him

Ever seen a supernova ?
Oh my. He wasn't hurting too badly, after spending 4,000 years on a single location without food and after getting hit by the shockwave of a supernova ? I wonder how this has happened. Luke didn't appear to be in top shape during the events on board of the "Eye of Palpatine" in "Children of the Jedi" either. I wonder why...

Quote: "Exar Kun is walking into a trap" From I, Jedi. they gambled with Luke's life. They set a trap. They won. How exactly does Anderson>Stackpole now? Stackpole's book contradicts nothing except your assumptions. Approved by the editors at LFL? Yep.

The "trap" that nearly had all the students force choked to death by Kun's spirt and they were just lucky to have Streen with them who could counter Kun's force choke ? Without Streen or his special ability to manipulate air movements they all would have died there.
And it just took the combined power of all of Luke's students + Luke + Vodo to destroy Kun's spirit. May I remind you that Kun did the same thing on his own against Nadd when he was alive ?

Palp killed Vader. And let's ignore the circumstances are nothing alike! That Brand was being propelled by the force almost completely and Palpatine's spirit in his body 'ate him alive with darkness'...once more, took every Jedi of eons past to bind Palp's spirit? Yep. And when Palp was blindsided by the guy who, y'know, has robotic limbs that can punch through durasteel when he's both focused on torturing Luke AND using battle meditation on his fleet...and with Anakin? yes, expect the guy you'd pretty much killed to come out to intercept your victory with the full backing of the light...

He still made the same mistake by underestimating somebody else and considering that Luke and Leia were able to stop him he made even two mistakes twice. Why didn't he just tool anybody else present completly and ensure only Anakin being alive before trying to take over Anakin's body ? Stupidity ?

Gee, they only drew energy from the light from...everywhere and channeled the entirety of the light .Keep ignoring it, but it'll still be there. From the rocks, the oceans, the stars, the light within themselves, from all the heroes of the alliance..they became luminous beings, same as Jacen at the end of TUF, who became one with the Force

They didn't use the entirety of the light - they just channeled parts of it from the entire galaxy. Man. Read the text instead of handing me the same BS over and over again.

Give me a break! Illusions and use of an electrical weapon? Brakiss was able to manipulate solar flares and was said to very, very probably have the sheer strength to make the sun explode. I don't see the Ancients shattering space, draining worlds, learning every aspect of the dark side, killing people from a distance with just the force, stopping hearts, killing one of the first Dark Jedi ever, butchering centuries old Jedi masters, inferiors being able to match masters drawing up powers from the CORES of planets, requiring every Jedi of every era to bind them, unbalancing the Force by existing or having their deaths weaken the Dark Side...or drain energy from dark side and Jedi sites alike. Not to mention gathering a massive collection of Sith artifacts that he can use at will...or their very power surpassing transcending flesh...or being described as gods. Or titans. Or divinities, or the Dark Side's champion, or its manifestation, or impossible to defeat by fighting...

"Takes more than a ghost etc etc." "What's so important that you couldn't leave us to settle our own differences?"
Proof Ragnos could have touched them? Oh, there is none! And their leaders? Those were NAGA'S loyal massasi. And Ragnos played the Sith against eachother so their infighting would keep them busy.

More misdirection on Dol, he has to do with the ancient Sith and he, a trained warrior for centuries couldnt react to stop a group of inferiors?

Proof Kun didn't nhave two sabers at that point. We saw him using them. And once again: Sylvar, Ulic and Nomi had as much a stake in things.

Sylvar could never be crying because her MASTER died could she? Nope, no ownage.

Ood had four thousand years to recover, which Neti do naturally and was calling energy from Ossus's core....without food? Ok, know anything about trees?

Streen was PART of the trap. and proof it 'took' them all,...that's RIGHT, nothing says it was needed! But it DID say it took every Jedi from eons past to bind Palpatine...and Kun didn't do crap to Nadd, the Sith amulets did.

Gee, maybe-just maybe now- Palpatine was on guard against further attacks, Yoda realized he couldn't defeat Palpatine, Obi-wan needed to guard Luke and Palpatine'd kill Obi-wan in a second or be more than ready this time with Vader and a small legion of guards? And...was were Yoda or Obi getting on world without Vader or Palpatine sensing them? Yoda knew he needed to help Luke when he was older not throw his life away.

Who'd he underestimate? The dying guy nwho suddenly got empowered by the force or his loyal dog for twenty years who proclaimed Luke would join them or die?

Says they became luminous beings, at one with the force, drew light from...everywhere and channeled the entire light to block Palpatine from the dark....Where does it ever say they took 'parts of it'? Where is that even implied?

Shattering space is still more impressive than Sadow using an electrical weapon

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Give me a break! Illusions and use of an electrical weapon? Brakiss was able to manipulate solar flares and was said to very, very probably have the sheer strength to make the sun explode.

Shattering space is still more impressive than Sadow using an electrical weapon

I don't have time to address more then this, so I'll leave the rest for the others to rip apart.

Brakiss was able to manipulate solar flares on a very small scale. Furthermore, you have the quote from the book wrong. It said (paraphrased) that Brakiss might be able to do more then just manipulate solar flares on that small scale, but he doubted he could destroy a star and that he was much to fearful to ever try.

Second, a totally unsupported statement. Exactly how much energy does it take to shatter space. Quantify. In watts if you would.

Small scale? He was making the solar flares dance and wasn't even expending himself. And he never said he doubted it. He said he hoped he never had to try after being severely troubled by Zekk's question. That's one up on Sadow who used an electrical weapon.

Oh, since the force storm was described as the greatest usage of dark side power...ever, the point is moot

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I don't see the Ancients shattering space,

Ah...this is why Bane in Jedi vs Sith suggest to use a force storm on Ruusan which he must have learned from the Ancient Sith Holocron the Brotherhood of Darkness used as source for informations about the Dark Side. Yes. I'm quite sure the ancient Sith invented something just not to use it.

draining worlds

No. Nihilus was just a illusion. Again somebody who learned something from the Ancient Sith.

learning every aspect of the dark side

No. They just left most things behind that Sidious learned about.

killing people from a distance with just the force

Of course they never did that. Crushing stars is no problem, but when killing somebody else from a great distance (which Darth "80%-of-Sidious" Vader could do) they totally incompetent.

killing one of the first Dark Jedi ever,

I wonder when we saw Sidious killing Xanatos...

butchering centuries old Jedi masters

I wonder how Odan and Vodo died....

inferiors being able to match masters drawing up powers from the CORES of planets

Who took a blast from a supernova and remained in their place for 4,000 years. Feat wars anybody ?

requiring every Jedi of every era to bind them,

Which was apparently impossible to do with the spirit of the Ancients.

unbalancing the Force by existing or having their deaths weaken the Dark Side...

Unbalance the Force by existance is done by every Sith. See TPM.

or drain energy from dark side and Jedi sites alike.

Yes. And because of this getting seperated from the own power by a lightside attack....

Not to mention gathering a massive collection of Sith artifacts that he can use at will...

Not to mention that the Ancients created said artifacts and used them at will.

or their very power surpassing transcending flesh...or being described as gods. Or titans. Or divinities, or the Dark Side's champion, or its manifestation, or impossible to defeat by fighting...

Damn it. You mean like the Ancient Sith who are descriped as titans, godlike, most powerful of the most powerful and are used by the Dark Side itself to talk to Sidious ? Meeeow...
Impossible to defeat by fighting ? You're talking about DE "Help ! My hand was cut off by DE Luke Skywalker" Sidious ?

Proof Ragnos could have touched them? Oh, there is none! And their leaders? Those were NAGA'S loyal massasi. And Ragnos played the Sith against eachother so their infighting would keep them busy.

Yes. They totally looked busy fighting each other in the comics. And do you spot the little contradiction between your pretty assumption that Ragnos played them against each other and then returns to tell them that they should cooperate ? No ?

More misdirection on Dol, he has to do with the ancient Sith and he, a trained warrior for centuries couldnt react to stop a group of inferiors?

Wow. Kir Karnos has to do with Sidious. Kan Naga Sadow kill Kir Kanos ? Yes ? OK. Then he can kill Sidious too. Nice argument.

Proof Kun didn't nhave two sabers at that point. We saw him using them. And once again: Sylvar, Ulic and Nomi had as much a stake in things.

Oh well. Maybe because the only weapon he carries is his modified lightsaber ?

Sylvar could never be crying because her MASTER died could she? Nope, no ownage.

And she didn't stop to trying to attack Kun because he send her flying with a handmovement and even tooled her before he became a Dark Sider ? Nope...

Ood had four thousand years to recover, which Neti do naturally and was calling energy from Ossus's core....without food? Ok, know anything about trees?

Oh. Know anything about Neti ? They need water too. Did Ood had water at hand ? No. Did he enter a 4,000 year Force trance to survive ? Yes. Can it be that a 5,000 year old being rewakening from a trance which had no water for 4,000 years can be a little bit out of top shape compared to the same being 4,000 years earlier ? Is this imagineable ?

Streen was PART of the trap. and proof it 'took' them all,...that's RIGHT, nothing says it was needed! But it DID say it took every Jedi from eons past to bind Palpatine...and Kun didn't do crap to Nadd, the Sith amulets did.

No. It's nice how they keep talking about combining their power to stop Kun, Kun says "even together you aren't strong enough to defeat me", then starts force choking them all. That was foreseen by Luke's student of course which is why Streen developed the idea with pumping air into the lungs of the students while getting force choked and Dorskk 81 is surprised that he was able to breath again. Because that was part of the plan. Yes.

Oh you mean the Sith amulet created by the Ancient Sith ? Great. Everybody that creates an amulet = same power than Luke's students combined + Luke + Vodo in spirit form. Nice to know that.

Gee, maybe-just maybe now- Palpatine was on guard against further attacks, Yoda realized he couldn't defeat Palpatine, Obi-wan needed to guard Luke and Palpatine'd kill Obi-wan in a second or be more than ready this time with Vader and a small legion of guards? And...was were Yoda or Obi getting on world without Vader or Palpatine sensing them? Yoda knew he needed to help Luke when he was older not throw his life away.

Hello. Why didn't Yoda took Obi-Wan and then try to defeat Sidious in ROTS together with Obi-Wan ? When Vodo does something like this, is a complete f*ck up. When Yoda does it you come up with idiotic explanations.

Who'd he underestimate? The dying guy nwho suddenly got empowered by the force or his loyal dog for twenty years who proclaimed Luke would join them or die?

+ DE Luke and Leia. Yes. He underestimated them. You know: That's the reason why the Sith fail all the time.

Says they became luminous beings, at one with the force, drew light from...everywhere and channeled the entire light to block Palpatine from the dark....Where does it ever say they took 'parts of it'? Where is that even implied?

It doesn't say they channeled the entire light side. Get it into your head.

Prove how Bane learned that. Thought so...and force storm? OH, that was Bane with twenty six other people, but why sweat the details?

It's called 'scale.' When'd the Ancient Sith drains worlds? Stop the misdirection.

Quote: "He had mastered every aspect of the Dark Side." From the narrarator. I wonder...seriously, do you just ignore everything that doesn't fit Ancient Sith= Gods?

Ancient Sith used electrical weapons to even touch stars. KJA wrote that, arguing with him?

Xanatos? Why would Sidious kill Xanatos? And he killed Arden Lyn, thanks.

Maybe because Ragnos told them to unify? and what do you call Naga vs. Ludo? Logic. Use it. And notice Ragnos was dead when he told them to unify. It worked under his rule when he could keep them in line, not when he was dead.

Since you've decided to ignore Dol was killed by a bunch of inferiors, bringing the Ancients down a peg, I see you have nothing to say to it.

We see Kun pull out two sabers in The Sith war, nice try.

Sylvar COULDN'T POSSIBLY be crying because her father figure died, could she?

Ood drew power out of Ossus's core, along with his natural power, that would only be heightened from 4,000 years worth of meditating.

Streen was there for the purpose of dealing with that and the knowledge Kun wanted him. And yeah, Nadd is near the level of the Ancients now?

Why didn't Obi-wan and Yoda try something together? Yoda knew Obi-wan would slow him down and the obstacle's name is 'Vader'. Unlike Vodo, Yoda's reasons are written down. And Yoda didn't attakc the sith Lord with a stick...nor did he have three people standing there with him.

they became pure conduits to the force, united with the full light side and channelied the entirety of the light against Sidious's darkness. It's right there, accept it or not

Can you please tell me, why we have to go through this stuff over and over again when you yourself acknowledged that you don't know if Ragnos or Sidious is the most powerful - last week ?

No ? Nice.

No, I said it could change depending on who writes it. And that was until people kept on with this "Ragnos owns all" thing.

Still waiting for exact feats or quotes on the ancients. Or are you actually going to keep your word about withdrawing?

Yep Lightsnake, your fanboyism is becoming more and more evident, so you want to play feat wars, in that case you mind as well say Vader > Kun as Vader demonstrated far more feats.

Go back into hibernation.

I think I got rid of him,Deception.All I know is that I beat him in a debate with his own words(trust me,he IS a Sids Fanboy),hopefully he won't be back anytime soon.

Hopefully, but why does he want to convince us all?

Originally posted by Deception
Hopefully, but why does he want to convince us all?

Still waiting. And can the backwards logic stop being applied? and seriously, MM, calm the hell down. At the very least, I can bring out things to support my argument and bring out actual sources...authors adding their own opinions? Horror of horrors

Prove how Bane learned that. Thought so...and force storm? OH, that was Bane with twenty six other people, but why sweat the details?

Silly comment. That's not the point. Irrelevant misdirection, logical fallacy.

Bane specifically stated he learned it from the Ancient Sith. Ergo it was an ancient sith technique. Same with Traya and Nihilus' drain, Kun's amulet blasts, Tavion's use of Ragnos' scepter, etc. etc.

And this is the Sith Empire millennia after it was "wiped to extinction" by the Republic and Empress Teta. What do you think happened? All the stuff just happened to stay perfectly in tact?

Of course not, the remnant knowledge of the Ancient Sith was great enough to make generations of individuals powerful. Naga Sadow was canonically a master of these Sith techniques. Here was a guy that could "see the galaxy in his mind's eye."

Stop downplaying the ancient Sith when Sidious' "most powerful attack evar!1111!" came from them, that's shooting yourself in the foot.

So wait, because the Sith invented all these techniques, because they were in a power hungry society of warlords, because they had centuries to completely immerse themselves in their lore, they were all weak?

Give me a break. Support your argument logically. Don't give me the "zOMG I have these lines from teh sourcebooke!!" and "You have no evidence from ze comics."

Except we know a few things about the Sith: They MOURN Simus's death, and there's little room for interpretation there...we know Ragnos's main tactic as a ruler was to pit the lords against themselves to solidify his own grip.

You have Kreia's quote on this; is that fact? You also have quotes saying that Ragnos was immensely strong and had a frightening grasp on the force. Yes, a frightening grasp on the force. Other sith lords feared him.

Plus, the Vong use TECHNOLOGY, not the Force, and Aleema's illusions are roughly equal with Luke, but could Aleema's illusions be so lifelike you could actually interact with them for days at a time? Illusions are hardly combat savvy and can be dispelled by a skilled force user.

Sadow's illusions weren't dispelled until his concentration was broken even though he attacked Coruscant and the Jedi Temples themselves. So wait, next thing you're say is that "there were no skilled jedi there" and "there were only 6 Jedi on-panel, hear me roar!!"

Ragnos, unlike Eru, is NOT a god....that's taking apples and oranges completely. It says "Take the guy you know's a god against the guy who you know is powerful, but whom you're comparing to other, strong people." It doesn't work. Ragnos is never once stated to completely own every other Darksider/force user, past or present. what Sidious did was apparently created by him and his power and if the Ancients could do what he did without their technology-and KJA wrote that it was the electrical weapon on Sadow's ship- Then Ludo wouldn't have died how he did, and a fleet converging on Sadow's location would never be a problem. We saw one of the Sith Lords get killed by Massassi when he was facing them, yelling they were his slaves.

It wasn't a problem. A fleet converged on Sadow twice, he blew up a red giant and a star cluster and got away twice. His fleet was battered once by Ludo and once by Teta.

That's like saying if Sidious is so uber, a one-armed, already injured and beaten cyborg would not have bench pressed him into a reactor core. More false comparisons and illogical fallacy.

Ragnos has never shown mastery over what Sidious has been shown to. Not his fault, but we know Sidious's knowledge does exceed Marka's, if by default that he knows what the Jedi of old and the Sith of old did...Palpatine is described as a manifestation of the dark side, divinity, a titan, darkness incarnate, so powerful in the dark side, you can't beat him by fighting him, it needs all the Jedi of eons past to seal his soul forever. We've also had the knowledge Palpatine drained worlds of the force and life

We "know" eh? How would you know? Ragnos had centuries to digest and utilize his knowledge. After the destruction of the Sith Empire, it's safe to ASSUME that all the knowledge was still sitting there?

So it said Sidious had learned all, did Sidious learn all the stuff that the NJO Jedi invented after? Of course not. Sidious could only learn all that was available to him.

All that was available to him != mastery of every technique availabe to Marka Ragnos. Dice it however you want, twist canon however you want, you're still not right.

Yes, Tavion drained the force from planets too, is she more powerful than Sidious? Please. The ancients were said in KotOR to make the current Jedi look like children. Freedon Nadd were said to be so horrible that he cast a pall over his entire planet. Kun shook the earth when he walked.

You mixed in a Yoda quote (fallible) as well as a few others in to that list, great job. Maybe I should start pulling out every quote that's ever been said about the ancient Sith and start applying it like it's fact.

Come back when you stop mixing in logical fallacies into that thing you call an "argument."